2022-23 Coaching, Country and Discipline changes

[CaroLiza_fan]

At least Ciera is competing on an national level in UK and Irland. Internationally she competed already 2 years ago for Irland. I know several skaters that a member of 2 or more feds as long as they compete only on a national level, it is possible.

Aha! I didn't know that was allowed, but it explains something that was puzzling me.

In March, Ciera had competed at the Qualifiers for the British Championships, a week after she had competed at the Skate London Spring Open representing Ireland. And I was wondering if maybe the Lee Valley Club had put her down for Ireland by mistake, knowing that she was planning to switch. (Let's face it, the club has a lot going on at the moment, with their rink getting re-built. Little mistakes like this can happen).

But, by the sounds of things, it seems that she has been hedging her bets for a while.

Well, given that she is likely to be moving up to Seniors soon, Ireland is definitely the best option for Ciera. There are a lot of skaters competing in Senior Ladies for the UK, whereas there has been nobody competing in Senior Ladies for Ireland since Clara Peters retired.

However, that is likely to change next season. Robyn Foster, Elizabeth Golding, and Adare and Dracy Condon all age out of Juniors at the end of this month. However, none of them were competing at Nationals this week. And if you look at the National Team page of the ISAI website, only Robyn is still there. Elizabeth and the Condon twins no longer have profiles on the page. Have they left the Irish team?

With potentially 4 skaters competing at Senior level next season, it would probably be worthwhile for Ciera to stay in Juniors with Sophia for this coming season at least. And then move up the following season, when it is clearer who is in the field.

Assuming that they are all still in the mix, if you look at their scores in Juniors over the past few seasons, Ciera, Sophia, Robyn and Elizabeth all tend to score very similarly (the Condon twins tend to score lower). So, the international assignments are likely to end up getting shared out between the four of them. Especially if two of them are competing in Juniors, and two of them are competing in Seniors. If Ciera stayed with the UK, there is practically no chance of getting international assignments because there are more skaters in the mix that score higher than her.

In conclusion, I think now is the time for Ciera to finally nail her colours to the wall and opt for Ireland.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I am not sure how Castelli-Tran came into the picture (no need for the history lesson, you know, we are all fans of the sport and we know these things ... ) In any case, we will just have to wait and see. Thierry is an extremely gifted pairs partner with super strong lifts, good throw technique and steady jumps up to the 3Flip. With the right partner, he could manage much better results than previously. Skate Canada may not want to grant him a release so quickly... Apparently, rumours say that Soucisse-Firus are not getting theirs this year... and at this point, in the current state of things, I would think Thierry is a stronger asset than Soucisse-Firus. The official news may exactly be pending the release of one or the other skater, so I will wait for that.

For sure, it's going to be up to Gabbie & Thierry to decide. I think there could be opportunities for them in both countries. But still, a lot of work to do no matter which country they represent. And now I ask why Soucisse/Firus are so relevant as ice dancers to Thierry's situation?

SC ought to release S/F with all they've been through with the huge depth in Canadian ice dance! S/F have been trying hard for a long time, and they are simply treading water in Canada. Seemingly, all they want is the chance to compete at Worlds and Olympics, which they will not get in Canada. SC needs to release them. It's harsh to make them wait.

Thanks for the Deanna/ Max interview. She answered a question about passports. Of course, ease of citizenship is always a factor. Still, I do not see where she answered a specific question regarding having to deeply ponder which country to represent. Plus, I think Deanna would be diplomatic with anything she said after-the-fact of having departed the U.S. and sought her release.

It's well-known that at 2019 U.S. Nats (after placing third with Nate), Deanna was annoyed about the scoring. She spoke up at the press conference, politely signalling her frustration. Of course, at that time, the U.S. was knee-deep in talented pairs teams.

My point: when Deanna started working with Max, and they partnered after realizing how well-suited they were, it was at a time when Canada was still rebuilding in pairs, post 2018 Olympics. The only solid teams SC had were M-T/M and Walsh/Michaud, and even they were vulnerable. Canada had lost a number of teams to retirement and injury. Ben/ Brooke were looking good technically coming up from juniors. Matte/ Ferland were reliable, but not yet top senior competitors. Thus, to help gain three spots for future seasons, SC was happy to support James/ Radford in the Olympic season.

I don't run this down to tell anyone anything that isn't known. But let's be honest, it was a no-brainer for Deanna/ Max to compete for Canada. I never suspected otherwise. Max had been waiting for years to find a partner who matched his abilities. They put their heads down, worked hard, and they were ready to step up when needed last season.

As far as Deanna's response regarding getting her Canadian passport, she knew about her chances for Canadian citizenship when she first moved there. She's gutsy and determined, which fans in the U.S. always knew about her, and which Canadian fans eventually discovered. No way would Deanna ever say publicly that she was done competing in pairs for the U.S. But I never thought for a second that she and Max would compete for the U.S. Skate Canada was in huge need of solid pairs prospects at that time. And it was Max's dream to represent his country with a partner who could match his abilities.

 

[el henry]

Deanna and Max decided to skate for Canada because Deanna could get citizenship faster in Canada. At the time, Canada's pairs program was certainly as strong as the US. Take away Alexa and Chris, ETA: Brandon of course) it still is. The "competition" was not the deciding factor.

