2014 Golden Spin of Zagreb | Page 10 | Golden Skate

2014 Golden Spin of Zagreb

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
It was nice to see Ten back on top th ough his freeskate wasn't great - interesting Chan's Japan Open skate is looking pretty good next to Hanyu though injured, Machida, Ten, Mura and javier. Ditto for Korpi but she was way overmarked. Her jumps are small and lack height, speed and distance but I realize she is still coming back. She doesn't have the speed and majestic quality back yet and her in betweens are lacking. I can't make sense of the scores - they all seem way too high like maybe 10 to 15 percent too high. I have no idea what was going on in dance.
 

russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
The PCS score for Kiira, is about right she should be right up there in my view along with Ashley, they both are the mature ladies out there at the moment and should be significantly higher,

Well Done to Kiira, she must be so pleased and the gold medal here!!. i heard the Free skate is one of her best! also to Maria Artemieva she has a lovely look too! her artistry is lovely..:biggrin:
 
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vexlak

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
The PCS score for Kiira, is about right she should be right up there in my view along with Ashley, they both are the mature ladies out there at the moment and should be significantly higher,

Well Done to Kiira, she must be so pleased and the gold medal here!!. i heard the Free skate is one of her best! also to Maria Artemieva she has a lovely look too! her artistry is lovely..:biggrin:

We are happy fore Kira, but with all due respect are you suggesting that the PCS should be awarded by name, age or experience? As far as the judging manuals goes, all points awarded to a skater(s) should be a result of the performance on the ice at that event not previous ones. Sadly you are correct and the PCS is awarded by name, achievements, age and country. This is why the judging in the FS continues to be controversial and not fair. This is why only the "insiders" and hard core fans understand (almost) the judging. This is why the stands are empty and the sport will not progress.
Kira skated well but looking at the technical score, she showed not much. Hopefully she is just rusty and will get better with the time. This was her convenient competition to earn the required point for EC and WC.
 

skateluver

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
PCS should not be rewarded based on age or so called maturity gained with age. Suggesting that Wagner and Korpi should have higher PCS because they are older is silly. I think last season there were couple of occasions when skaters medaled due to high PCS even if the skating wasn't there. (Yes, I am talking about CK) I truly hope this will not be the case this season.
 

pohatta

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
The age argument is quite pointless. Last season Akiko Suzuki was the oldest skater in the circuit and many felt her PCS were too low. And as we all know, the Russian teenagers' PCS in Sochi were preposterously high.
 

russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
We are happy fore Kira, but with all due respect are you suggesting that the PCS should be awarded by name, age or experience? As far as the judging manuals goes, all points awarded to a skater(s) should be a result of the performance on the ice at that event not previous ones. Sadly you are correct and the PCS is awarded by name, achievements, age and country. This is why the judging in the FS continues to be controversial and not fair. This is why only the "insiders" and hard core fans understand (almost) the judging. This is why the stands are empty and the sport will not progress.
Kira skated well but looking at the technical score, she showed not much. Hopefully she is just rusty and will get better with the time. This was her convenient competition to earn the required point for EC and WC.

I think that we need to understand that artistry does come with experience, its something normally that you cannot teach, and that skaters express through time. I am not being biased but I do like to see a distinction between the two marks, and yes the PCS still needs to be addressed - the two at the moment are being linked, I don't like to see good skates technically but nothing in between and then awarded same sort of mark for PCS, and equally poor skates technically but the skater is more expressive with an inflated PCS mark. I suppose I am looking more in the middle. Getting back to Kiira, the PCS is broken down to what the skater is doing on the ice, and she ticked all the boxes regardless of her TES, she has no falls so it was not reflected in the PCS overall mark, it did not hinder the performance, if you look at the routine it was well choreographed, musicality was beautiful, lovely flow and edge work, transitions in between, good ice coverage. Peformance quality, yes the TES should have been lower! but the PCS was right - there should be a huge margin between the 2 marks if the skater is ARTISTIC - we should not forget that skating as Katarina Witt and others have said both Technical and Artistic, not just about technical - yes its lovely to see all these wonderful jumps but you need to use your body, music and edges to make a performance - I am sorry in most cases that comes with maturity.

PS Ashley Wagner talked about this in a recent article - I think Icenetwork! She is more artistic so uses that to her advantage.

Its a subject we can talk all day about - so to could the ISU, maybe there should be more involvement with past skaters, coaches.
 
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russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
The age argument is quite pointless. Last season Akiko Suzuki was the oldest skater in the circuit and many felt her PCS were too low. And as we all know, the Russian teenagers' PCS in Sochi were preposterously high.

Very good point! but we have always had political judging whether 6.0 or COP system, IF Akiko was no:1 in Japan at the time maybe she would have been rewarded but she always was in the shadow of Mao, and before that Mao and Miki.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
The age argument is quite pointless. Last season Akiko Suzuki was the oldest skater in the circuit and many felt her PCS were too low. And as we all know, the Russian teenagers' PCS in Sochi were preposterously high.

We may compare PCS of Linpintskaia and Suzuki in Sochi (Russia) and Saitama (Japan).

Lipnitskaia PCS SP in Sochi - 33.51 and 33.15.
Lipnitskaia PCS SP in Saitama - 33.71, even a bit higher than in Sochi.

Suzuki PCS SP in Sochi - 32.26.
Suzuki PCS SP in Saitama - 33.68, higher than in Sochi (while skating was much more clean - TES by 8.63 points higher than in Sochi).

