Random Figure Skating Questions

The Finn said:

... Also team event at the olympic winter games counts but team event at the Youth Olympic Games doesn't count.

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Original reply:

ice coverage said:

High-profile examples from the Men's SB list for the 2015-16 season are below.

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2015-16/sbtsmfs.htm​

- #38 Deniss Vasiljevs FS SB was from the 2016 YOG Team Event. And as of now, it still is his PB.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00011354.htm​

- #50 Jun Hwa Cha's FS SB was from the 2016 YOG TE.​

More examples of FS SBs from the YOG TE are below. And as of now, the SBs still are the PBs for these skaters.

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So, first ISU didn't recognize any YOG team event scores as PB, then about a month later I noticed that they had accepted all team event scores as PB, then a while back I noticed that they had deleted all PB related team event scores and I assumed this would be the case today but now I see that they have reaccepted atleast some scores. However they have not reaccepted all team event scores as PB because Ustimikina/Volodin don't have their team event score as their PB score. They scored 100.98 in the team event and this score was their official ISU PB for a while but it was deleted later and it was never accepted as their PB again unlike Vasiljevs's score which has been reaccepted.

Ustimkina/Volodin scored 100.98 at the team event.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/yog2016/SEG011.HTM
Their score is here as well.
http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2015-16/sbtspfs.htm

But it is not their PB. Their recently scored their new PB at Tallinn trophy but it hasn't been updated yet. Their ISU PB is still 99.64
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00054679.htm

There are also other pairs whos team event score would still be their PB if it would have been accepted by ISU but their team event score hasn't been accepted either. So, it looks like men's and ladies' scores have been accepted as PB but pairs' scores are not. I wonder why that is.

I have been saying for years that the ISU Results site needs to be transformed into a fully searchable database. But, I can’t see them doing something as sensible as that because of the effort (and hence expense) involved.

However, the confusion caused by the changing status of the Senior B’s each season means that the Personal Best section of the ISU Bios need to be completely re-designed as a matter of urgency.

The Personal Best section needs to be divided into 4 separate parts to cater for the different types of competition.

Here is a table to show what would be in each part:


This way, you would avoid the status of some of the Senior B’s changing each season. They would all be in together.

As you may have worked out by my inclusion of the ICG, I would like to see the ISU Bios include competitions from Novice level as well. Because it is very confusing when you see a skater make their Junior GP debut, and there is absolutely nothing in their ISU Bio to give you an indication of whether they are any good.

I did dither over which column to put the GP Finals in. Because, let’s face it, the GP Final is a Major Championship. But, at the end of the day, it is the culmination of the GP Series, so it should be in the same column as the rest of the GP Series competitions.

In fact, the PB section could even be laid out as a table. Here is a mock-up of how a PB table could look for a “random” skater:


Disclaimer: This table was put together in a hurry, so he may have bigger scores that I missed.

Unfortunately, the skater I chose scored all his PB’s at the same four competitions from last season! And all his Absolute PB’s were scored at Nationals. But, these would not necessarily be the case for everybody.

The benefit of this sort of table is that it would mean that all the different types of PB would be in the one place, and it would be easy to compare them.

The drawback is that it would be a massive undertaking to do this for all the skaters that have ISU Bios.

But, I do believe that something like this needs to be done as soon as possible to end all this confusion.

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

I have been saying for years that the ISU Results site needs to be transformed into a fully searchable database. But, I can’t see them doing something as sensible as that because of the effort (and hence expense) involved.

However, the confusion caused by the changing status of the Senior B’s each season means that the Personal Best section of the ISU Bios need to be completely re-designed as a matter of urgency.

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Good suggestion, though it would be a lot of work. I would move everything under Junior Worlds out of the Major and into the Other column, and maybe the GP finals into "major", as you suggested, but that's just me.

However, if the ISU uses PBs as a criteria for event selection, the categories would have to align with that. IE, if they include Majors and Grand Prix only, the Majors and grand Prix list would have to agree with theirs. And if they include some "others" and not other "others", they'd have to be separated out as well. In other words, you should be able to calculate the "ISU PB used for (whatever)" from the values given.

shiroKJ said:

There is usually an extra dose of...shall we say generous scoring in non-sanctioned ISU events, such as club competitions and nationals, etc, so its generally wise to not include those scores in the ISU records.