Canada's Deanna Stellato-Dudek and Maxime Deschamps find their rhythm - Figure Skaters Online

By Claire Cloutier, Team FSO contributing writer Photos by Robin Ritoss, Jordan Cowan (On Ice Perspectives) and Deanna Stellato-Dudek In 2016, Deanna Stellato-Dudek came back to competitive figure skating because she had unfinished business with the sport. Her singles career ended prematurely in...

figureskatersonline.com

I called my contacts [in the U.S.] and asked how long it would take for a Canadian citizen to get American citizenship. They said, impossible by 2022, and highly unlikely by 2026. Max has some contacts in Canada, and he did the same. They said, highly unlikely by 2022, but likely by 2026. That’s what made our decision of what country we were going to. The Olympics was the big goal. We both want to go to the Olympics. So that was the deciding factor; what country we could possibly get citizenship from in time.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

My recollection is that Castelli/Tran were shafted by USFS (not given the assignments their placements at Nationals should have earned them) because of their situation. I thought it was because they would not be Olympic-eligible for a long time, if ever. However, I now see it may have been because they weren't training in the US. Their training in Canada certainly lessened Mervin's chances of getting US citizenship, which were sketchy anyway.

Shafted by U.S. figuring skating? Nah! C/T came in third at their first U.S. Nationals, and they could have placed higher had they performed better. They were widely admired and equally supported by their U.S. competitors and by U.S. figure skating. I'm never shy about knocking US fgsk where and when they deserve to be knocked. This situation with C/T is NOT in any way the fault of US figsk!

During the 2015-16 season, Ice Network did a 3-part feature on C/T and Julie Marcotte, examining the choreography process for C/T's fp (the popular Journey medley). Gee whiz, I miss the focus and variety Ice Network brought to figure skating coverage -- which is so sorely lacking today.

So nope, Marissa was a U.S. champion and an Olympian, while Mervin was a World bronze medalist, and a superb pairs partner. Mervin has been great with everyone he's partnered! A lot was expected of C/T. I think the main obstacle they faced was not having a good strategy and goal-setting fully worked out. They knew it would take time for Mervin's citizenship to come through, but they were too unfocused in determining what their goals were. Having to wait for Mervin's release also hampered their progress and momentum competitively.

C/T had the potential to be a top U.S. team, so I think they should have sought top-notch coaching in the U.S. I'm not saying Marcotte isn't a good coach. Mervin had a comfort level with him. And Julie worked well for them as a choreographer. But, bottom line, C/T's partnership ran into obstacles that didn't get resolved. Marissa needed a better throw jump arsenal, and their sbs jump inconsistencies wore away at their confidence. Marissa also later admitted that she had difficulty adjusting to a different partner. I think this was in part because Simon Shnapir had been so tall.

I will always fondly remember C/T. They skated to a Gala exhibition one year which I still enjoy watching, and will never forget. It's a lovely example of sexy pairs skating.

 

[4everchan]

Deanna and Max decided to skate for Canada because Deanna could get citizenship faster in Canada. At the time, Canada's pairs program was certainly as strong as the US. Take away Alexa and Chris, it still is. The "competition" was not the deciding factor.

Canada's Deanna Stellato-Dudek and Maxime Deschamps find their rhythm - Figure Skaters Online

By Claire Cloutier, Team FSO contributing writer Photos by Robin Ritoss, Jordan Cowan (On Ice Perspectives) and Deanna Stellato-Dudek In 2016, Deanna Stellato-Dudek came back to competitive figure skating because she had unfinished business with the sport. Her singles career ended prematurely in...

figureskatersonline.com

I called my contacts [in the U.S.] and asked how long it would take for a Canadian citizen to get American citizenship. They said, impossible by 2022, and highly unlikely by 2026. Max has some contacts in Canada, and he did the same. They said, highly unlikely by 2022, but likely by 2026. That’s what made our decision of what country we were going to. The Olympics was the big goal. We both want to go to the Olympics. So that was the deciding factor; what country we could possibly get citizenship from in time.

That was the interview I was searching for !

 

[4everchan]

For sure, it's going to be up to Gabbie & Thierry to decide. I think there could be opportunities for them in both countries. But still, a lot of work to do no matter which country they represent. And now I ask why Soucisse/Firus are so relevant as ice dancers to Thierry's situation?

SC ought to release S/F with all they've been through with the huge depth in Canadian ice dance! S/F have been trying hard for a long time, and they are simply treading water in Canada. Seemingly, all they want is the chance to compete at Worlds and Olympics, which they will not get in Canada. SC needs to release them. It's harsh to make them wait.

Simply because Skate Canada apparently said to S/F they would need to ask for their release next year... they wouldn't get it this year. At least, this is what has been mentioned by people close to S/F (not officially confirmed anywhere). Regarding Thierry, Skate Canada may be less demanding because he has not been to Worlds, while S/F have been there once. However, Matte-Ferland did go to 4CC. In the interview of Max and Deanna @el henry provided, Deanna mentions that releases are set in stone in the USA and it is about the same in Canada. A skater that has been to worlds will have to wait 2 years for their release, which was her case. This is why I mentioned it. If Skate Canada is following similar rules, that would explain the S/F situation, mentioned here. Izzo and Ferland have never been to worlds but they both have been to 4CC, so we will again, have to wait and see what will come out of this.

