Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

[Lys]

CSG's point is valid to me.

Collision or no collision, the job of the judges was to give scores to the free skate that Hanyu presented.
(And as always, scores that do not cut any slack to an injured skater.)

Obviously, the collision was dangerous. Hanyu chose to go forward with competing -- without anyone requiring or asking him to.
If any official could have intervened, it was the referee, not the judges.
Whether Hanyu should have competed after the collision was not a decision for the judges to make. And the question should not have been a consideration for the judges as they were giving scores.

I find it funny that the scoring of a particular event - very few people would say it wasn't overscored and that some people repeated ad nauseam how much over the top it was - is now used as an example to say Nathan's PCS weren't either (ah, logic: you funny thing)


At best, great majority of people would say that that event was such an outliner for its circumstances, it's pretty easy to see why the judges weren't really themselves either (which doesn't make the scoring any better, just an understanding of what happened).

 

[ice coverage]

... At best, great majority of people would say that that event was such an outliner for its circumstances, it's pretty easy to see why the judges weren't really themselves either (which doesn't make the scoring any better, just an understanding of what happened).

Exactly my point: "doesn't make the scoring any better."

 

[dasani]

Well, when a program with 5 falls can get 84 PCS, somehow a program with 5 quads getting 88 PCS doesn't seem particularly outrageous to me. ...

Yes, you're right, let's compare that one time where Hanyu got high PCs after bombing BECAUSE HE JUST HAD A CONCUSSION, and where honestly the question should not be his score but wether he should have skated AT ALL ..., to Nathan Chen's PC scores... What is your point ??? ...

CSG's point is valid to me.
Collision or no collision, the job of the judges was to give scores to the free skate that Hanyu presented.
(And as always, scores that do not cut any slack to an injured skater.)

Obviously, the collision was dangerous. Hanyu chose to go forward with competing -- without anyone requiring or asking him to.
If any official could have intervened, it was the referee, not the judges.
Whether Hanyu should have competed after the collision was not a decision for the judges to make. And the question should not have been a consideration for the judges as they were giving scores.

The issue to me here is, is it fair to use that one time scenario for the discussion in what we are trying to discuss here? Is the "OMG 5 falls but still win a medal" scenario reflective or relevant at all to what is being discussed here? Or is this just the usual endless tactic by CSG to pull this wildcard out everytime he feels the need to pull Hanyu in with any discussion as he desires? I suppose that's supposed to be his idea of magic trick to shutup all the Hanyu fans? But as many have mentioned, this discussion is not even about Hanyu vs Chen.

What happened at CoC was, whether you agree with the judging or not, an extreme rare case that happened on the competitive ice (or at least I do hope this is the case). We are talking about the judging panel who in the 6-min warm-up witnessing in person the two skaters collided in full force right in front of their own eyes. Being human as they are, the judges were probably in a state of shock at what happened throughout the rest of the event themselves. So I would say the judging of the PCS in this case is not under the normal circumstances. Should this be an excuse of how things are judged? Probably not. Is it relevant to the current state of how PCS are being judged? I'm sorry, I just don't see how it is related at all.

I totally agree that the judges should give score (PCS and GOE) to the actual skate that is being presented on ice.
NOT because there is potential with the skater.
NOT because the skater used to show promises in junior days when skating "easier" programs.
NOT because the skater took dance classes for some good time so it must be in their blood and it will come shining through with maturity given time.
NOT because they represent certain nationality.
NOT because they are doing the toughest quad so they deserve better GOE for a jump that would only get an avg GOE if it was a triple jump.

 

[karne]

Hanyu falling five times was obviously a result of him being in a condition which he should not have been allowed to skate in, and I will maintain until the end of time that Orser or someone else should have physically restrained him if necessary to prevent him from doing so.

HOWEVER, the collision (in which TWO skaters were involved though the way Hanyu fans carry one would make you think there was only on or that Han Yan was perfectly fine) does NOT mitigate the absolutely AWFUL judging in that event. I am adamant: you should not be getting over 90 PCS by falling on your backside twice, but you absolutely should NOT be getting 84 PCS if you fall FIVE TIMES, regardless of the reason for those falls.

That said, which I notice CSG and other Canadians will avoid mentioning, you also should not win a Grand Prix event by falling on your backside four times, either...

 

[narcissa]

^ A competition where 100% of the people involved should plead temporary insanity is not a prime example for anything.

I think 2014 CoC is one we all want to put behind us........so please

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The issue to me here is, is it fair to use that one time scenario for the discussion in what we are trying to discuss here?

I'm not sure if I'd call it unfair, but it's useless. CSG (and some other people) constantly try to excuse one sh!tty example of judging with another. As if it was only about 2 or 3 skaters or 2 wrongs would make a right. But it's not.

That said, the judging at 2014 CoC was absolutely bogus, but yes, I really did not envy the judges who had to go out and watch that. It's not just the knowledge that these skaters were injured, it's seeing it live right in front of their eyes. And if Yuzu is so constantly overscored, favored and wins all the competitions sliding around on his backside, you'd think people could come up with a different example then 2014 CoC all the time. Yes, the scoring was awful. But I'd rather forget about that one for different reasons.