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CaroLiza_fan said:

I have been saying for years that the ISU Results site needs to be transformed into a fully searchable database. But, I can’t see them doing something as sensible as that because of the effort (and hence expense) involved. ...

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NanaPat said:

Good suggestion, though it would be a lot of work. I would move everything under Junior Worlds out of the Major and into the Other column, and maybe the GP finals into "major", as you suggested, but that's just me.

However, if the ISU uses PBs as a criteria for event selection, the categories would have to align with that. IE, if they include Majors and Grand Prix only, the Majors and grand Prix list would have to agree with theirs. And if they include some "others" and not other "others", they'd have to be separated out as well. In other words, you should be able to calculate the "ISU PB used for (whatever)" from the values given.

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My two cents are that I agree with rather little of CL_fan's vision.

A specific point of disagreement is that Team Challenge Cup is not a major competition just because WTT is.
TCC belongs under "Other International Competitions."
(I know next to nothing about Winter Universiade, International Children's Games, and Asian Winter Games, but my gut reaction is to agree with NanaPat that they too belong in the "Other" category.)

I *do* agree that a comprehensive searchable database as generally envisioned by CL_fan would be a nice thing to have access to (if someone could wave a magic wand and create it without labor-intensive humanpower).

But I think it would be a huge mistake for the ISU to be the entity that creates such a database.
I do not expect or want the ISU to embrace the concept of "absolute personal bests" (even if it also were to continue tracking ISU PBs as currently defined).

And including regionals, sectionals, and nationals results in an official ISU database would be a bad idea, IMO. Even if those results were placed in their own categories, it would be all too easy to be misunderstood (by casual fans, media at large, etc.) that they had some kind of ISU imprimatur, when in fact they would not and should not. agree: Agree with shiroKJ's post.)
I would put the onus on each individual federation (if anyone) to create its own database covering its own skaters.

(My hunch is that the ISU has its own internal database [of international results] with good search power.
And that it deliberately chooses to be selective in how it presents data to the public.)

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The Finn said:

So, first ISU didn't recognize any YOG team event scores as PB, then about a month later I noticed that they had accepted all team event scores as PB, then a while back I noticed that they had deleted all PB related team event scores and I assumed this would be the case today but now I see that they have reaccepted atleast some scores. However they have not reaccepted all team event scores as PB ... ..

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Thanks for your detailed reply, The Finn .
You clearly have been following twists and turns of a saga to which I was oblivious :hopelessness:.

Thank you to both NanaPat and ice coverage for your replies.

NanaPat said:

I would move everything under Junior Worlds out of the Major and into the Other column

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ice coverage said:

A specific point of disagreement is that Team Challenge Cup is not a major competition just because WTT is.
TCC belongs under "Other International Competitions."
(I know next to nothing about Winter Universiade, International Children's Games, and Asian Winter Games, but my gut reaction is to agree with NanaPat that they too belong in the "Other" category.)

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With regards the competitions I listed below Junior Worlds, I have long been a one-man campaign to get better recognition for them.

Put simply, the YOG is the Olympics for Junior level skaters, while the ICG is the Olympics for Novice level skaters. Nobody is disputing that the Olympics is a Major. So, if we accept that the Senior level one is a Major, I cannot see why the Junior and Novice equivalents are not seen in the same way.

The Universiade is similar to the Olympics, except that it has the requirement that you have to be between the ages of 17 and 28 and registered with a university. But despite having these stipulations, it always attracts a lot of top skaters.

If you look at the Entries / Results page for the 2015 edition, you will see what I mean.

I have always considered the Universiade to be a Major, and have always included it in my ISU Championships Predictions Game.

I'm with ice coverage in that I don't know a lot about the Asian Games. But, the countries that take part in it seem to take it really seriously. And since it is basically a continental version of the Olympics, I thought I should throw it in anyway.