 

[NanaPat]

Shafted by U.S. figuring skating? Nah!

I was thinking of 16-17 for C/T, when they came second at nationals but weren't sent to 4CC or Worlds. Unless there was a good reason for that, it seems like a lack of support from USFS.

I also expected a lot from them and was disappointed by how things worked out.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Deanna and Max decided to skate for Canada because Deanna could get citizenship faster in Canada. At the time, Canada's pairs program was certainly as strong as the US. Take away Alexa and Chris, it still is. The "competition" was not the deciding factor.

No, after the 2018 Olympics, Canadian pairs was in a rebuilding phase. There's no question that the U.S. was stronger in pairs depth at that time. It's just that the tendency has always been to look down on U.S. pairs teams. The reality is that the U.S. and Canada are comparable and complementary in their separate pairs trajectories over the years. But Canada has tended to be better respected due to greater success and more recent success with Olympic gold medalists in pairs.

Of course, you can look at this however you wish. I had pointed out specific teams in the very talented U.S. in my previous post, but I edited it down since I've been told everyone knows the history.

Again, thanks for the article in FSO. It confirms a lot that I already knew. Deanna said, "We both have long torsos and short legs..." I saw that immediately. Plus, they are stylistically well-matched and equally talented, with mutual goals. Deanna had already spoken in previous interviews about Max's power, and how positively it impacted their 3-twist, tho' perfecting the twist also came with adjustments on both their parts.

Deanna says in the article that she was determined to find a partner, with the goal of reaching the Olympics. She said she made lot of calls, and she was open to different countries. Thus, she had surely already been checking into citizenship factors, before she even tried out with Max. It's great hearing from them that the deciding factor was the quickest route to citizenship for the 2026 Olympics, which for Deanna meant Canada. So that citizenship reality worked in their favor since Canada was the best place for them competitively too. I'm not saying Deanna/ Max didn't have a chance competitively in the U.S., but it was a much more difficult and crowded path to the top. They wouldn't have been #1 team last season or even right now in the U.S., whereas they are in Canada.

Everyone can see things from their perspective. My main point, which I stand by is that Canada was rebuilding in pairs since 2018. Only last season were they finally getting stronger after having lost a number of teams to retirement and injury. And Deanna/ Max are an essential part of Canada's current recovery of pairs strength.

The U.S. did not lose top pairs teams after the 2018 Olympics. There was shifting that occurred, but also new pairings with all top teams improving competitively. This is true, despite the way U.S. pairs tends to be dissed. In the lead-up to the 2022 Olympics, the U.S. had 4 pairs teams in the top 15, and 3 teams in the top ten in World rankings, yet they couldn't buy a third spot for Worlds and Olympics, much less receive their due purely on Merit!

 

[el henry]

whole post

Canada may have been rebuilding pairs, but that had nothing to do with Deanna and Max skating for Canada as opposed to the US. Do you accept Deanna and Max's own words on that?

And since that is a yes or no question, and anything else is irrelevant, jumping off, this will be my last post and I apologize to all for the off topic. I just wanted to document the actual reasons for Deanna and Max's choice

 

[GiGi23]

Aha! I didn't know that was allowed, but it explains something that was puzzling me.

In March, Ciera had competed at the Qualifiers for the British Championships, a week after she had competed at the Skate London Spring Open representing Ireland. And I was wondering if maybe the Lee Valley Club had put her down for Ireland by mistake, knowing that she was planning to switch. (Let's face it, the club has a lot going on at the moment, with their rink getting re-built. Little mistakes like this can happen).

But, by the sounds of things, it seems that she has been hedging her bets for a while.

Well, given that she is likely to be moving up to Seniors soon, Ireland is definitely the best option for Ciera. There are a lot of skaters competing in Senior Ladies for the UK, whereas there has been nobody competing in Senior Ladies for Ireland since Clara Peters retired.

However, that is likely to change next season. Robyn Foster, Elizabeth Golding, and Adare and Dracy Condon all age out of Juniors at the end of this month. However, none of them were competing at Nationals this week. And if you look at the National Team page of the ISAI website, only Robyn is still there. Elizabeth and the Condon twins no longer have profiles on the page. Have they left the Irish team?

With potentially 4 skaters competing at Senior level next season, it would probably be worthwhile for Ciera to stay in Juniors with Sophia for this coming season at least. And then move up the following season, when it is clearer who is in the field.

Assuming that they are all still in the mix, if you look at their scores in Juniors over the past few seasons, Ciera, Sophia, Robyn and Elizabeth all tend to score very similarly (the Condon twins tend to score lower). So, the international assignments are likely to end up getting shared out between the four of them. Especially if two of them are competing in Juniors, and two of them are competing in Seniors. If Ciera stayed with the UK, there is practically no chance of getting international assignments because there are more skaters in the mix that score higher than her.

In conclusion, I think now is the time for Ciera to finally nail her colours to the wall and opt for Ireland.

