Why skating in the U.S. is strugglng

I like the article and enjoy seeing skating in mainstream publications. I agree with it to some extent. I'm a college professor and see lots of international students. The students from Russia and former soviet bloc are so eager to have the opportunity to improve their lot that they go to all efforts to excel, so I was thinking maybe our skaters are just not raised to be as tough. But, then I look at our women soccer, softball, gymnastics, etc., and our women are among the toughest and most talented in the world. So, I think it comes down to USFSA and the promotion of the sport. Skating should be classified as an extreme sport (because it is!). Throwing yourself in the air at immense speed, rotating four time and landing on ice with a thin blade...how much more extreme can you get. Perhaps we're not appealing to the right young girls, girls that would excel in any sport, through the "skating princess" model (it is not appealing to our young girls in the post Title IX era as other sports compete for their attention). Perhaps our culture has moved away from this sport as the number of young girls interested in the skating princess stereotype shrinks. It will require a re-casting of the sport to appeal to girls that would be gymnast stars or soccer stars. Just my perspective on the sport and its lowered interest among youth.

Just to add...the model most current Russian girls emulate is likely Slutskaya...and she was so powerful! While Kwan was consistent and mentally strong, the artistic element was her strongest. Maybe our focus is too much on artistic at an early age and not enough about power and technique. The Russians have our current crop beat on technique for sure and have a seemingly rich balletic influence as well.

sc8 said:

Just to add...the model most current Russian girls emulate is likely Slutskaya...and she was so powerful! While Kwan was consistent and mentally strong, the artistic element was her strongest. Maybe our focus is too much on artistic at an early age and not enough about power and technique. The Russians have our current crop beat on technique for sure and have a seemingly rich balletic influence as well.

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I don't think most young girls nowadays even know of Slutskaya as a skater. A lot of them look up to Yulia Lip due to her pre and post-Sochi hype.

As for the "Wagner-type" thing, I think we should focus on getting the Michelle Kwan-type, now that Michelle was mentioned.

Miss Ice said:

I don't think most young girls nowadays even know of Slutskaya as a skater. A lot of them look up to Yulia Lip due to her pre and post-Sochi hype.

As for the "Wagner-type" thing, I think we should focus on getting the Michelle Kwan-type, now that Michelle was mentioned.

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Agreed! The US has a great history of ladies champions for them to draw inspiration including Kwan. They need to stop trying to package these athletes into a one brand and allow each of them to be themselves. I feel USFSA places too much on the "ice princess" in all forms and it's outdated.

All I really meant was that our next successful skater doesn't have to be a young phenom. She could be someone who rises through the ranks more gradually. And thus is better prepared for each next step. Not hit with all the pressure at once.

Please no, not any more "Wagner-types"...

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Completely agree!!

attyfan said:

IMO, someone who, like Ashley, confronts faults and works on them, has more potential to get a world medal than someone who just claims "everything is fine" and doesn't change.

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Oh I see what you did there.

USFS needs to bring back the old Junior Nationals instead of all qualifying levels going to the Nationals. By making this one change, more younger skaters would get experience at a big competition. I think this would make them "hungry."

Under the old Junior Nationals (Juv and Intermediate levels) system, the top 8 qualifiers (I think I go that number right) of each Regionals went to Nationals.
Under the new improved system, only the top 4 qualifies at each Region go to Sectionals and the top 4 from each Sectionals there go to Nationals.

I'm sure the old Junior Nationals system costs USFS more money to put on, but I think that could be off-set by getting more motivated skaters.

What did attyfan do there?

No reason to bash Ashley or "Ashley-like skaters" for not being Carol Heiss.

Speaking of Carol Heiss, America's most successful lady skater of all time, she and Ashley are two only 8 ladies since 1950 to win three US championships. (The others are Tenley Albright, Peggy Fleming, Janet Lynn, Linda Fratianne, Rosalynn Sumners, Jill Trenary, and Michelle Kwan.)