Lipnitskaia PCS FS in Sochi - 69.82 and 70.06.
Lipnitskaia PCS FS in Saitama - 68.39, lower than in Sochi.

Suzuki PCS FS in Sochi - 63.01 and 65.78.
Suzuki PCS FS in Saitama - 67.13, higher than in Sochi while she mistaken more than in Sochi (lower TES).

I don't see, especially in SP, significant difference in judging of Lipnitskaia in Russia and Japan.
In SP I also don't see difference in judging of Suzuki.

In FS Suzuki was scored in PCS higher in Japan, than in Russia.
Was she underscored in Russia or overscored in Japan? Nobody can answer.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
The PCS score for Kiira, is about right she should be right up there in my view along with Ashley, they both are the mature ladies out there at the moment and should be significantly higher,

Well Done to Kiira, she must be so pleased and the gold medal here!!. i heard the Free skate is one of her best! also to Maria Artemieva she has a lovely look too! her artistry is lovely..:biggrin:
At Nebelhorn Trophy 2013 http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt2013/ were 14-years-old Junior Elena Radionova and comebacik skater Miki Ando (two-times World Champion).
Yes, Artemieva is not Radionova, but Korpi skated much worse than Ando at Nebelhorn.

At Nebelhorn Radionova had total score 25+ points higher than Ando.

Difference of Artemieva's and Korpi's skating in Zagreb was about the same as difference of Radionova's and Ando's skating in Oberstdorf.
Why don't we see about the same difference in score?
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I think that we need to understand that artistry does come with experience, its something normally that you cannot teach, and that skaters express through time. ...

So it is a waste of time and money for younger skaters to spend countless hours on lessons from experts on dance, acting, and other types of performance?? Because artistry is "something normally that you cannot teach"? :think:
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
I think that Kiira was a bit overscored in PCS, especially in the SP: her transitions, speed and performance were not as good as they used to be a couple of years ago, she looked (obviously!) a bit hesitant and "cold" here and there, especially after the mistakes, I would have given her something around 27 in the SP and a bit more (maybe 56-57) in the FS; and, I'm not sure that the SP music is the right one for her :think: Anyway, I'm happy to see her back and I hope she'll compete at Euros and have a great comeback season! :cheer:
 

russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
I think you missed my point! Yes you can teach it.. we all know that, but grace and expression comes with experience IMO. Its like as an example a gifted 17 year old skater going out and performing to Adagio - and then Jeremy Abbott going out and skating to it. Which would you prefer as a judge!
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I think that we need to understand that artistry does come with experience, its something normally that you cannot teach, and that skaters express through time. ...

I think you missed my point! Yes you can teach it.. we all know that, but grace and expression comes with experience IMO. ...

LOL, when you have blatantly backtracked from what you wrote in the post to which I responded, you can't retroactively claim that I missed the point of your subsequent post.
Artistry is "something normally that you cannot teach" is 180 degrees different from "Yes you can teach it."

But I am glad that you have changed your tune. :)
 
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silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
I think you missed my point! Yes you can teach it.. we all know that, but grace and expression comes with experience IMO. Its like as an example a gifted 17 year old skater going out and performing to Adagio - and then Jeremy Abbott going out and skating to it. Which would you prefer as a judge!

I would have to see the gifted 17-year-old before choosing (and I don't think Jeremy's Adagio is that great, artistically, compared to Rohene Ward's, for example). Why should they even bother skating if you are going to be that biased? Just award the points without wasting time watching them skate! :p
 

vexlak

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Unfortunately we all know it is there yet very few admit it publicly.
Judges use PCS for subjective judging which is not helping the sport. This is not the first time, not the last time and unless it is eliminated, we will talk about it. Kira aside, simply look at the last warm up's PCS scores. Hypothetically, if a no name skater would skate the same exact program as Kira did in Zagreb, she would have earned half of the points. We have to accept it, because it is unfortunately part of the sport.
Please do not take it the wrong way. Kira is a great skater and very nice person. She just came from a long time injury. She is naturally rusty and the PCS (and some TCS) were obviously inflated. Who would have not anticipate judges helping her?
 

IleK

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
I had two girls that I loved the most, Kiira and Alissa. Never thought they were perfect, maybe this is why I loved them, for being almost everytime imperfect but making me feel perfect when I watched them skating. They both got injured almost in the same time and I never thought I will see them again on ice. I had hopes for Alissa but after what she went through I lost all my hopes for Kiira. Seeing her now I am still afraid she will get injured again like Alissa but I am very, very happy to see her and I think the judges also. I don't know what to say about her programs, I had no expectations at all so I think she did rather good considering how little time she had to prepare. So what of the judges helped her, is not as if she was rewarded a world medal but just boosted her confidence a little. And is not as if Artemieva was great, she had falls in both SP and LP. And I like Artemieva, in fact she looks a little bit like Kiira. I hope Kiira will have a lucky come back because it's so hard to come back and be as competitive as you were before. And I think about Miki and even Yuna. They artistry is always better because no matter the argues it's true it growes with time and experience but it's hard with the jumps. Good luck Kiira!
 

franz6009

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
I though Kiira was beautifully and I really enjoyed her programs, the LP especially. If Radionova or Lipnitskaya get 62+ of PCS I can't see why Kiira shouldn't deserve that (or even more). Of course jumps still weren't there, but choreography looked detailed to me and interpretation was first grade (sure we couldn't see her face but I loved her body movements). But please if I'm wrong I'm happy if someone explains to me what PCS she should deserve and why... Anyway I'm so happy to see her skate again and really wish her the very best for the rest of the season.
 
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