CaroLiza_fan

Ciera has done skate southern for an irish club a few years back too, some of the UK based skaters were in exam years in school last year so thats probably had a knock on effect, Elizabeth hasn't properly trained all season looking at her IG, she's in university in Bulgaria. Condon sisters didn't do nationals last season either. Note that to do nationals the skaters have to have their full test at their level (we'll likely see Sophia's sister next season) and covid restrictions decimated opportunities for Novice and Junior skaters across Europe to compete outside of their domestic competitions. Generally they do this by testing through competition so if Ciera is looking to go senior at next year's nationals she'll need to get her senior scores at an international inter club. Be nice to see Ireland have a senior lady again. They'd have singles skaters at every level from advance novice up then.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I was thinking of 16-17 for C/T, when they came second at nationals but weren't sent to 4CC or Worlds. Unless there was a good reason for that, it seems like a lack of support from USFS.

I also expected a lot from them and was disappointed by how things worked out.

C/T were NOT shafted. You have to know already, or been there, or do the research. First of all, C/T did not perform well on the GP, despite having great programs. They almost had a breakthrough at SA. They landed their sbs jumps but messed up on an element they could execute in their sleep! Haven/ Brandon did very well on the GP. This was the season in which Haven was coming back from a devastating knee injury. Doctors told her she'd have trouble walking, and yet she came back to skate again. Moreover, Brandon stuck by her and worked on his aesthetic skills during her year of rehab, post surgery. Many partners would have bailed in the interest of their own career.

At the same time that season, Alexa Knierim was recovering from surgery after a life-threatening illness. Chris was weathering not only the trauma of nearly losing his life partner, but he also had a nagging leg injury, which hampered his jumping abilities. At 2017 U.S. Nationals, the Knierims could not compete, so they were given a medical bye to attend 4CCs and Worlds. Other competitors knew that going into Natl's.

It was a strange Natl's, a kind of microcosm of the history of U.S. pairs teams over the past 10 years. It's been about adversity, perseverance, ups-and-downs, and amazing victories. Yet, at the same time, the U.S. discipline has often been treated with undeserved disrespect. Right now, U.S. pairs seem to receive grudging respect, with equal parts side-eying and misunderstanding. U.S. figsk is not helpful because they aren't good at politicking, nor are they good at effective promotion!

So, 2017 U.S. pairs: a minor team withdrew before the event. Two teams withdrew after the sp, including Kayne/O'Shea, because Tarah sustained an injury in the sp. K/O were defending Nat'l champs btw, having won gold in 2016. C/T were 4th in the sp and 2nd in the fp. Haven/ Brandon were 2nd in the sp and first in the fp. At their first Natl's together, Ash/ Timothy were 1st in the sp, and 3rd in the fp. Ash/ Timothy had done well that season as a new team, medaling internationally. Deanna/ Nate (also a new team) were 3rd in the sp, 5th in the fp, and 4th overall.

The scores at Nat'ls were quite close for Haven/ Brandon and C/T. If it was my call, I would have sent C/ T to 4CCs with the Knierims and Ash/ Timothy, while allowing Haven to rest her knee for Worlds. I'm sure C/T suffered low morale after not getting an assignment. But the fact remains they were having confidence issues on their jumps, and they didn't come out swinging at Nat'ls. K/O won the previous year by believing in themselves and skating two clean performances. All the top teams in 2017 made mistakes in the fp. It's arguable that C/T should have won with the scores so close, but they never proved they could conquer their sbs jump inconsistencies.

Haven/ Brandon ended up not doing well at Worlds, and the U.S. were down to one spot in pairs. The Knierims skated well at 4CCs and Worlds, but U.S. pairs had a lot of hills to climb after that season. Still, the Knierims, Haven/ Brandon, Ash/ Timothy, to a degree Kayne/ O'Shea, later Calalang/ Johnson, and significantly Knierim/ Frazier, have been the major pairs teams for the U.S. over the past 4 to 5 years. When Knierim/ Frazier paired in 2020, who could have predicted they would win a World championship two years later? Figure skating is confounding, uplifting, and often unpredictable.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Do you accept Deanna and Max's own words on that?

I accept that they said they were looking for the quickest route to citizenship to have a chance at the 2026 Olympics. Their quickest route was Canada for Deanna. (Yippee Ki-Yay! ) The citizenship factor is what it is and was not going to change within their decision-making time frame. And quite clearly that being the deciding factor worked tremendously in their favor, since Canada was also the best path for them competitively.

Had the U.S. been the quickest path to citizenship for 2026 Olympics, then that would have been their deciding factor. I believe them on that too. The other part of this is that they were given advice such as "impossible; highly unlikely; and likely." I too would go with 'likely.' Having been an immigration paralegal, I know that laws can change and different avenues can be explored. But since I've been out of the field, quite a bit has happened and the process has become more stringent and exacting in the U.S., that I'm aware of. Going with 'likely' in Canada is certainly the best bet. Proving her value as an athlete can only make that 'likely' become even rosier.

Whether or not Deanna and Max ever privately discussed other factors and logistics was not a question asked by the FSO interviewer.

