State of Russian Men's Figure Skating 2015-2016 | Golden Skate

State of Russian Men's Figure Skating 2015-2016

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
...because we all need a place of more angst and hand-wringing! :drama:

We can look at the 2014-15 season in two ways. The first: it's a solid rebuilding year. Russia had two men at GPF, two men on the podium at Europeans, and a bunch of GP medals. In juniors, they have medals from the JGP and JGPF. It's certainly an improvement over the lean years of 2006-2010.

On the other hand, the season could be described as, "started with a roar, ended with a whimper." None of the top men were able to peak at the key events of the season: Worlds, Europeans, or Jr. Worlds. Russian maintains its two spots at Worlds, which is either blessing or disappointment depending on how you look at it.

The Top 2:

Maxim Kovtun: Stormed onto the scene by winning two GPs (albeit under exceptional circumstances), over World/Olympic medallists Yuzuru Hanyu, Tatsuki Machida, and Denis Ten. He defended his Nationals title by a hair due to a strong SP. Cracks started showing at Europeans, where he won silver but made major errors in both programs. At Worlds, he finished a somewhat disappointing seventh after a meltdown SP and a solid LP.
For next year: Show some personality and genuine enjoyment of skating. And land the 4-5 planned quads--because without a loop or a flip, he has little to fall back on when the big tricks fail.

Sergei Voronov: Impressed with his consistency early in the season--medalling at both his GPs and at GPF (on his first time qualifying, no less). Skated quite well at Nationals, winning the LP and losing the title only due to his less ambitious SP and some lower PCS. However, he made costly mistakes in his LPs at Europeans (1S) and Worlds (Zayaking, among other things), dropping him down to bronze in the former and a very disappointing 13th place in the latter.
For next year: Continue showing charm and personality, while getting more transitions/field moves. Make up his mind on that second LP quad--it hasn't been clean all year and could put him face-to-face with Zayak when he pops it.

Fighting for a Top Spot:

Kontantin Menshov: A solid run on the GP (5th and 4th), where he delivered a two-quad SP for the first time. However, his unstable free skates eventually caught up to him, and he was off the podium (and off the European team) at Nationals.
For next year: Deliver a solid LP. Whether it contains one, two, or three quads is almost irrelevant. He just has to show some stability in the segment, or else making teams in the future could only get harder...

Adian Pitkeev: The World Jr. silver medallist had an fine but not spectacular debut on the senior GP series (6th and 6th), where he attempted quads for the first time, with mixed success. His strongest performances came at Nationals, where he medalled and earned a trip to Europeans. However, illness and injury derailed him, leading to lower-than-expected placements at Europeans (7th) and Jr. Worlds (5th).
For next year: Learn how to handle the quad along with the rest of his repertoire. Come out of his shell more as a performer.

Alexander Petrov: This promising junior was flying high for the first half of the season: medalling at his JGPs and at JGPF, plus winning several Senior B's with impressive marks and strong performances. However, his consistency seemed to disappear for the second half of the year. Perhaps due to an unfortunate slew of illnesses, he bombed his LP at Nationals, Jr. Nationals (lost the segment but won overall), and Jr. Worlds.
For next year: Find his consistency again. Make sure the height and quality of his triples get back to where they were at the start of this season (vs. how they looked at Jr. Worlds). The quad will also be needed if he moves up to seniors.

The Wildcards:

Artur Gachinski: The former World/European medallist made a high-profile coaching change, moving from Alexei Mishin to Tatiana Tarasova('s group). So far, his results have seen no uptick (his worst finishes on the GP series to date + 6th at Nationals + 3rd at Universiade). Perhaps his issues will take time to sort out.
For next year: Find his love for skating again. That's all.

Evgeni Plushenko: Says he will compete again. And I'll leave it there.

This is the place to discuss these men (and others) on Team Russia. What are some promising signs, and what are some things they need to work on? Can Russia improve the men's results next year--what are some realistic goals? Can they ever "regain their past glory" :)drama:), or did a few greats simply produce more prestige for the discipline than Russia's actual depth could handle?
 
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silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
Oh great...I can already imagine how this thread will go. :slink: Obviously I'm one of the biggest fans of the Russian guys on here...

