2015 Junior Worlds Ladies Short Program March 4

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 4, 2015

AntonioThunderhunter said:
Both russians incredibly overscored, why does sima get 10 pts more than sotskova? And zheniya should get like all the penalties on her Lutz. Forcing an edge thru the loop technique? And why has she never gotten called on the edge? I used to like her but this is ridiculous.

Here is a crystal clear (if you put it in 720p HD) version of Zhenia's jumps from GPF in which she got an edge call on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVr2IqSz2Jw&feature=youtu.be

BV: 6.00
GOE: 0.30
Total pts 6.30

It's definitely unclear. Not worth disliking a young talented skater over IMO. Save that bitterness for the tech panel. I'm sure Zhenia is working hard to be the best she can.

She lets out a russian curse word in the opening clip.....is that possible pertaining to this exact jump? I think she says "I'd don't give a **bleep** about that jump."

I'm starting to search for Wakaba's program from today and Zhenia's too next :popcorn:

invisiblespiral · Mar 4, 2015

This event kind of reminds me of JW 2013.... so the odd years are bad ones and the even ones are good?

Mrs. P · Mar 4, 2015

hippomoomin said:
Wonder if there is anything wrong with the ice. Most girls here underperformed. Sarafema starts to show signs of struggle due to her flawed jumping technique. I think she would be one of the Russian ladies who would not go very far in the future. Maria Sotskove is such a lovely skater, but please Maria, stopping growing taller. Both American girls make mistakes too. I feel Tyler is always underscored. She has such great musicality and refined movement on the ice, which I don't see that often in American ladies.

FWIW, Tyler hasn't competed internationally since last year's junior worlds. In fact, she's only had two international competitions total prior to this one. I think Tyler will be able to move up, but quite frankly, I think the key thing is getting experience. She clearly can skate well (as we saw at U.S. Nationals) and it sounds like Kori & Co. are working on her training regimen.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 4, 2015

Sandpiper said:
Credit to Sima fighting and not putting that second foot down, like I said. :yes: Wakaba also had a turn-out in her combo, plus the lipping, and one judge gave her 0. Most gave her -1. We can debate the PCS, but I don't see any discrepancy in how they're judged relative to each other in TES.

Not to mention that it was Wakaba's season best on the JGP. She had a 58 (czech),52 (Germany), and 60 (JGPF) in her prior events. At the GPF she had a full edge call and still got a 0 from one judge and only -1's from the rest(Just like Sima did for the lesser offense of !) for a total deduction of only .70 pts. I'm actually in favor of less harsh penalties for edge calls so I'm not complaining mind you ....just setting the record straight.

I think Wakaba has the best jump technique(if we ignore her flips) but really lacks in Performance/Choreo/Transition compared to the two girls ahead of her. I don't want to harp on Wakaba and act as if she is a bad skater because in fact I like her a lot but the way some people are attacking other skaters to prop her up isn't fair.

And for the record Chuckm........Wakaba did not beat Sima at JGPF so I don't suspect the judges are harboring some grudge against her in Sima's favor for something that never happened.

WeakAnkles · Mar 4, 2015

I don't think it's an invalid question to ask why, at what is nominally a WORLD championship, you have a judging panel consisting of ALL European judges. If skating would like to avoid the appearance of conspiracy theories, it might behoove them not to do uhm stuff like that.

Interspectator · Mar 4, 2015

What I like about Evgenia and Serafima is their refusal to fall, even when the jump goes wrong. They land and stick. :shocked:
What I don't like, is that there seems to be little running edge out of their jumps. I like jumps that go 'whoosh!' :biggrin:

Serafima, at this point is more musical, has better steps and better spins than Wakaba, so she deserves to be in the lead.

This generation of Junior girls will be very fun to watch going into seniors that's for sure.

I just hope to see better from Maria, because she has a very unique presence on ice. Loosen up girl!

NaVi · Mar 4, 2015

And why did she get higher PCS scores than Higuchi? No doubt because Higuchi beat her at the JGPF...

OMG, get your facts straight... Higuchi did not beat Sima in anything at the JGPF... especially in PCS nor should Higuchi be ahead in PCS.

invisiblespiral · Mar 4, 2015

Um.... can we not start discussing hypothetical conspiracies and go back to skating...

Lipea · Mar 4, 2015

WeakAnkles said:
If skating would like to avoid the appearance of conspiracy theories...

Then have a clear, definite winner. Like Jenya today. If Medvedeva would skate for Japan or USA wouldn't she still get the most of points? Yes.
Unless one is obviously the best, then the conspiracies will always appear and should be treated normally. In case of Medvedeva, I don't see any reason of it, because it wouldn't make an actual difference which country she belongs to. Sotskova is Russian, did it give her advantage? No. Being one of the top lady-juniors she fell on 10th place because of her mistakes.
I don't understand why there are still people trying to put down Serafima and Evgenia. Patriotism is a bad feeling; it creates jealousy and hate. Be happy for the skaters, care less about the nations.