 

[dasani]

I think 2014 CoC is one we all want to put behind us........so please

Well, I've already mentioned 2 years ago on this board if i get a dollar everytime CSG pulls out the CoC argument I'll become a millionaire soon. And here we are, years later, and I'm still seeing the same old talk on completely irrelevant discussions.

It's totally valid for people to think the CoC scoring is messed up. But it's totally NOT okay to use that as a blanket statement to apply for every argument as if that situation is applicable for EVERY SINGLE competition. I mean, unless you guys think the judging panel are constantly in some state of shock when they are scoring the event (but then again, it's not totally impossible.....)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Temporary insanity, indeed.

CSG's point is valid to me.

Collision or no collision, the job of the judges was to give scores to the free skate that Hanyu presented.
(And as always, scores that do not cut any slack to an injured skater.)

This is why it's brought up. Not to re-live the concussion, but to use it as an example of poor judging.

Osmond fell 5 times in her FS at Skate Canada 2015... as a result of a horrific fall in her SP. If she were as popular as Hanyu at the time and got equivalent CoC judging treatment (84% PCS), her PCS would have been around 65-67 instead of 55 (which, IMO, was also still generous). At least she was placed last in the segment, and that's because the judges marked down her PCS - never mind her injury, never mind that she was on home ice. For Hanyu to have still been ahead of Ge, Nguyen and Dornbush in the FS segment (and arguably, Dornbush overall), was really bad judging. Ge was practically clean and his components were 10 points behind a guy who fell 5 times, Nam was almost clean with a quad and two 3As but his components were 16 points behind a guy who fell 5 times.

As horrific as the collision was, it's not all about Hanyu and Yan -- the judges still had a job to do, and had to be fair to the other competitors who were present, and fair in their assessment of all athletes. The circumstances leading up to the bad judging doesn't absolve the judges of poor scoring, nor does it automatically dismiss this event from the conversation surrounding bad judging.

 

[narcissa]

I mean, unless you guys think the judging panel are constantly in some state of shock when they are scoring the event (but then again, it's not totally impossible.....)

Maybe some people think landing 5 quads in a free skate is as shock-inducing as two skaters colliding and bleeding from their heads and STILL bleeding while they skate programs with multiple quads and triple axels and then having to be carried off the ice straight into an ambulance...................okay

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm not sure if I'd call it unfair, but it's useless. CSG (and some other people) constantly try to excuse one sh!tty example of judging with another. As if it was only about 2 or 3 skaters or 2 wrongs would make a right. But it's not.

That said, the judging at 2011 CoC was absolutely bogus, but yes, I really did not envy the judges who had to go out and watch that. It's not just the knowledge that these skaters were injured, it's seeing it live right in front of their eyes. And if Yuzu is so constantly overscored, favored and wins all the competitions sliding around on his backside, you'd think people could come up with a different example then 2011 CoC all the time. Yes, the scoring was awful. But I'd rather forget about that one for different reasons.

Um, and what do you call people beating the dead horse that was 2013 Worlds (which, mind you, happened over a year prior to CoC 2014), or 2012 Worlds (which wasn't even controversial unless you're a diehard Dai fan and disregard math/how CoP scoring works)? I suppose because Chan didn't injure himself, it's fair game to continue talking about that one, eh?

And, contrary to what you constantly try to profess, I'm not excusing any of this judging. I'm condemning all of it. It's awful judging in 2013 Worlds as it is in 2014 CoC. This whole "the judges were in shock" argument is also a ridiculous point too - you weren't in the judges' heads as much as I was, and they still had a job to do.

 

[Fayruza]

So basically, folks - I'll sum up CSG's point to you - you're NOT allowed to question Nathan's PCS because of what took place CoC 2014. Even if you question CoC 2014 Hanyu PCS marks.
His logic rules!

 

[ice coverage]

Nathan's five-quad FS was unprecedented ... and could be considered an outlier as well.

A different type of outlier from Hanyu's post-collision FS, but an outlier nonetheless.

For me, it is a slippery slope to pick and choose when outlier circumstances might or might not be understandable as something judges can or cannot ignore.

---

Maybe some people think landing 5 quads in a free skate is as shock-inducing as two skaters colliding and bleeding from their heads and STILL bleeding while they skate programs with multiple quads and triple axels and then having to be carried off the ice straight into an ambulance...................okay

LOL, I already had written the first part of my post above before you added yours to the thread.

I wouldn't go so far as to use the words "shock-inducing," but Nathan's FS was an outlier.

"Outlier" being the word that I think Lys meant to use above in referring to Hanyu's post-collision FS.

... At best, great majority of people would say that that event was such an outliner for its circumstances ...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Um, and what do you call people beating the dead horse that was 2013 Worlds (which, mind you, happened over a year prior to CoC 2014), or 2012 Worlds (which wasn't even controversial unless you're a diehard Dai fan and disregard math/how CoP scoring works)? I suppose because Chan didn't injure himself, it's fair game to continue talking about that one, eh?

