Random Figure Skating Questions

[caitie]

I recently saw someone say that they prefer salchows because they can be at or around center ice. I've also heard that part of a rink is called The Lutz Corner and some figure skating fans think it is the best place to get seats? I was wondering why certain jumps are tied to certain areas of the ice and if there are any more jumps you're most likely to see at a certain part of the ice.

Also, I was wondering how much information the judges have about what the technical panel is doing when they're scoring GOE and PCS. Do they know the levels of spins, footwork, twizzles, and other elements? Do they know what's under review? Do they know if something has been dinged for > or >>?

 

[gkelly]

I recently saw someone say that they prefer salchows because they can be at or around center ice. I've also heard that part of a rink is called The Lutz Corner and some figure skating fans think it is the best place to get seats? I was wondering why certain jumps are tied to certain areas of the ice and if there are any more jumps you're most likely to see at a certain part of the ice.

There's no requirement for certain jumps to occur in specific places on the ice.

However, the most common setups for edge jumps are on a big circle, often with the jump occurring more or less parallel to the long wall or starting to head back toward center ice.

The most common setups for toe loops and flips are skating forward through the middle of the rink toward the short wall, then turning backward onto the takeoff edge.

The most common setup for a lutz is skating on a very large circle in the less common direction (often the simple setup is back crossover(s), stretch to open the circle larger, another back crossover or two, then hold the back outside takeoff edge) heading into a corner. One reason that the skater is usually heading backward into the jump without being able to see traffic behind her without turning her head, so putting it in the corner means fewer other skaters to have to look for.

However, skaters who put their jumps in less common parts of the ice, especially by using less common and more complex approaches, can be rewarded for doing so, in the GOE and/or the Choreography component, and maybe Transitions.

Also, I was wondering how much information the judges have about what the technical panel is doing when they're scoring GOE and PCS. Do they know the levels of spins, footwork, twizzles, and other elements? Do they know what's under review? Do they know if something has been dinged for > or >>?

Judges do not see the levels that the tech panel calls. I think the codes for the elements being reviewed do get highlighted in another color before/during the review, so judges could see which elements the panel will look at or is currently looking at, but they don't see the tech panel video playback. I think judges at elite competitions do have access to their own video playback if they want to check replay of an element.

Judges may be busy inputting their program components scores and not watch the colors on the elements screen.

After the reviews, the < and << (and e and !) symbols, and asterisks for elements that will earn no points, do show up on the judges' screens, and the judges are supposed to reflect the rotation and edge calls in their GOEs before they finalize their marks.

 

[cinnamon]

Adam's golden locks as a kid are hard to forget, but probably now he would be dark blonde/light brown (not that different from Gracie).... Ashley I think wouldn't be much different from her current colour (maybe not as red), but I am not totally sure, she looks stunning with her currently hair color...I hope she doesn't change it

That time Adam was so sweet
https://twitter.com/sumire_2016
scroll down a bit

 

[karne]

Judges do not see the levels that the tech panel calls. I think the codes for the elements being reviewed do get highlighted in another color before/during the review, so judges could see which elements the panel will look at or is currently looking at, but they don't see the tech panel video playback. I think judges at elite competitions do have access to their own video playback if they want to check replay of an element.

Judges may be busy inputting their program components scores and not watch the colors on the elements screen.

After the reviews, the < and << (and e and !) symbols, and asterisks for elements that will earn no points, do show up on the judges' screens, and the judges are supposed to reflect the rotation and edge calls in their GOEs before they finalize their marks.

Hmm, I will have to double check this, but I think the <, <<, e and ! symbols show up as the panel calls them and they're entered during the program. If it's reviewed, the box is marked red, however, so the judges know the TP is looking at it.

At an event with video the judges have their own ability to do video playback, but they can only play or replay. They don't have access to the slo-mo, super slo-mo, frame by frame etc that the TP does.

 

[caitie]

Thanks so much for your answers, guys! You are true founts of knowledge.

 

[gkelly]

Hmm, I will have to double check this, but I think the <, <<, e and ! symbols show up as the panel calls them and they're entered during the program.

It probably depends on the blatantness of the error and the confidence of the tech panel.

If a jump is really obviously not even close to rotated, or if there's a really big change of edge on a flutz, the panel could call the "downgrade" or "edge" in real time. But in most cases I'd think they'd need to review to determine whether < is more appropriate than << or ! rather than e. In which case, they would probably just call "review" during the program and nothing would show up on the judges' screens until they'd actually done the review.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Is Richard Callahan still coaching? I've never seen him with a skater since Tara won the Oly gold in 98.

 

[dorispulaski]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Callaghan

He now lives in Naples, Florida, and coaches at Germain Arena.

http://skateeverblades.com/figure-skating/figure-skating/

He charges $59 an hour.

ETA Thanks gkelly, per half hour

 

[gkelly]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Callaghan

http://skateeverblades.com/figure-skating/figure-skating/

He charges $59 an hour.

"Lesson rates are per half hour."

I had to check, because $59/h would be incredibly low for a coach of his accomplishments, even in an area with low cost of living.