Sandpiper · Mar 4, 2015

Newbiespectator said:
What I like about Evgenia and Serafima is their refusal to fall, even when the jump goes wrong. They land and stick. :shocked:
What I don't like, is that there seems to be little running edge out of their jumps. I like jumps that go 'whoosh!'

Yep. I like that about Elena Radionova too. There's too little of it in the men's field these days, so I gotta hand it to these ladies. But indeed, they should work on the quality of their jumps for high GOE, instead of relying on 'tano (not their fault--it's the system).

If Maria had a bit more of that grit, perhaps she would've stayed on her feet for that combo...

stryke · Mar 4, 2015

MsLiinaLii said:
Little thoughts from the rink.
Unfortunately, I was able to come only for 2 last groups. Just some comments.

Elizabet TURZYNBAEVA - this girl is so small. I liked her flow, shame about mistakes.
Da Bin CHOI - I will out it out here -> i do not like poor posture. The elements were nice, but there was nothing between them.
Karen CHEN - When she is on, when jumps are there, you cannot take your eyes of her. However, the first jump was off-> no combo. We felt like she could have added double there. Her spins are impressive! And yes -> speed, loads of speed and ice coverage.
Maria SOTSKOVA - Just as she stepped on ice I saw how nervous she was. Again, combo! That fall was so unfortunate. Then she had a stumble on her step sequence... I guess Tallinn is not her city.
Yuka NAGAI - Lovely, calm performance. I am not a crazy fan of hers, but she looks really lovely on ice.

Anastasia GALUSTYAN - She did her job, landed the jumps. The overall impression is that she does not have good basics...
Nicole RAJICOVA - Clean performance(if I remember correctly) with lovely smile. For me the highlight was her axel and her smile
Jenni SAARINEN - I was in the event with my Finnish friend(she was a synchronized skater, even a world champion and really rooted for her. Some scary jumps (especially the last one, she had scary body positiob in the air) but overall I liked that she has energetic music and nice performance.
Serafima SAKHANOVICH - She scared everyone with the combo. At first we were like "yes, landed" and then "stand, dont fall". I loove her flow and I could finally see it live.
Evgenia MEDVEDEVA - What a lovely ending of ladies SP! Evgenia was amazing, even with that lutz. I did not even see how half of the programm has passed(as her jumps are in second half). Lovely control, spins, jumps, steps! I love everything about her and i was not disappointed seeing her live for the first time! And she deserved huge applause from the crowd!

P.S. I saw myself in the stream! Yay! xD

Thank you for that. I love reading the first hand in person experiences. I hope you can watch the free skate.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 4, 2015

Here is Wakaba's 3f from today

select up to 720p HD if you for the best quality

For some reason the video stopped processing about halfway through and the quality turned out really poopie so I'll try to redo it again but I've already put an hour into this so.... :bang:

Wakaba performed her SP the best I've seen her do it all season which was good to see. Good timing for that :clap:

So I couldn't resist adding a few steps and her perfect 3lz to the video also. It is the solo jump obviously.

I tried to look at Zhenia's Lutz but the camera angle is just awful and very unclear. From what I could see and attempting to move the jump back and forth it looked like Zhenia's Lutz was worse today than the one at JGPF which may have attributed to the wonky landing. My conclusion is both Wakaba and Zhenia were quite lucky not to get edge calls. Wakaba (Flip) looked to ride the outside edge the entire way and even at takeoff.....Zhenia (Lutz) rode the outside edge and then skidded almost to a clear at best but likely inside edge today. Haven't looked at Sima yet.

Meoima · Mar 4, 2015

Sandpiper said:
Yep. I like that about Elena Radionova too. There's too little of it in the men's field these days, so I gotta hand it to these ladies. But indeed, they should work on the quality of their jumps for high GOE, instead of relying on 'tano (not their fault--it's the system).
If Maria had a bit more of that grit, perhaps she would've stayed on her feet for that combo...

Evgenia has more flow than Serafima out of her jumps IMO. I think they should stop focusing on the tano too much. The quality of their jumps aren't there yet. Bad jumping quality might do harm to them when they grow up, get taller.

SamuraiKike · Mar 4, 2015

Sackie said:
Oh my soul when was the last time CAN didn't have a lady in the free? Time for them to rebuild again. What does this mean for the JGP next year? How can they rebuild if they only get to send ladies to a couple JGP events. Of course that had lots of slots this season and it hasn't seemed to do much good.
Really though Selena might come through with a top 10 finish here - but now she doesn't even make the cut!