Plenty of questions could have been asked, including: "Had the path to citizenship been equal in both the U.S. and Canada, which country would have been your preference?"

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Skate Canada apparently said to S/F they would need to ask for their release next year... they wouldn't get it this year. At least, this is what has been mentioned by people close to S/F (not officially confirmed anywhere). Regarding Thierry, Skate Canada may be less demanding because he has not been to Worlds, while S/F have been there once.

Thanks for this explanation. While I am not invested in S/F as a fan, I enjoy watching them, and I feel for them. I think it's extremely harsh to make them wait two years. Hopefully, they can obtain their release next year. They have worked very hard and done everything they could, but with Canada being so rich in ice dance talent, S/F don't have real opportunities to move up at this stage. I can understand their desire to represent a country where they might be able to go to Worlds and Olympics.

An exception could be made for them. It's overly hard line to make them wait, which hampers their goals and forward momentum. There's unfairness at every turn in this sport.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Deanna has said that she and Nate split because Nate was not certain when/if he would return from surgery, and Deanna did not have the time to spare.

LOL! Okay. What a good thing that in the long run, their fortuitous split worked out optimally for both of them! Yay!

 

[4everchan]

No, after the 2018 Olympics, Canadian pairs was in a rebuilding phase.

I think your historical perception is very different from mine however.
Let me remind you that at the 2018 Olynpics, only one USA team, the Knierims competed. They finished 15th, below ALL 3 Canadian teams.

Sure, Duhamel Radford retired. But both 9th and 11th place finishers at the games were planning to compete for another cycle. Séguin and Bilodeau had even shared their SP music and were training during the summer until Charlie put a stop on it. So in 2019, I am not so sure that the grass was looking so much greener, the field so much weaker in Canadian pairs.

Here were the entries at Nationals for 2019. (Canada doesn't have large fields. That doesn't mean it's an easy field.)
Camille Ruest / Andrew Wolfe (QC) promising, injured, eventually retired later
Justine Brasseur / Mark Bardei (QC), split... Mark was feeling too far from home they were SUPER promising (finished twice in 4th)
Kirsten Moore-Towers / Michael Marinaro (ON) Strong world-class pair equivalent back then to top US pairs, even ranked above
Mariah Mccaw / Steven Adcock (ON) newer pair
Lori-Ann Matte / Thierry Ferland(QC) exciting young pair
Evelyn Walsh / Trennt Michaud (ON) solid young pair

MTM won, W/M were second. The 3-5 placed teams were all within points from one another.

These are the results in 2020 before Covid hit. Worlds were to be in Montreal. Larger field. Not such an easy field for Max and Deanna

ank	Name	Section	Total points	SP	FS
1​	Kirsten Moore-Towers / Michael Marinaro	ON	215.67​	1​	73.73​	1​	141.94​
2​	Evelyn Walsh / Trennt Michaud	ON	196.29​	3​	70.34​	2​	125.95​
3​	Liubov Ilyushechkina / Charlie Bilodeau	QC	186.71​	2​	71.23​	3​	115.48​
4	Justine Brasseur / Mark Bardei	QC	177.06​	5​	62.29​	4​	114.77​
5	Lori-Ann Matte / Thierry Ferland	QC	175.28​	4​	62.63​	6​	112.65​
6	Deanna Stellato-Dudek / Maxime Deschamps	QC	170.36​	6​	57.06​	5​	113.30​
7	Natasha Purich / Bryce Chudak	QC	153.67​	7​	55.33​	7​	98.34​
8	Nadine Wang / Francis Boudreau-Audet	QC	132.31​	9​	46.08​	8​	86.23​
9	Chloe Choinard / Shaquille Davis	ON	123.13​	8​	46.89​	9​	76.24​

I simply have a hard time with the way you seem to think that Deanna and Max chose Canada because of lack of depth in pairs.

The way it happened as it's been clearly said is :

Deanna decided to move on as Nate was unsure he would heal fully and could continue after his recovery period.
Deanna was scheduled for a bunch of try-outs. The first one in Canada was with Max. She canceled the other ones. She found her partner.
Deanna and Max asked their immigration contacts. USA for Max, 7 years or so. Canada for Deanna 4-5 years, maybe faster.
As both of them were pursuing their Olympic dream, it looked like the only possible way was for 2026, with Canada.

Depth is tricky to evaluate. If anything, I would give you this that after the 2022 games, yup... it look really bad for Canada.. but wow... the turn around that happened !!!

Also depth can also mean more spots, so more teams going to the Olympics. So it's not always a bad thing to have good competitors pushing each other and teaming up to earn berths for big championships. Canada will have 3 pairs at home worlds. Hopefully, they keep doing well and claim 3 spots for Olympics as well.

Where we can both agree : we sincerely hope that Max and Deanna will fulfill their Olympic dreams.

Finally, this conversation is coming because Izzo and Ferland are still in the IF category.... They will remain IF (on this forum) when their pair is confirmed

Let me sincerely ask you, which field is deeper right now? Canada or the USA without K/F ?

And finally, the reason why USA pairs have not been on the radar is simply because it took 20 years for USA pairs to medal (Ina/Zimmerman 2002 to K/F in 2022). (the last champions were from 1979!) It's not a secret for anyone that Russia and China, have won most medals, with Germany and Canada winning some too.