I do agree with ice coverage about the TCC. In the format that was used last season, it does not deserve to be classed as a Major. But, if there were a lot of changes made, then it has the potential to be a really great event. Just like the WTT is (which should definitely be considered as a Major).

ice coverage said:

And including regionals, sectionals, and nationals results in an official ISU database would be a bad idea, IMO. Even if those results were placed in their own categories, it would be all too easy to be misunderstood (by casual fans, media at large, etc.) that they had some kind of ISU imprimatur, when in fact they would not and should not. agree: Agree with shiroKJ's post.)
I would put the onus on each individual federation (if anyone) to create its own database covering its own skaters.

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Hadn't thought of it like that. Yeah, including Nationals results would probably confuse people who do not understand that "National Inflation" can exist.

ice coverage said:

(My hunch is that the ISU has its own internal database [of international results] with good search power.
And that it deliberately chooses to be selective in how it presents data to the public.)

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Getting back to the database issue, I find it interesting that you reckon that the ISU has a database but just doesn't want the public to have access to it. I always assumed that the reason the ISU Results site is still the same as it was in the late 90's was that it would be too big an undertaking to turn it into a proper database.

I just don't understand why, if the ISU had a fully functioning database, they would choose not to make it available to the public. It's not as if there is anything scandalous in there - it is just information that is already in the public domain. The problem for fans is that it is not easy to find it quickly. So, since it is all out there already, it would make sense if the governing body helped make it easier to access. (There again, it is the ISU we are talking about...)

But, as I suggested one time before (sometime last year), one way the ISU could avoid all the effort and expense of making their own database is to go into partnership with Curran Oi and his Stats On Ice database. Each site has a lot of useful information. And the things that one site is strong on are the things that the other site is weak on. So, if they were brought together, we could have the ultimate resource.

But, that is just my personal dream scenario.

CaroLiza_fan

ice coverage said:

...

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Just remembered something else I wanted to say last night.

I was just wondering if you had realised who the skater was that I used for that mock-up PB table I made for my first post in this conversation.

Because, I selected that particular skater especially for you.

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

Put simply, the YOG is the Olympics for Junior level skaters, while the ICG is the Olympics for Novice level skaters. Nobody is disputing that the Olympics is a Major. So, if we accept that the Senior level one is a Major, I cannot see why the Junior and Novice equivalents are not seen in the same way.

The Universiade is similar to the Olympics, except that it has the requirement that you have to be between the ages of 17 and 28 and registered with a university. But despite having these stipulations, it always attracts a lot of top skaters.

If you look at the Entries / Results page for the 2015 edition, you will see what I mean.

I have always considered the Universiade to be a Major, and have always included it in my ISU Championships Predictions Game.

I'm with ice coverage in that I don't know a lot about the Asian Games. But, the countries that take part in it seem to take it really seriously. And since it is basically a continental version of the Olympics, I thought I should throw it in anyway.

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Just out of curiosity I checked the latest ICG results and I have to say that I really don't understand how you can think that these games would qualify as a major championships. I mean seriously, there was only one girl who had triples and based on protocols she didn't really land them. There were no known skaters there and most definitely these games haven't been taken seriously by the biggest figure skating countries. There was no Nugumanova or Gubanova in these games. In fact there were no Russian skaters at all.

YOG are pretty big event and last time Russia send Tsurskaya and Sotskova there. In 2012 they send Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva, so, these games are very high quality events. These games are pretty much the 2nd most important junior events after World Juniors. I can see YOG as a Major Championships.

Winter Universiade are pretty big and high quality event but I don't think these games should be classified as a Major Championships. The same goes with Asian Winter Games and Team Challenge Cup.

One international event that you should include somewhere is EYOF. There has been many skaters who have become famous in their later career. Like Plushenko who won this event in 1997, Slutskaya who won this event in 1993 and Javi who was 4th in 2007. And there have been many other well known skaters there like Kovtun, Pitkeev, Aliev and so on. I haven't really checked if this is true or not I have a general view that most European countries will send their best skaters to these games and Russia will send a competitive skaters.

ice coverage said:

Thanks for your detailed reply, The Finn .
You clearly have been following twists and turns of a saga to which I was oblivious :hopelessness:.

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I kind of have been following but I am sure that I haven't been the only one.

CaroLiza_fan said:

... I was just wondering if you had realised who the skater was that I used for that mock-up PB table I made for my first post in this conversation.