It wasn't that long ago actually. in 2011 Alexandra Najarro finished 25th and was out of the free for one spot.

Sandpiper · Mar 4, 2015

Meoima said:
Evgenia has more flow than Serafima out of her jumps IMO. I think they should stop focusing on the tano too much. The quality of their jumps aren't there yet. Bad jumping quality might do harm to them when they grow up, get taller.

True, Evgenia's flow and landings are better than Serafima's. And her 'tano is prettier. However, Serafima's jumps tend to be bigger, I think?

Meoima · Mar 4, 2015

Sandpiper said:
True, Evgenia's flow and landings are better than Serafima's. And her 'tano is prettier. However, Serafima's jumps tend to be bigger, I think?

Yeah, Serafima is more athletic while Evgenia is more graceful. I understand the point of their "tano". Since the Russian ladies all have their own strong point. With Liza it's her huge jumps and excellent technique, with Radionova it's her performing ability, with Yulia it's her spin... so it makes sense for Serafima and Evgenia to use tano tano as their trademark. They are not actually super strong jumper like Liza, not extreme spinner like Yulia, not strong performer like Radionova. So their tano tano all the way is something that make the judges and the audience remember them.
But the score should not be too generous to them just because they use tano. Jumping quality should not be neglected.

salchowx4 · Mar 4, 2015

Obviously we see so many tanos because including them is basically a guaranteed way to check off a bullet toward positive GOE. ISU Communication is clear that you first consider positive aspects, get a starting GOE, then take away for negative aspects. On balance, a poor jump with a tano should not receive good GOE. Unfortunately, that is not always the case in practice.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 4, 2015

salchowx4 said:
Obviously we see so many tanos because including them is basically a guaranteed way to check off a bullet toward positive GOE. ISU Communication is clear that you first consider positive bullets, get a starting GOE, then take away for negative aspects. A poor jump with a tano should not receive good GOE. Unfortunately, that is not always the case in practice.

It is true that you first consider positive GOE before reducing it:yes:

What isn't clear is the amount of bullets necassary to award positive GOE. The isu nearly suggests the following:

To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It is at the discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:
FOR + 1 : 2 bullets
FOR + 2 : 4 bullets
FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets Singles

Sandpiper · Mar 4, 2015

Meoima said:
Yeah, Serafima is more athletic while Evgenia is more graceful. I understand the point of their "tano". Since the Russian ladies all have their own strong point. With Liza it's her huge jumps and excellent technique, with Radionova it's her performing ability, with Yulia it's her spin... so it makes sense for Serafima and Evgenia to use tano tano as their trademark. They are not actually super strong jumper like Liza, not extreme spinner like Yulia, not strong performer like Radionova. So their tano tano all the way is something that make the judges and the audience remember them.
But the score should not be too generous to them just because they use tano. Jumping quality should not be neglected.

Yeah, the depth of the current field, especially in Russia, is probably why they do this. (For the past eight years, ladies had a few top skaters--Mao, Yuna, and to a lesser degree Miki and Carolina--and then a big drop-off. Whereas there are now there are about seven skaters in Russia alone who could contend for the top). But like you, I think 'tano isn't equal to Liza-esque jumps, Yulia-esque spins, or Elena-esque performance ability.

If Evgenia and Serafima want to move to the top, I'd rather see them work on their jumps, spins, performance ability, ect. rather than a 'tano/backloading short-cut. Especially when the sheer volume of 'tano is detrimental to the program as a whole. Evgenia could score good GOE on her jumps if she works on her flow/landings (a great overall effect when coupled with her flexibility/extension), and Serafima can channel her innate athleticism (maybe never the best landings, but she can score good GOE by working further on the height/power of her jumps).

I suggest a limit of two 'tano's per program, and no second-half bonus for more than 2 jumping passes in the SP (and 5 in the LP).

salchowx4 · Mar 4, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
It is true that you first consider positive GOE before reducing it:yes:

What isn't clear is the amount of bullets necassary to award positive GOE. The isu nearly suggests the following:

Yes, that part is discretionary. (Unfortunately so, in my opinion.) But a good judge will not give an obviously poor jump with tano good GOE. A shady or bad one might.

Point is, the tano craze that we're seeing should not be a problem if the judging is good. That's the case for most things in this system though.

2015 Junior Worlds Ladies Short Program March 4

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

invisiblespiral

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

WeakAnkles

Interspectator

NaVi

invisiblespiral

Lipea

Sandpiper

stryke

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Meoima

Match Penalty

SamuraiKike

Sandpiper

Meoima

Match Penalty

salchowx4

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Sandpiper

salchowx4

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