Well, I think there is some incredibly promising talent around the 12-13 year old range that gets ignored almost entirely. And many very good juniors & seniors who just need more stability. But that's true of the men from every country, yet they don't seem to get trashed or dismissed the way the Russian men do. Some seem to think that if they aren't on par with Plushenko, then they suck, as if it's so black and white. Nobody else can be him, it's physically impossible. So I wish people would first of all quit comparing everyone to him or Yagudin, and looking at them all as the individuals that they are. I don't think that's going to happen, so my time on this thread may be short.

edit - sorry to sound negative, but I already anticipate a visit from the usual suspects to this thread...

Here's a couple recent articles about Konstantin Menshov and his plans...I would like to find out more about these new technologies he's using to increase endurance (in the 2nd article). I wonder if Plushy is using the same ones?

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20150316/815394486.html
http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20150316/815394048.html
 
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Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
I'm most looking forward to Petrov and how he will develop.
He has an energetic style, listens to the music, has big jumps, and of all the Russian guys, I see the most potential in him.
I know he wasn't well at Junior Worlds...any news from him?

Adien is another promising skater that I'd like to see improve. At the present moment, he doesn't seem very engaged in his programs, but I understand he was also injured for the last half of the season? Is he going to go fully Senior in the 2015-16 season?
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Oh great...I can already imagine how this thread will go. :slink: Obviously I'm one of the biggest fans of the Russian guys on here...

Well, I think there is some incredibly promising talent around the 12-13 year old range that gets ignored almost entirely. And many very good juniors & seniors who just need more stability. But that's true of the men from every country, yet they don't seem to get trashed or dismissed the way the Russian men do. Some seem to think that if they aren't on par with Plushenko, then they suck, as if it's so black and white. Nobody else can be him, it's physically impossible. So I wish people would first of all quit comparing everyone to him or Yagudin, and looking at them all as the individuals that they are. I don't think that's going to happen, so my time on this thread may be short.

edit - sorry to sound negative, but I already anticipate a visit from the usual suspects to this thread...

Here's a couple recent articles about Konstantin Menshov and his plans...I would like to find out more about these new technologies he's using to increase endurance (in the 2nd article). I wonder if Plushy is using the same ones?

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20150316/815394486.html
http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20150316/815394048.html
I don't think legitimate concern is necessarily bashing. Russian men aren't really doing better or worse than a lot of countries' men. But there is prestige and success attached to the discipline in Russia. Sorta like the American ladies--of course things could be worse, and I've said so many times on that thread. But I understand being being disappointed with a long medal drought, speculating if they need more competitive experience, ect.

I apologize if my first post sounded negative or trying to drum up drama (I meant it half-jokingly, but perhaps it didn't come across). I didn't mean it as, "let's nitpick them!" Simply: "how are they currently doing, and what will it take for them to reach the top?"

Thank you for the links. To be honest, I'm surprised Menshov wants to try as many as 3 quads. A clean 1-quad LP probably would've gotten him bronze at Nationals and a trip to Europeans... Maybe he thinks he needs his maximum to not be overlooked for team selection next year? (In case any of the following happens: Pitkeev getting stronger, Petrov turning senior, Plushenko coming back, Gachinski having a resurgence, ect.)

I'm most looking forward to Petrov and how he will develop.
He has an energetic style, listens to the music, has big jumps, and of all the Russian guys, I see the most potential in him.
I know he wasn't well at Junior Worlds...any news from him?

Adien is another promising skater that I'd like to see improve. At the present moment, he doesn't seem very engaged in his programs, but I understand he was also injured for the last half of the season? Is he going to go fully Senior in the 2015-16 season?
The latest news about Petrov seems to be, he's 50/50 on going senior. And I'm 50/50 whether that's a good idea. (It depends on the state of his jumps next year: getting a quad, whether he can regain his consistency on the triples, ect. He's been battling with illness, plus he's at that age where he could be doing some growing.)