 

[dorispulaski]

Posting way too early

 

[musicfan80]

Here's something I have wondered and I don't know if it's too dumb or nerdy: Do differences in blade design really make a difference in being about to do elite level jumps/spins/footwork? Is one design better or does it really depend on the skater?

For example, I noticed that Max Aaron and Joshua Farris have changed their blades from a couple of seasons ago and the design change was the same for both men. I don't know if they have use or are using the same exact blades, but I believe they wear different boots (in case that matters). I think Max wears Edea and Joshua wears Riedell.

Photos:
Max Aaron
2013 Nationals
2015 Nationals - Blade Design Change
2016 Nationals

Joshua Farris
2013 Nationals
2014 Nationals
2014 Stars on Ice - Blade Design Change
2014-2015 Season

For reference - it looks like Jason Brown has kept the same blade design:
2014 Olympics
2015 Worlds
2016 Team Challenge Cup

Or is it just a case of them trying some blades and liking skating with them better? I don't think there was a huge change one way or another in Max's or Joshua's jump quality. Spins and footwork - sure - could that been behind the change in blades?

 

[karne]

I imagine it's personal preference. At some point, Joshua and Max must have tried the new blades - the company may have even approached them with a pair and offered them to try - and liked them better than the old ones. Jason obviously likes his blades as they are, and sees no reason to change them. The difference in feel would probably be negligible to you and me, but could be quite significant to skaters of that high level.

And yes, Joshua, Jason and Max are all in different boots - Joshua is Riedell, Jason is Jackson, and Max is in Edeas. But IIRC they are all in the same blade company - MK/John Wilson.

 

[Tavi...]

At the Olympics and at least fairly recently, Jason was wearing Ultima Matrix Supreme blades. Whether he has recently switched to MK/ John Wilson I can't say.

http://www.jacksonultima.com/static/2015WorldSkaters.pdf

 

[karne]

At the Olympics and at least fairly recently, Jason was wearing Ultima Matrix Supreme blades. Whether he has recently switched to MK/ John Wilson I can't say.

http://www.jacksonultima.com/static/2015WorldSkaters.pdf

Nope, I think you're right and he's still in Ultimas. I was just having a moment of daft.

 

[StitchMonkey]

OK so i have a question about how GOE is calculated on combos. And can't figure out how to asked it without it being long and awkward. Page 2 of this is source for values.

http://static.isu.org/media/207718/1944-sptc-sov-communication-2015-2016.pdf

So a 2Z is worth 2.1 with a max GOE of .9 So the math is 2.1+(x*.3)=Total Value... where x is the average of GOE given. So unless I am wrong (Please tell me if i am and where) a +1 is written as math as 2.1+(1*.3)=2.4 and a +3 is written as math as 2.1+(3*.3)=3. And so on and so forth for whatever the average GOE is.

For a 4Z the formula should be 13.6+(x*1)= Total Value for positive and.... now i discovered another question. For negative GOE, which has its own scale, I think it should be 13.6+(x*1.2)= Total Value but... while 1.2*1= right answer and 1.2*2=right answer. 1.2*3= 3.6... and the chart says 4. So... yeah how does that work? Do they round up? and if so... where is the rounding point. 2.1? 2.5? 2.9?. Did it get arbitrary at some point rather than factored?

For my real question. What would the math look like for a combo. Is the x based on the first jump? the highest value jump (so quad vs double) or is each jump scored on its own scale.

so would a 2Z+3T with +2 GOE be
6.4+(2*.3)
or
6.4+(2*.7)
or
[2.1+(2*.3)]+[4.3+(2*.7)]

I hope the general idea of what I am asking is clear... i apologize for any typos, or issues that would make math lovers cringe. As bad as I am with math... seeing the answer in an equation is likely the way that "how to calculate combos" is going to make the most sense to me.

 

[gkelly]

I know that the GOE for a combo is based on the highest value jump in the combo.

I think that if a jump is downgraded then the GOE values as well as the base value of the jump with the same takeoff and one fewer revolutions would apply.

For the calculations, I think it would make more sense to add the base value + GOE for each judge separately (base value would be the same for all of them) and then average the totals. But I don't know how the computer algorithm is written, nor where the rounding takes place.

I remember in 2008 when there was the tie between Weir and Lysacek at US Nationals that there was some discussion of the rounding process and the conclusion was that the computer program was not using the most accurate method, and if it had used the better method Weir would have won. I wouldn't know whether there have been any changes in the programming since then. That's not specific to jump GOEs, but to all values that don't have two or fewer decimal places.

 

[Klarnet]

Where exactly is it stated how wc medalists can pick their grand prix designations in order of placement and the rule that they're not supposed to be at the same designations? General rules and grand prix announcement do not have it

 

[dorispulaski]

The announcement says skaters placing 1-6 at Worlds are assigned two GPs each by a draw and offers no further info.