Because, I selected that particular skater especially for you.

CaroLiza_fan

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OMG, I'm so sorry, CL_fan. Must confess :hopelessness: that I originally had paid attention only to the format of the table, and not at all to the scores.
But I now see -- and very much appreciate :yes: -- that for my sake, you chose Max :luv17: as your "random" skater.

Apologies for my oblivion.
Very, very thoughtful for you to make a point of featuring my favorite :dance2: skater.
Thank you .

I have two Olympics related questions but I don't know where to ask them since we have no Peyongchang section yet!

I was wondering which new(=formed after Sochi) teams of mixed nationalities will get the needed citizenship in time (or already have it) for the Olympics? For example I'm thinking about Lubov and Dylan, Aljona and Bruno, Isabella and Ilya, our favorite married couple Lauriault/LeGac, the Japanese and Korean dance and pairs teams, and probably other people I'm forgetting right now.

Second question: I don't recall reading/hearing anything about the team event format (but maybe I missed it!). Do we know already whether there will be changes compared to Sochi? Will the scoring system stay the same? Is it going to be before or after the individual competitions?

Thanks in advance to whomever will try to answer some of my questions!

sarama said:

... Second question: I don't recall reading/hearing anything about the team event format (but maybe I missed it!). Do we know already whether there will be changes compared to Sochi? Will the scoring system stay the same? Is it going to be before or after the individual competitions?

Thanks in advance to whomever will try to answer some of my questions!

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A now-archived GS thread discussing the ISU document re figure skating at the 2018 Games:

I still haven't gotten around to going over the document for 2018 with a fine-tooth comb, but FWIW, in my casual look at it, I hadn't noticed any changes in the team event format.

I don't think an official schedule for the 2018 Games has been published yet.
FWIW, on a *draft* schedule for 2018, the team event was before the individual competitions, as it was in 2014.

ice coverage said:

A now-archived GS thread discussing the ISU document re figure skating at the 2018 Games:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?59357-2018-PyeongChang-OWG-qualification-system​

I still haven't gotten around to going over the document for 2018 with a fine-tooth comb, but FWIW, in my casual look at it, I hadn't noticed any changes in the team event format.

I don't think an official schedule for the 2018 Games has been published yet.
FWIW, on a *draft* schedule for 2018, the team event was before the individual competitions, as it was in 2014.

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Thanks a lot, as soon as I have some time I'll try to read the whole document

EDIT: it was shorter than I thought, and to my casual look too everything looks the same as in Sochi!

I remember after 2014 season, there was a thread where users voted for the best skates from the whole 2011-14 quad, but I can't find it. Anyone help?

sarama said:

I was wondering which new(=formed after Sochi) teams of mixed nationalities will get the needed citizenship in time (or already have it) for the Olympics? For example I'm thinking about Lubov and Dylan, Aljona and Bruno, Isabella and Ilya, our favorite married couple Lauriault/LeGac, the Japanese and Korean dance and pairs teams, and probably other people I'm forgetting right now.

!

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I am also curious about this and am wondering if anyone was able to answer sarama's question. I didn't see an answer here, but if it's been answered somewhere else, could someone please post the link? If it hasn't been answered, does anyone know the answer?

The one discussion I remember seeing fairly recently was about Lauriault / LeGac and that it might be difficult for her to get French citizenship, especially since they're both living and training in Canada, and Marie's never lived in France.

I'm also curious. There is Hurtado/Khaliavin or Smart/Diaz in question and Australian Pair team Alexandrovskaya/Windsor, too I think by the time of summer there will be few questions answered as I hope skaters won't have to wait for decision to right beefore Olympics.

cathlen said:

I'm also curious. There is Hurtado/Khaliavin or Smart/Diaz in question and Australian Pair team Alexandrovskaya/Windsor, too I think by the time of summer there will be few questions answered as I hope skaters won't have to wait for decision to right beefore Olympics.