You will not see me do this sort of historical post often, but I think this one was needed to clarify that the field is NOT always the deal maker or breaker. It certainly here, as the skaters themselves have explained, due to bureaucracy. Honestly, it seems that Izzo and Ferland teaming up in 2023 have no chance to go to the Olympics for 2026. They would be looking at 2030 if that is their goal... and even there, it's tight for Thierry to get American citizenship.

 

[Jammers]

I think your historical perception is very different from mine however.
Let me remind you that at the 2018 Olynpics, only one USA team, the Knierims competed. They finished 15th, below ALL 3 Canadian teams.

Sure, Duhamel Radford retired. But both 9th and 11th place finishers at the games were planning to compete for another cycle. Séguin and Bilodeau had even shared their SP music and were training during the summer until Charlie put a stop on it. So in 2019, I am not so sure that the grass was looking so much greener, the field so much weaker in Canadian pairs.

Here were the entries at Nationals for 2019. (Canada doesn't have large fields. That doesn't mean it's an easy field.)
Camille Ruest / Andrew Wolfe (QC) promising, injured, eventually retired later
Justine Brasseur / Mark Bardei (QC), split... Mark was feeling too far from home they were SUPER promising (finished twice in 4th)
Kirsten Moore-Towers / Michael Marinaro (ON) Strong world-class pair equivalent back then to top US pairs, even ranked above
Mariah Mccaw / Steven Adcock (ON) newer pair
Lori-Ann Matte / Thierry Ferland(QC) exciting young pair
Evelyn Walsh / Trennt Michaud (ON) solid young pair

MTM won, W/M were second. The 3-5 placed teams were all within points from one another.

These are the results in 2020 before Covid hit. Worlds were to be in Montreal. Larger field. Not such an easy field for Max and Deanna

ank	Name	Section	Total points	SP	FS
1​	Kirsten Moore-Towers / Michael Marinaro	ON	215.67​	1​	73.73​	1​	141.94​
2​	Evelyn Walsh / Trennt Michaud	ON	196.29​	3​	70.34​	2​	125.95​
3​	Liubov Ilyushechkina / Charlie Bilodeau	QC	186.71​	2​	71.23​	3​	115.48​
4	Justine Brasseur / Mark Bardei	QC	177.06​	5​	62.29​	4​	114.77​
5	Lori-Ann Matte / Thierry Ferland	QC	175.28​	4​	62.63​	6​	112.65​
6	Deanna Stellato-Dudek / Maxime Deschamps	QC	170.36​	6​	57.06​	5​	113.30​
7	Natasha Purich / Bryce Chudak	QC	153.67​	7​	55.33​	7​	98.34​
8	Nadine Wang / Francis Boudreau-Audet	QC	132.31​	9​	46.08​	8​	86.23​
9	Chloe Choinard / Shaquille Davis	ON	123.13​	8​	46.89​	9​	76.24​

I simply have a hard time with the way you seem to think that Deanna and Max chose Canada because of lack of depth in pairs.

The way it happened as it's been clearly said is :

Deanna decided to move on as Nate was unsure he would heal fully and could continue after his recovery period.
Deanna was scheduled for a bunch of try-outs. The first one in Canada was with Max. She canceled the other ones. She found her partner.
Deanna and Max asked their immigration contacts. USA for Max, 7 years or so. Canada for Deanna 4-5 years, maybe faster.
As both of them were pursuing their Olympic dream, it looked like the only possible way was for 2026, with Canada.

Depth is tricky to evaluate. If anything, I would give you this that after the 2022 games, yup... it look really bad for Canada.. but wow... the turn around that happened !!!

Also depth can also mean more spots, so more teams going to the Olympics. So it's not always a bad thing to have good competitors pushing each other and teaming up to earn berths for big championships. Canada will have 3 pairs at home worlds. Hopefully, they keep doing well and claim 3 spots for Olympics as well.

Where we can both agree : we sincerely hope that Max and Deanna will fulfill their Olympic dreams.

Finally, this conversation is coming because Izzo and Ferland are still in the IF category.... They will remain IF (on this forum) when their pair is confirmed

Let me sincerely ask you, which field is deeper right now? Canada or the USA without K/F ?

And finally, the reason why USA pairs have not been on the radar is simply because it took 20 years for USA pairs to medal (Ina/Zimmerman 2002 to K/F in 2022). (the last champions were from 1979!) It's not a secret for anyone that Russia and China, have won most medals, with Germany and Canada winning some too.

You will not see me do this sort of historical post often, but I think this one was needed to clarify that the field is NOT always the deal maker or breaker. It certainly here, as the skaters themselves have explained, due to bureaucracy. Honestly, it seems that Izzo and Ferland teaming up in 2023 have no chance to go to the Olympics for 2026. They would be looking at 2030 if that is their goal... and even there, it's tight for Thierry to get American citizenship.

I think your historical perception is very different from mine however.
Let me remind you that at the 2018 Olynpics, only one USA team, the Knierims competed. They finished 15th, below ALL 3 Canadian teams.