OK, so the current US ladies are skating in an era when other counties are on a roll. Good on all of them. (Go Julia!)

Miss Ice said:

I don't think most young girls nowadays even know of Slutskaya as a skater. A lot of them look up to Yulia Lip due to her pre and post-Sochi hype.

As for the "Wagner-type" thing, I think we should focus on getting the Michelle Kwan-type, now that Michelle was mentioned.

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But Slutskaya was not the sort of skater that judges favour in those days. They liked the elegant artistic sort like Michelle. Part of the reason why Slutskaya kept going for big difficult elements during 6.0 was because she knew she would never be favored over MK in the presentation and must overwhelm in the technical. For the U.S., MK is exactly the sort of classical skater that is favored, I think what we forgot is that her best strength is her hunger and competitive mental toughness and willingness to work harder as she is not the most talented. Wagner is the same sort but it is no point doing the 6.0 style as the big jumps are what are rewarded now.

sc8 said:

I like the article and enjoy seeing skating in mainstream publications. I agree with it to some extent. I'm a college professor and see lots of international students. The students from Russia and former soviet bloc are so eager to have the opportunity to improve their lot that they go to all efforts to excel, so I was thinking maybe our skaters are just not raised to be as tough. But, then I look at our women soccer, softball, gymnastics, etc., and our women are among the toughest and most talented in the world. So, I think it comes down to USFSA and the promotion of the sport. Skating should be classified as an extreme sport (because it is!). Throwing yourself in the air at immense speed, rotating four time and landing on ice with a thin blade...how much more extreme can you get. Perhaps we're not appealing to the right young girls, girls that would excel in any sport, through the "skating princess" model (it is not appealing to our young girls in the post Title IX era as other sports compete for their attention). Perhaps our culture has moved away from this sport as the number of young girls interested in the skating princess stereotype shrinks. It will require a re-casting of the sport to appeal to girls that would be gymnast stars or soccer stars. Just my perspective on the sport and its lowered interest among youth.

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I think this is it. Audiences, too, are not so much interested in beauty pageants as they once were.

But figure skating's problem is that if you forget all the princess stuff and try to make it like all the other sports, well, we already have all the other sports. Why do we need figure skating?

We need to bring back summer competitions in the US. Remember those US Olympic festivals. There was always a break out star at those competitions. I can recall Kwan, and Bobek winning. It was very competitive.

flying camel said:

We need to bring back summer competitions in the US. Remember those US Olympic festivals. There was always a break out star at those competitions. I can recall Kwan, and Bobek winning. It was very competitive.

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There is a lot to be said for this. One is that during the summer parents often are more willing to let kids travel. Another is that in the summer, when it is miserably hot out, an ice skating competition starts to sound much better.

Globetrotter said:

But Slutskaya was not the sort of skater that judges favour in those days. They liked the elegant artistic sort like Michelle. Part of the reason why Slutskaya kept going for big difficult elements during 6.0 was because she knew she would never be favored over MK in the presentation and must overwhelm in the technical. For the U.S., MK is exactly the sort of classical skater that is favored, I think what we forgot is that her best strength is her hunger and competitive mental toughness and willingness to work harder as she is not the most talented. Wagner is the same sort but it is no point doing the 6.0 style as the big jumps are what are rewarded now.

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Hmm I'd say Michelle was considerably naturally talented (a LOT, LOT more than Wagner, more so than even Gold I'd say!), given how well she skated at just 12 years old (i.e. 13 years old here at 1994 Nationals, 2nd place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hnVEfLmAuA ) ! She was a technical prodigy, something that's definitely indicative of massive natural talent, IMHO.

While the arguments in the article would make some sense, I'm not sure it's true when you look at how things actually happened. The US was once dominant, despite not having Russia's system. Russia historically wasn't strong in ladies. Did competing under 6.0 not require a competitive mindset? Perhaps finding explanations is grasping at straws, and these things simply come in cycles. Sometimes you didn't do anything wrong, and you still have no champions because this generation just lacks the nerve.