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As I understand it Katia has submitted all the relevant applications: first for the Outstanding Talent Visa, which if granted, will enable her citizenship to be fast-tracked. The AOC's immigration lawyer is all over it. I have no doubt that she will get it in time.

karne said:

As I understand it Katia has submitted all the relevant applications: first for the Outstanding Talent Visa, which if granted, will enable her citizenship to be fast-tracked. The AOC's immigration lawyer is all over it. I have no doubt that she will get it in time.

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Great!

The Finn said:

Just out of curiosity I checked the latest ICG results and I have to say that I really don't understand how you can think that these games would qualify as a major championships. I mean seriously, there was only one girl who had triples and based on protocols she didn't really land them. There were no known skaters there and most definitely these games haven't been taken seriously by the biggest figure skating countries. There was no Nugumanova or Gubanova in these games. In fact there were no Russian skaters at all.

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To be honest, I have never paid any attention to the ICG. I only included it in my table above because it was a multi-sport event. And I couldn't find any other competitions for Novice level skaters other than those held as part of Senior B's.

So, it was included in the table purely because of the nature of the event rather than the quality of the participants.

Actually shocked to hear that Russia didn't send any skaters. And the same with Japan. Let's face it, they would have cleaned up!

The Finn said:

One international event that you should include somewhere is EYOF. There has been many skaters who have become famous in their later career. Like Plushenko who won this event in 1997, Slutskaya who won this event in 1993 and Javi who was 4th in 2007. And there have been many other well known skaters there like Kovtun, Pitkeev, Aliev and so on. I haven't really checked if this is true or not I have a general view that most European countries will send their best skaters to these games and Russia will send a competitive skaters.

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Confession time: the table I posted in this discussion was based on the table I had made out in March for my "Distribution Of Major Champs 1998–2018" thread.

And when making it out, I had forgotten all about the EYOF!

(Ironic, given how I go on and on about the 2015 edition any opportunity I can get!)

Totally agree with you that the EYOF should be considered a Major. Like, I suppose you could see it as a Junior level version of Europeans, but held within a multi-sport event.

In fact, because of you reminding me about the EYOF, I have included it as a round of the upcoming Junior ISU Predictions Game.

The only problem with you reminding me about the EYOF is that I now want to add it to the tables and analysis in the aforementioned distribution thread. And that is going to take some major surgury.

But, if the thread is going to be there for future reference, it has to be done right. :agree:

Oh, I am such a glutton for punishment!

Thank you so much, The Finn

CaroLiza_fan

Coming across the Decelles twins when making out the tables for the Canadian Championships Predictions Thread reminded me of a question I meant to ask about a month ago.

Back in November / December, I watched the FIFA Women's U-20 World Cup. And a thing that struck me was that there were quite a few sets of twins taking part.

But, we had one strange situation where we had a set of twins who were playing for different countries. Sabrina Flores was playing for the USA, while Mónica Flores was playing for Mexico.

And it became even stranger when these two countries faced each other in the quarter-finals. Although, it did produce a lovely moment at the end of the match when Mónica was crying her eyes out, and Sabrina was trying to console her.

But, it started me thinking. Have we ever had in figure skating a set of twins competing in the same category at the same competition, but representing different countries?

The candidates that instantly popped into my head were the James twins. But, they were already competing in different categories (Vanessa in Pairs, Melyssa in Dance) when Vanessa switched to representing France. When they were both in the same category (singles) they were both representing Great Britain.

The next candidates were the Gilles twins. But, again, they were competing in different categories (Piper in Dance, Alexe in Singles) when Piper switched to representing Canada. And I don't think they ever competed in the same category, even early on in their careers when they were both representing the USA.

Can't actually think of any other twins that competed for different countries, never mind in the same category at in the same competition.

So, can anybody think of any twins that fit the brief?

CaroLiza_fan

Can someone point me to rules changes for the 2017-18 season and 2018-19 season ( for men)

So far, i've found these changes aren't happening until after olympics (correct me if I'm wrong):

Starting with the season 2018-2019:
Free Skating:
Senior:
Men, Ladies, Pairs 4 minutes
Junior:
Men, Ladies, Pairs 3 ½ minutes

Starting with the season 2018 – 2019 there will be up to 11 Grades of
Execution. (-5 to +5)

Is it mentioned anywhere a change in the rules for repeated quad/triples? If so, when does it happen?