Sure, Duhamel Radford retired. But both 9th and 11th place finishers at the games were planning to compete for another cycle. Séguin and Bilodeau had even shared their SP music and were training during the summer until Charlie put a stop on it. So in 2019, I am not so sure that the grass was looking so much greener, the field so much weaker in Canadian pairs.

Here were the entries at Nationals for 2019. (Canada doesn't have large fields. That doesn't mean it's an easy field.)
Camille Ruest / Andrew Wolfe (QC) promising, injured, eventually retired later
Justine Brasseur / Mark Bardei (QC), split... Mark was feeling too far from home they were SUPER promising (finished twice in 4th)
Kirsten Moore-Towers / Michael Marinaro (ON) Strong world-class pair equivalent back then to top US pairs, even ranked above
Mariah Mccaw / Steven Adcock (ON) newer pair
Lori-Ann Matte / Thierry Ferland(QC) exciting young pair
Evelyn Walsh / Trennt Michaud (ON) solid young pair

MTM won, W/M were second. The 3-5 placed teams were all within points from one another.

These are the results in 2020 before Covid hit. Worlds were to be in Montreal. Larger field. Not such an easy field for Max and Deanna

ank	Name	Section	Total points	SP	FS
1​	Kirsten Moore-Towers / Michael Marinaro	ON	215.67​	1​	73.73​	1​	141.94​
2​	Evelyn Walsh / Trennt Michaud	ON	196.29​	3​	70.34​	2​	125.95​
3​	Liubov Ilyushechkina / Charlie Bilodeau	QC	186.71​	2​	71.23​	3​	115.48​
4	Justine Brasseur / Mark Bardei	QC	177.06​	5​	62.29​	4​	114.77​
5	Lori-Ann Matte / Thierry Ferland	QC	175.28​	4​	62.63​	6​	112.65​
6	Deanna Stellato-Dudek / Maxime Deschamps	QC	170.36​	6​	57.06​	5​	113.30​
7	Natasha Purich / Bryce Chudak	QC	153.67​	7​	55.33​	7​	98.34​
8	Nadine Wang / Francis Boudreau-Audet	QC	132.31​	9​	46.08​	8​	86.23​
9	Chloe Choinard / Shaquille Davis	ON	123.13​	8​	46.89​	9​	76.24​

I simply have a hard time with the way you seem to think that Deanna and Max chose Canada because of lack of depth in pairs.

The way it happened as it's been clearly said is :

Deanna decided to move on as Nate was unsure he would heal fully and could continue after his recovery period.
Deanna was scheduled for a bunch of try-outs. The first one in Canada was with Max. She canceled the other ones. She found her partner.
Deanna and Max asked their immigration contacts. USA for Max, 7 years or so. Canada for Deanna 4-5 years, maybe faster.
As both of them were pursuing their Olympic dream, it looked like the only possible way was for 2026, with Canada.

Depth is tricky to evaluate. If anything, I would give you this that after the 2022 games, yup... it look really bad for Canada.. but wow... the turn around that happened !!!

Also depth can also mean more spots, so more teams going to the Olympics. So it's not always a bad thing to have good competitors pushing each other and teaming up to earn berths for big championships. Canada will have 3 pairs at home worlds. Hopefully, they keep doing well and claim 3 spots for Olympics as well.

Where we can both agree : we sincerely hope that Max and Deanna will fulfill their Olympic dreams.

Finally, this conversation is coming because Izzo and Ferland are still in the IF category.... They will remain IF (on this forum) when their pair is confirmed

Let me sincerely ask you, which field is deeper right now? Canada or the USA without K/F ?

And finally, the reason why USA pairs have not been on the radar is simply because it took 20 years for USA pairs to medal (Ina/Zimmerman 2002 to K/F in 2022). (the last champions were from 1979!) It's not a secret for anyone that Russia and China, have won most medals, with Germany and Canada winning some too.

You will not see me do this sort of historical post often, but I think this one was needed to clarify that the field is NOT always the deal maker or breaker. It certainly here, as the skaters themselves have explained, due to bureaucracy. Honestly, it seems that Izzo and Ferland teaming up in 2023 have no chance to go to the Olympics for 2026. They would be looking at 2030 if that is their goal... and even there, it's tight for Thierry to get American citizenship.

You forget that the US got wrecked by retirements after the 2022 season. Top 3 teams at Nationals called it quits and two of them C/J and L/M were more then young enough to go for another 4 years especially with 3 spots. For just a short while the US had the most depth in Pairs in the world with the Russians banned but it didn't last. The US would have won a ton of medals on the GP last season if those teams had stuck together.

 

[NanaPat]

@BlissfulSynergy

After reading your wall of words, including many red herrings and side issues, I had to look up the nationals scores and international assignments to figure out what happened to US pairs in 2017.

According to my research:

D/F were first at nationals and were assigned to 4CC and WC
S-K/K weren't at nationals because of her protracted illness but were assigned to 4CC and WC based on past performance
C/T were second at nationals and weren't assigned to anything
C/L were third at nationals and were given the final 4CC spot

All other teams are irrelevant, including K/O, S/B, C/J, and whoever else you thought to expound on, as they were neither top 3 at Nationals nor had scores close to the top 3 at nationals nor were given a 4CC/WC assigment.