Imo, Adian just needs to get more comfortable with his jumps (quad especially), so he can loosen up. I thought he made improvements in presentation, but his injuries/inconsistency affected his results. We could say he already went "fully senior." Russia just had no third spot at Worlds to give him. :cry: And they won't have one next year either.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I will never lose faith in Artur. <3
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
The state of Russian Men's figure skating is that PLUSHENKO is coming back and the other guys will have to fight like dogs for the 1 remaining spot at Worlds. Nothing will stop the KING. Whoever the other lucky person is that gets to join Plushenko at Worlds, they will need to make sure to bring a lot of boot polish and spare rags to keep Plushenko's boots clean. He doesn't have the time, nor the energy after strenuous practices at his advanced age, to clean that himself. Kings get to do other things.
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
Will Artur even get GP assignments this season? :think: Maybe just CoR?

Part of me wonders if Plushy returning will affect Petrov's training. I love Mishin, but...remember how he said it was a huge weight off of him when he didn't have Artur & Plushy last year, so he could focus more on Liza & Sasha. And he gave an interview the other day about the rink conditions for his 2 star students, and Sasha didn't even warrant a mention (well, he says "Liza & Evgeni, and other promising skaters in our group").

http://tass.ru/sport/1913752
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Will Artur even get GP assignments this season? :think: Maybe just CoR?

Part of me wonders if Plushy returning will affect Petrov's training. I love Mishin, but...remember how he said it was a huge weight off of him when he didn't have Artur & Plushy last year, so he could focus more on Liza & Sasha. And he gave an interview the other day about the rink conditions for his 2 star students, and Sasha didn't even warrant a mention (well, he says "Liza & Evgeni, and other promising skaters in our group").

http://tass.ru/sport/1913752
Artur is currently 52 on the Season's Best list, 44 on World Standings, and 99 on World Rankings. I don't know what this means in terms of GP assignments, but it doesn't sound good. :hopelessness:

I think (hope) Sasha will be fine. Last season was pretty hectic in that it was Olympic year, Plushy had screws in his back and had to relearn jumps from singles, Liza was going through her toughest period of puberty, and Artur was... dealing with whatever went on with him. Now no one's under that stressful Olympic deadline.

Sasha just had some bad luck in terms of illness at the end of this year. Hopefully he'll make some progress over the summer and next year will run more smoothly.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Attempting to breathe some life into this thread with... stats and analysis. I'm compete the wrong person to do this, but I'll give it a try. (To all the "Support the new generation of Russian men! Don't let it be about Plushenko!" people... his thread has gathered over 10 pages of comments and this one struggles to leave page 1 :slink:).

Season's Best Total Scores (http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2014-15/sbtsmto.htm)
11 Sergei Voronov (252.00, CoR)
12 Maxim Kovtun (243.35, TEB)
18 Konstantin Menshov (233.22, TEB)
20 Alexander Petrov (231.53, Warsaw Cup)
29 Adian Pitkeev (219.38, TEB)
41 Moris Kvitelashvili (207.77, Golden Spin)
43 Gordei Gorshkov (206.55, O. Nepela Trophy)
47 Andrei Lazukin (202.68, JGP Pokal der Blauen Schwerter)
51 Alexander Samarin (201.70, Jr. Worlds)
52 Artur Gachinski (201.26, CoR)

Analysis: With the exception of Samarin (!), the Russian men earned their best scores at GPs or Senior B's. This is consistent with what I observed in the first post--that the men started the season better than they ended it.

It's interesting to see Voronov's SB being almost 10 points higher than Kovtun's, despite 1) losing 3/4 match-ups (3/5 if we count WTT, 2/3 if we discount Nationals) 2) being known as the more consistent skater. It seems like Kovtun is more "consistent" in terms of his scores. Voronov has higher chances of delivering a "good" performance, which actually causes his scores to fluctuate rather than staying stable. And when he messes up, his errors are more costly under COP than Kovtun's (Zayaking/singled jumps, vs. Kovtun's doubles/falls/messy landings).

Pitkeev had his best skate at Nationals, hence why his place on the SB list looks oddly low. A bit worrying for Gachinski, to be below several relative nobodies...

I feel like I should also analyze best TES/PCS for each segment. Maybe another day, if anyone's interested. (Maybe I should clean up the first post and make it more exciting? :confused2:)
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
It's interesting to see Voronov's SB being almost 10 points higher than Kovtun's, despite 1) losing 3/4 match-ups (3/5 if we count WTT, 2/3 if we discount Nationals) 2) being known as the more consistent skater. It seems like Kovtun is more "consistent" in terms of his scores. Voronov has higher chances of delivering a "good" performance, which actually causes his scores to fluctuate rather than staying stable. And when he messes up, his errors are more costly under COP than Kovtun's (Zayaking/singled jumps, vs. Kovtun's doubles/falls/messy landings).

