Jump technique discussion

So seeing a discussion about jump technique in the Yulia comeback thread made me think that perhaps conversations about jump technique might be very informative in their own thread. As a non-skater, I don't know much about how to recognize good jump technique versus bad jump technique. What is "good" technique on the different jumps, and what is "bad" technique? (Aside from the obvious...edge calls, URs, etc).

Which skaters have the best technique in each of the different types of jumps? Whose technique has improved over the years, and whose has worsened? (Not that this is a thread for lauding your faves for their technique and tearing down your non-faves for their bad technique). Are there any coaches known for teaching the best technique (and alternatively, coaches who teach pretty terrible technique)? I see jump technique discussed fairly often in relation to different skaters, and making a thread for centralized technique discussion might help many of us non-experts to learn a thing or two.

andromache said:

Which skaters have the best technique in each of the different types of jumps?

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Liza's lutz

An interesting thing I noticed about jump exits while watching the Ladies JW performances.

Both Evgenia and Serafima had not much flow out of their jumps, but landed all their jumps.
Main difference was that on landing Evgenia kept her foot steady on the ice whereas Serafima's foot wobbled quite a bit in some of her landings.

What is causes this wobble to happen and what makes it happen less?

andromache said:

So seeing a discussion about jump technique in the Yulia comeback thread made me think that perhaps conversations about jump technique might be very informative in their own thread. As a non-skater, I don't know much about how to recognize good jump technique versus bad jump technique. What is "good" technique on the different jumps, and what is "bad" technique? (Aside from the obvious...edge calls, URs, etc).

Which skaters have the best technique in each of the different types of jumps? Whose technique has improved over the years, and whose has worsened? (Not that this is a thread for lauding your faves for their technique and tearing down your non-faves for their bad technique). Are there any coaches known for teaching the best technique (and alternatively, coaches who teach pretty terrible technique)? I see jump technique discussed fairly often in relation to different skaters, and making a thread for centralized technique discussion might help many of us non-experts to learn a thing or two.

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Well, as a skater myself, the thing my coach gets on me about most is air position. It's very important to stay straight up and down, with your legs together tightly and your arms close to the body, to get the full rotation (as well as being more aesthetically pleasing). Examples of bad air position include the "4 leg wrap" (where the free leg is pulled out and across the skating leg while rotating), which is not as common but a bunch of skaters at my rink do it, and bending your knees in the air (I'm particularly thinking of Courtney Hicks on this one, because her feet have a tendency to get almost exaggeratedly crossed in jumps). This may be a personal thing, but I also like it when skaters point their toes during jumps.

Second, a big part of good technique is flow. You want your entire jump, entry to exit, to be controlled. The skater I think of when somebody mentions lack of flow in jumps is Elena Radionova, because, while her jumps are okay, they're often really sloppy-she gets kind of out of control in the air and she usually manages to pull it together before she lands, but it's not good technique. Her jumps have an unfortunate combination of sloppy air position, too much speed (to the extent that she can't control her position), and scary landings that look like they're just about to splat...I love her but her jump technique is far from ideal. Somebody who does have excellent flow is Elena's main rival, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva. She gets just the right amount of speed going in, stays tight and controlled in the air, and lands smoothly-she really has the ideal jumps. (This is coming from me, who is definitely not her biggest fan, so that says a lot about her!) For most skaters, though, it's really neither; most fall somewhere between the two (with some exceptions).

For me, something I really look at is the entry, and I'm not just talking about transitions. There are two skaters who have jump entries that drive me absolutely nuts (and I actually like both of them-just the entry drives me nuts): Kanako Murakami's flip and Samantha Cesario's lutz/flutz. On Kanako's flip, she only reaches her toe back about two inches before she taps in, which always makes me want to scream "FIX YOUR EXTENSION!!!" at the screen. Samantha's lutz (flutz?) has the exact opposite problem. When she goes into it, she raises her leg so high it's basically a spiral and then slams it down onto the ice to tap in...and it's just slightly sideways the whole time, which makes it all the more irritating. I do not know why she does this but it annoys me so much (still love you Sammi ).

Well, that was my two cents...

I think Liza has the best lutz of everyone. Maybe even the guys. This video shows textbook technique first of her flip then her lutz. Correct entrance, edge, and smooth landing. I may giggle at the hand gestures she does but apparently she takes this kind of thing very seriously. I'm not going to argue with that

https://youtu.be/3psNs0meQ14

I don't however feel that everyone needs to jump this crisp and clean to get positive GOE.

Interesting thread.

I should be working, so of course I went on statsonice.com to have a look at what the judges think.
Here are the all time highest scoring, and therefore supposedly the "best" quality triple jumps:

Sr Men

3A: Yuzuru Hanyu, +2.86 at Worlds 2014
3Lz: Vaughn Cipheur, +2.0 at Nebelhorn Trophy 2006, then Brown, Oda, Rippon, Chan, Yan, Machida, +1.60 at various events
3F: Nobunari Oda, +2.0 at GPF 2009 & Michal Brezina, +2.0 at Nebelhorn Trophy 2009
3Lo: Shawn Sawyer, +1.80 at SA 2009
3T: Tomas Verner, +1.80 at Ice Challenge 2009 & Sergei Voronov, +1.80 at TEB 2007
3S: Brian Joubert, +1.80 at SC 2007

Sr Ladies:

2A: Rochette, Nagasu & Asada, +2.0 at various events
3Lz: Shizuka Arakawa, +2.81 at SC 2003
3F: Yuna Kim, +2.00 at Worlds 2010
3Lo: Susanna Pöykiö, +1.63 at NHK 2003 then Adelina Sotnikova, +1.60 at Olympics 2014
3T: Shizuka Arakawa. +1.55 at SC 2003
3S: Sasha Cohen, +1.80 at SC 2003
(3A: Mao Asada, +1.86 at Worlds 2014)

Highest scoring does not equate to best technique. Although skaters with good technique do get higher GOE in general, there are many other factors that influence GOE. I've seen many skaters with poor technique get very high GOE.