The season preview gives a little different info:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/news/2015/10/gp-preview

Selection of skaters

The skaters are seeded and invited to the six Grand Prix of Figure Skating events based on the results of the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2015. Skaters/couples who have placed 1 to 6 in each of the four categories are seeded and assigned to two events. Skaters/ couples who have placed 7-12 at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships are selected for two ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events, and skaters with a top 24 high seasons best score as well as those placed in the top 24 of the World Standings can also be invited. Medalists from the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships and the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final gold medalists are guaranteed one spot.
In order for a skater/couple to be eligible to compete at a Grand Prix event, a minimum total score or minimum technical score must have been achieved in the previous or current season in an ISU event (GP, JGP, Championships, WTT or selected international competitions). Exceptions apply to host country skaters, previously ranked skaters or split ranked couples who return with new partners.

The assignment takes place at the annual selection meeting.

I would love to see more explicit description of the process!

 

[Klarnet]

For a 4Z the formula should be 13.6+(x*1)= Total Value for positive and.... now i discovered another question. For negative GOE, which has its own scale, I think it should be 13.6+(x*1.2)= Total Value but... while 1.2*1= right answer and 1.2*2=right answer. 1.2*3= 3.6... and the chart says 4. So... yeah how does that work? Do they round up? and if so... where is the rounding point. 2.1? 2.5? 2.9?. Did it get arbitrary at some point rather than factored?

Your question got me interested too, for some reason I always thought that as negative GOE exceeds -2 point, they calculate it in accordance with -3 scale, like 13.6+(x*4/3), but that's not the case.
They still factor it, just bearing in mind the difference in scale between -2.4 and -4, which is 1.6. I'll try to explain, but you might understand it better looking at protocols.

If we look deeper into the scores, there are basically 6 GOE grades a skater might get between 0,1, 2 and 3 (as there are 7 judge scores,with highest and lowest thrown out), so the pace is 1/7 and factored pace 1.2/7~0.17. Now for the case with -4 sudden appearance, starting from -2.4 point we just use different factor for the pace which is 1.6, mentioned above: 1.6/7~0.23. With that break of pattern figures look totally out of the blue in protocols.

GOE from judges Total GOE (factored)
14/7=2 ------------------------------2.4
15/7=...------------------------------2.4+0.23=2.63
16/7=...------------------------------2.4+0.23*2=2.86
17/7=...------------------------------2.4+0.23*3=3.09
18/7=...------------------------------2.4+0.23*4=3.31
19/7=...------------------------------2.4+0.23*5=3.54
20/7=...------------------------------2.4+0.23*6=3.77
21/7=3-------------------------------4

I guess those figures are just written into computers.

Examples (from the last WC):
Brendan Kerry got for his 4T in LP average GOE (-9/7)=1.29. We factor it normally by1.2 and get final GOE 1.29*1.2=1.54, which we see in protocol.
Denis Ten got for his 4S in LP average GOE (-20/7)=2.86. Final GOE says -3.77
Javier Fernandez got for his 4S in LP average GOE (-19/7)=2.71. Final GOE says -3.54

I hope it is understandable, although looks so clunky. I wonder why they don't just use bigger pace for quads, like 1.3 or 1.4, then maximum would be -3.9 or -4.2, would be much easier.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I would love to see more explicit description of the process!

Wouldn't we all!

Every season we seem to be asking how the allocation process works, and although we can find out how it works in theory (from the rules), we have no idea how it works in practice. Because it just cannot be as straightforward as the rules suggest.

---

Now for my stupid question.

Last Monday was the 3 year anniversary of the death of local skater Katie Scarbrough (née Allan) from bowel cancer. While visiting her Facebook page, I read a comment which mentioned another local skater who (like Katie) was also a former British Junior Ladies Champion. She was tagged, but because she uses her married name now, I wasn't sure just who she was (she has a common first name).

I went to the British Championships page on Wikipedia to try to see if I could work it out from there, and was dismayed to find that although the Junior tables went back to the 2001/2002 season, they only had results for all categories from the 2009/2010 season onwards. And it was a similar story for Novice level - the tables went back to the 2006/2007 season, but only had results from the 2009/2010 season onwards.

So, I made it my mission to fill in the missing results.

Thanks to Die Eiskunstlauf-Ecke's extensive results archive, I was able to extend the Junior tables back to the 1997/1998 season. (Although, it would have been nice to take it back to the 1995/1996 season, as that was when Katie won Junior Ladies). And I was also able to fill in the missing Novice results.

HOWEVER, Die Eiskunstlauf-Ecke did not have the results from the British Championships held in the 2005/2006 season (they only had the results from the British Solo Dance Championships for that season). And I cannot find anywhere else that has them either (Stats On Ice only goes back to the 2006/2007 season).

So, does anybody know where I can find all the results from the British Championships that were held in the 2005/2006 season?

I would be immensely grateful for any help, as having an empty line for the 2005/2006 season on the Junior tables is really bugging me!

By the way, for those who are interested, the skater I was looking for was Vicky Hutchinson, who won the Junior Ladies title on home ice in the 1999/2000 season (as well as winning the bronze medal the previous 2 years over in England).

CaroLiza_fan