Pitkeev had his best skate at Nationals, hence why his place on the SB list looks oddly low. A bit worrying for Gachinski, to be below several relative nobodies...

I feel like I should also analyze best TES/PCS for each segment. Maybe another day, if anyone's interested. (Maybe I should clean up the first post and make it more exciting? :confused2:)

It's the same story for Kostya - I guess my faves are as bad at math as I am. :slink: I do appreciate your analysis, being not so great with stats myself.

Presumably Mikhail Kolyada and Zhan Bush intend to compete again this season, unless someone knows differently. And then the likely possibility of Petrov turning senior as well, + Plushy, and you have lots of Russian men in the mix now. Where will Artur stand relative to them...and Moris, Gordei, Adian? And what of that other poor Artur - Dmitriev Jr.? Is he still planning to continue?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
It's just really bad and unfortunate. Voronov had his medals but his worst program of the season wasnt going anywhere at worlds ever even if he was clean. His exhibition was not North American proper. His pcs was mediocre. The new mediocre. Non world medal level. Kovtun is being thrown out to do as many quads as possible with no artistry and its ridiculous. Cut back on quads get something called choreo. Voronov if he's going to do choreo needs North American proper. Like for ice dance russian federation brought in technical callers from outside and all men need to go to North American proper school of choreo. Start being more balanced in jumps and artistry.
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
It's just really bad and unfortunate. Voronov had his medals but his worst program of the season wasnt going anywhere at worlds ever even if he was clean. His exhibition was not North American proper. His pcs was mediocre. The new mediocre. Non world medal level. Kovtun is being thrown out to do as many quads as possible with no artistry and its ridiculous. Cut back on quads get something called choreo. Voronov if he's going to do choreo needs North American proper. Like for ice dance russian federation brought in technical callers from outside and all men need to go to North American proper school of choreo. Start being more balanced in jumps and artistry.

I'm a fan of the Russians over the Americans for a reason. I don't like lyrical skating very much at all - it puts me to sleep. The Japanese guys don't skate "North American proper" (whatever that's supposed to mean) and it doesn't hinder them. So the last thing I'd ever want is for the Russian guys to turn into a bunch of NA clones. But if I understand correctly, Sergei is going to work with a non-Russian choreographer this season.
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I'm a fan of the Russians over the Americans for a reason. I don't like lyrical skating very much at all - it puts me to sleep. The Japanese guys don't skate "North American proper" (whatever that's supposed to mean) and it doesn't hinder them. So the last thing I'd ever want is for the Russian guys to turn into a bunch of NA clones. But if I understand correctly, Sergei is going to work with a non-Russian choreographer this season.

At least two of the Japanese gp winners have North American Coaches with orser and Carroll who do the kinds of programs that are needed and necessary for success. Voronov certainly did not and confused infamy and aghast reactions as positives. Well it wasn't boredom and indifference but his program should have been abandoned. Kovtun never even learned one. They both need programs that would sell to judges and could be approved by orser or Carroll.
 

owl

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
At least two of the Japanese gp winners have North American Coaches with orser and Carroll who do the kinds of programs that are needed and necessary for success. Voronov certainly did not and confused infamy and aghast reactions as positives. Well it wasn't boredom and indifference but his program should have been abandoned. Kovtun never even learned one. They both need programs that would sell to judges and could be approved by orser or Carroll.

Coming from someone who prefers neither Kovtun's nor Voronov's skating, I don't think "North American"-izing their skating will be good. I mean, sure, I'm not the biggest fans of them, but that's only MY preference, and there are plenty of others who do prefer what some may call "less artistic". Also, I think what works for a skater works for him, and what works for another skater works for that skater. That being said, I do agree that it would be great if they could get some better choreography--especially Kovtun--but I don't think giving them "North American" programs is the way to go. It's fun and interesting to have variety in skating, and I think the goal should just be finding programs that have a bit more choreographically, while still allowing them to focus on what they want to focus on (in this case, jumps)
 
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