Unfortunately, these things can spiral into vicious cycles. The less competitive you are, the less interest, money, and support you generate, which in turn means fewer kids get into the sport, and those that do have less financial options...

I don't know what people are saying in terms of "supporting young talent"? If you mean being more involved in a skater's development, and sending people to more B-competitions for experience, that makes sense. But if you mean the "old" people are getting held up...? Ashley, Gracie, and Polina didn't make it to Worlds by pushing young talent off the rink. They got there because they skated best at Nationals, and skated best all year (and in the case of Polina, Karen couldn't go because of ISU rules, not USFSA rules).

Should there be an age limit--too bad, Ashley, you're too old and won't be sent to Worlds even though you're National champion? Or a limit to how many times you can go--sorry, if you went 3 times and didn't come back with a medal, you're not going ever again? I'm afraid that will only generate more pressure, worse performances, and a less competitive team. As bad as Ashley and Gracie's SPs were, a team of Mariah Bell, Tyler Pierce, or Courtney Hicks would be unlikely to do better.

There's one skater in the U.S. with a competitive mindset, and that is Samantha Cesario. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the highly valued speed/SS, can't do a -3T combination, and her -3Lo combinations get called at least <. That's where I think more attention on the developmental level could help--so that skaters like Samantha could develop the techniques valued under COP.

Miss Ice said:

Hmm I'd say Michelle was considerably naturally talented (a LOT, LOT more than Wagner, more so than even Gold I'd say!), given how well she skated at just 12 years old (i.e. 13 years old here at 1994 Nationals, 2nd place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hnVEfLmAuA ) ! She was a technical prodigy, something that's definitely indicative of massive natural talent, IMHO.

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Hmm I am not sure anyone has ever described MK as a technical prodigy. Even Frank Carroll himself said she was not the most naturally talented but she wanted it more than others and worked harder than anyone else. I think it was pretty clear that skaters like Cohen n Bobek were naturally gifted but had lousy training habits. Kwan's talent to me was not technical but more that she presented well and could relate and connect to the audience in her overall skating. It certainly helped also that she kept her focus and didn't often splat or mess up. That was what 6.0 rewarded. If you look at individual jumps and spin, I wouldn't say she was a prodigy. Slutskaya yes, but not MK. Slutskaya suffered from a lack of consistency and the occasional head case skate. It was a pity, these two pushed each other more than anyone else and it was amazing they have remained friends despite their rivalry. They were the Martina and Chris Evert equivalent of FS. If the current US ladies have some of MK n Chris Everts mental toughness, the sky is the limit. Imagine how far Gold could go if she had some of Chris Everts focus and competitive fire.

Believe me, I know ALL the Russian girls know Slutskaya. She was the first Russian ladies world titlist and is as revered in Russia as our Dorothy Hamill and Peggy Feming. Even our current crop watches their old videos for posture, edging, poise, etc.

sc8 said:

Believe me, I know ALL the Russian girls know Slutskaya. She was the first Russian ladies world titlist and is as revered in Russia as our Dorothy Hamill and Peggy Feming. Even our current crop watches their old videos for posture, edging, poise, etc.

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They watch her for her poise and posture?! I'm pretty even they don't mimic those qualities from her, or want to do so.

Krislite said:

They watch her for her poise and posture?! I'm pretty even they don't mimic those qualities from her, or want to do so.

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Globetrotter said:

Hmm I am not sure anyone has ever described MK as a technical prodigy.

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If memory serves, "skating prodigy" is exactly how almost everyone described Michelle when she first entered the figure skating spotlight. Got all her triple jumps at 11. Accomplished this and that at 12, 13, 14. Through a conscious effort on the part of Frank Carroll and Lori Nichol for the 1995-96 season, Michelle took the first steps in her the evolution from precocious jumping bean to mature artist.

Americans want to root for winners. Coming in 5th is nice and everything but it's not going to create stars. Stars drive public interest and 9+ years is a long time for any sport to be without one.