I've always though Mao had a fantastic 2A (huge, especially during her peak years around 2006-2008) and a great 3Loop. Her loop especially, but then as her money jump its to be expected. It's quick, snappy, but with a gorgeous delay and almost always rotated (even in combination, most of the time IMO).

Kim and Liza's lutz are both textbook lutzes. Gold's is marvellous in terms of height and distance but it isn't aesthetically pleasing to me. Not as much as Kim's and Liza's. All great techniques, but I love a pretty, effortless jump that doesn't look muscled.

TMC said:

Interesting thread.

I should be working, so of course I went on statsonice.com to have a look at what the judges think.
Here are the all time highest scoring, and therefore supposedly the "best" quality triple jumps:

Sr Men

3A: Yuzuru Hanyu, +2.86 at Worlds 2014

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Hanyu actually had a perfect +3 for his SP 3A at CoC 2014. But maybe those stats weren't included yet

Li'Kitsu said:

Hanyu actually had a perfect +3 for his SP 3A at CoC 2014. But maybe those stats weren't included yet

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No, there seems to be some stats sort of missing from statsonice. They have 2015 Worlds though, so I don't know why CoC isn't there yet?

Just noticed that Han Yan also got +2.86 for his 3A at the Olympics. Personally I think he has the best 3A of the men. Like ever.

TMC said:

No, there seems to be some stats sort of missing from statsonice. They have 2015 Worlds though, so I don't know why CoC isn't there yet?

Just noticed that Han Yan also got +2.86 for his 3A at the Olympics. Personally I think he has the best 3A of the men. Like ever.

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Hanyu's 3A is higher with difficult entry (like the most difficult ever), Han Yan's 3A is longer. To which suits one taste. Both are absolute stunning.
But Kulik's 3A has the best soft landing ever.

One thing I think is part of good and bad technique is the use of arms. For example, one coach made me notice how Liza jumps. Her body is like a Block, rotating all together. She uses her arms the minimum she needs but its not how she create the rotation, its particularly noticeable in her axel.
It contributes to great technique with control.

TMC said:

Interesting thread.

3Lz: Shizuka Arakawa, +2.81 at SC 2003

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This didn't happen, not sure where you got the GOE number.

For me, I would look to the skaters who are the most reliable jumpers, as that indicates their technique holds up even under competitive pressure. Yuna obviously has solid technique but she doesn't do the loop and her salchow isn't the best. I would probably say, like others, that Liza has the best technique because she does all the different triples properly and very reliably.

drivingmissdaisy said:

For me, I would look to the skaters who are the most reliable jumpers, as that indicates their technique holds up even under competitive pressure.

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Carolina Kostner would disagree with that.

And Maxim Kovtun looks not that less consistent with his quads than guys with better technique.

Add Oda to the beautiful buttery landings category

imo ideal jumps are wide, high, with no swingy arms or prerotated upper body, tight position in the air, have a lot of flow in and out of the jump with a controlled, solid landing.

drivingmissdaisy said:

For me, I would look to the skaters who are the most reliable jumpers, as that indicates their technique holds up even under competitive pressure. Yuna obviously has solid technique but she doesn't do the loop and her salchow isn't the best. I would probably say, like others, that Liza has the best technique because she does all the different triples properly and very reliably.

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For Lutz I prefer Yuna and Carolina who get a good combination of height and distance. Liza has a very high lutz, but it doesn't travel as far as the other two. She definitely has the best Lutz of the current field of ladies and it's always so airy! As for the flip, I don't really like Liza's flip, it's kind of awkward on the landing and has probably the least flow out of all her jumps. Carolina probably has the best consistent flip. I really like Yuna's flip at 2013 Worlds, but she has not reproduced its quality. While it's not technically part of jumping technique, Yuna never looks back to see where she is going which makes the overall jump look that much better--she always knows where she is at all times.

jkun said:

For Lutz I prefer Yuna and Carolina who get a good combination of height and distance. Liza has a very high lutz, but it doesn't travel as far as the other two. She definitely has the best Lutz of the current field of ladies and it's always so airy! As for the flip, I don't really like Liza's flip, it's kind of awkward on the landing and has probably the least flow out of all her jumps. Carolina probably has the best consistent flip. I really like Yuna's flip at 2013 Worlds, but she has not reproduced its quality. While it's not technically part of jumping technique, Yuna never looks back to see where she is going which makes the overall jump look that much better--she always knows where she is at all times.

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i agree! that bothered me a lot watching some of the skaters, i love her worlds 2009 SP 3F3T, she flies into the jump So Youn has really solid jump technique as well, unfortunately not so strong mentally :hopelessness:

matmuh said:

i agree! that bothered me a lot watching some of the skaters, i love her worlds 2009 SP 3F3T, she flies into the jump So Youn has really solid jump technique as well, unfortunately not so strong mentally :hopelessness:

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I loved that 3F-3T too! It was huge and the flow she gets out of her 3-3s are just fantastic, what a great performance that was

jkun said:

This didn't happen, not sure where you got the GOE number.

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Yeah it was actually only +2.00 according to this