And, contrary to what you constantly try to profess, I'm not excusing any of this judging. I'm condemning all of it. It's awful judging in 2013 Worlds as it is in 2014 CoC. This whole "the judges were in shock" argument is also a ridiculous point too - you weren't in the judges' heads as much as I was, and they still had a job to do.

Why do you ask me? Do I run around constantly talking about WC 2012 or 2013?

And yes, you are just defending Nathans PCS here, aren't you? And for whatever reason, you always bring 2014 CoC into discussion like that.
You were in those judges heads more than me? Do tell.
And while you're at it, still tell about those interesting people complaining about Chan winning 2012/13 WC while now crying Yuzu should have won 4CC. I'm still waiting for that

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Maybe some people think landing 5 quads in a free skate is as shock-inducing as two skaters colliding and bleeding from their heads and STILL bleeding while they skate programs with multiple quads and triple axels and then having to be carried off the ice straight into an ambulance...................okay

The judges have one job to do: assess the skater from the time they take the ice and the time they leave the ice. They are getting paid to be professional, and remove things like collisions and heads still bleeding from the equation. Duhamel and Radford should be given sympathy points for her elbowing him in the face at 4CC on their twist; nor should Hao Zhang's fall mean that the Zhangs' throw fall never happened in that program; nor should Ito's practice collision with Laetitia Hubert mean the judges should ignore her going over the boards in the SP; nor should Elvis grimacing at the end of his Olympic program give him bonus points for sticking with it -- the judges should deduct for any errant element, and its effect on the program as it happens.

While judges are human and prone to reaction, they're also the ones ultimately determining the scores of these skaters AND their standing compared to other skaters -- who have also trained to compete and be assessed fairly and consistently. It's not impossible for someone to think BOTH a) that incident was horrific and b) the judges assessed that program awfully.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Nathan's five-quad FS was unprecedented ... and could be considered an outlier as well.
A different type of outlier from Hanyu's post-collision FS, but an outlier nonetheless.

Two skaters bashing their heads together, one bleeding all over and losing consciousness on the ice and the other losing consciousness off ice, then later skating is exactly the same level of an outlier as a skater doing five quads, which he's done before, and four quads before that, when another skater did four quads before him?

Yes, that's totally comparable.

Hmm ... I am smelling something strange, wonder what that is.

 

[dasani]

Nathan's five-quad FS was unprecedented ... and could be considered an outlier as well.

A different type of outlier from Hanyu's post-collision FS, but an outlier nonetheless.

For me, it is a slippery slope to pick and choose when outlier circumstances might or might not be understandable as something judges can or cannot ignore.

Don't see how a 5-quad program can be considered an outlier when the ISU rulebook clearly listed out how all quad jumps and PCS and GOE should be scored.
If someone start pulling a quint jump in the middle of a program in Helsinki, then I would call that an outlier.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So basically, folks - I'll sum up CSG's point to you - you're NOT allowed to question Nathan's PCS because of what took place CoC 2014. Even if you question CoC 2014 Hanyu PCS marks.
His logic rules!

Yes, that's precisely what I said. Oh my, you've hit the nail on the head with that one. :sarcasm:

Of course you're allowed to challenge Nathan's PCS. Or any score you see. Although, evidently, nobody is allowed to use CoC as an example of poor judging or even mention the event without being labelled insensitive.

 

[Lys]

I wouldn't go so far as to use the words "shock-inducing," but Nathan's FS was an outlier.

"Outlier" being the word that I think Lys meant to use above in referring to Hanyu's post-collision FS.

Yes, thanks for the correction

And I can't agree with you here. What happened at CoC14 is something completely outside of what should happen in a competition.
What Nathan did is something judges are supposed to know how to handle, judging wise. If they can't handle it and judge it on its own but they are in a state of shock over it, sorry, but for me they shouldn't be allowed to judge.

That aside, I still don't see how two "bad" should equal to a "don't care, let's accept everything".
If what happened at CoC14 was wrong (but hey, Yuzu there had the second highest TES, PCS should follow TES, isn't what some people are telling us? <- this is sarcasm), there is no reason to just accept other wrongdoings. In PCS and GOE both, I repeat.

Which is why I really don't understand - trolling purposes aside - why to bring back that competition to justify the current status of PCS and GOE judging. (I don't know, maybe I or other should spell it out better? Yes, CoC14 wasn't judged correctly. Now can we go over it and speak of what's happening now and underline how often GOEs and PCS are not given out accordingly rulebook?)

 

[karne]

The judges have one job to do: assess the skater from the time they take the ice and the time they leave the ice. They are getting paid to be professional,

Well, actually, they're not. GP judges get their expenses covered, but no judge, at any level, is paid to judge.

 

[ice coverage]

LOL at how everyone (including me ) clings to the belief that their subjective opinion should override someone else's.

How "shock-inducing."

BTW, Hanyu's post-collision PCS did have ripple effects.
If he had placed third at Cup of China, he would not have qualified for the GPF. Jason Brown would have qualified for the sixth GPF slot ... it would have been Jason's first GPF ... sigh ...

---

... If they can't handle it and judge it on its own but they are in a state of shock over it ..

Again, I did not say that Nathan's FS was "shock-inducing." I was quoting from narcissa's post.