The scores for the top three teams were very close: 188.32/186.28/184.41. Of those, one team was given 2 assignments, one team given 1 assignment, and one given none. To add insult to injury, the team with no assignments (C/T) BEAT the team that was given the final 4CC assignment (C/L) by a narrow margin and missed winning by a similar narrow margin.

It does seem to me that that was a slap in the face to C/T. If they HAD to send C/L to 4CC, couldn't they have had them replace one of the WC teams instead of C/T?

 

[4everchan]

You forget that the US got wrecked by retirements after the 2022 season. Top 3 teams at Nationals called it quits and two of them C/J and L/M were more then young enough to go for another 4 years especially with 3 spots. For just a short while the US had the most depth in Pairs in the world with the Russians banned but it didn't last. The US would have won a ton of medals on the GP last season if those teams had stuck together.

I didn't mention 2022 because @BlissfulSynergy 's post was about when Deanna and Max made their move, which is after the 2018 season. They were already decided about representing Canada in 2022... so these retirements had no impact on their decision making, nor did the new reality in the skating world with the effective ban.

 

[skylark]

@BlissfulSynergy

After reading your wall of words, including many red herrings and side issues, I had to look up the nationals scores and international assignments to figure out what happened to US pairs in 2017.

According to my research:

D/F were first at nationals and were assigned to 4CC and WC
S-K/K weren't at nationals because of her protracted illness but were assigned to 4CC and WC based on past performance
C/T were second at nationals and weren't assigned to anything
C/L were third at nationals and were given the final 4CC spot

All other teams are irrelevant, including K/O, S/B, C/J, and whoever else you thought to expound on, as they were neither top 3 at Nationals nor had scores close to the top 3 at nationals nor were given a 4CC/WC assigment.

The scores for the top three teams were very close: 188.32/186.28/184.41. Of those, one team was given 2 assignments, one team given 1 assignment, and one given none. To add insult to injury, the team with no assignments (C/T) BEAT the team that was given the final 4CC assignment (C/L) by a narrow margin and missed winning by a similar narrow margin.

It does seem to me that that was a slap in the face to C/T. If they HAD to send C/L to 4CC, couldn't they have had them replace one of the WC teams instead of C/T?

I see it differently, not as a slap in the face to Castelli/Tran. I think the USFS action in who they sent was meant to protect and advance the chances of US teams for the 2018 olympics.

Your facts are correct, and clarifying. But because USA ultimately only had one spot for 2018 olympics, it's hard to keep uppermost in mind that we anticipated having two spots, and that our chances for 2 teams to do well were better than they had been in many years.

Cain/Leduc were only in their first competitive year (2016-17, as they paired in May 2016). At 2017 Nationals, they Won the SP, and they'd already done well and shown incredible progress and drive since their first competition in fall 2016. They had excellent chances to do well, as did Denney/Frazier ... but C/L needed international exposure at the level of 4CC.

Castelli/Tran were completely out of the running to represent USA at the 2018 Olympics. Mervin couldn't have gotten citizenship in time in any scenario. As some posters will often remind us, part of the job of a federation is to advance their chances of bringing home medals. Not their only job, for sure -- it's also to promote figure skating, to show the standards they want to hold up -- such as, for example (IMO) artistry and athleticism being equally important. To name just one.

So I think sending Cain/Leduc to 2017 4CC was about getting them experience at high-level international events, and so the judges could form an opinion of them in advance of 2018. I imagine there were advocates for sending Castelli/Tran, but it may have been a matter of national goals taking precedence over the goals of team C/T. I remember thinking all this at the time.

As for possibly sending C/T to 4CC, then Cain/Leduc to 2017 Worlds rather than Denney/Frazier or Knierim/Knierim, that just wasn't going to happen, unless Alexa had gotten sick again. D/F had won nationals, so they had first priority to compete at Worlds. K/K had won nationals once before at that point and had been USA's most consistently high-performing team for a few years.

C/T's team seem to have not thought through the long-term aspects of their choices. I remember Marissa saying, when she and Mervin first teamed up, that she was so happy to be skating, and with someone she could be friends with. She and Simon Shnapir were notoriously always fighting or at least at odds in their day-to-day training. (they both see it differently now). It's a shame, because Marissa and Mervin were a beautiful pair, in many ways.

I hope this topic (and this post!) are seen as sufficiently on-topic. In my view, they're interesting and relevant, as they point out how complex -- and ornery! -- country changes can be. While others can be smooth as silk. They need a coaching team that thinks to the future, but for the skaters, they may often just want to keep skating and enjoying it. Which is true of new partnerships in general.

In fact, when Alisa and Ruben announced the end of their partnership, Ruben specifically said that their day-to-goals were at odds. He said joy in skating every day was most important to him, while working hard took precedence for her. That really resonated with me. Like work in general, there's a blend/compromise/conflict between delayed gratification/ultimate results ... or enjoying the process/daily satisfaction.

 

[gleungc6]

US single skater Milly (Emilia) Murdock has been training in Valdemoro, Spain with Sara Hurtardo and more. Source: Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/Ct36yY1LtY9/?igshid=Y2I2MzMwZWM3ZA==