Who is/was the stronger skater of the partnership?

TheGrandSophy · Jul 23, 2015

One thing that has interested me is when knowlegeable fans or commentators say that one member of a pair or dance team is or was better than the other. Often though, it is taken 'as read' by people in a discussion and not much detail of why is given. Sometimes it is obvious why even to me, but sometimes I am clueless.

So, in the interests of informing the less 'in the know', who of past and present partnerships, both in pairs and dance, are/were the better skaters than their partners and, more importantly, WHY? Even better will be if you can illustrate it with video evidence so people like me can learn! And, if it isn't cut and dried, what strengths perhaps do each partner bring to the ice?

OS · Jul 23, 2015

That is a very good question. I am not that knowledgeable about pairs or dance, but I have always thought Scott Moir has amazing presence on ice, assured form, posture (how he uses his head, back, torso not sure if that makes sense), confidence, intensity, yet natural ease with the blade (caresses and kisses) that practically dominated Tessa's more demure and charming presence (Until Carmen). Can't take my eyes off him when he is on ice. Sorry not much detail beyond amateur reading, but do try to watch them live, it can make a huge difference to your perceptions.

Skategmt · Jul 23, 2015

When Elena I. And Nikita K. skated together at Sochi, I saw Elena as the stronger parter. Her "acting" in their Swan Lake Free Dance was so captivating, while Nikita on the other hand, wasn't memorable like Elena.

Coltrocks12 · Jul 23, 2015

A lot of Canadians claim that Charlie is the better partner but Meryl sells the emotion and artistry better than Charlie does so they give and take. Most really good teams are well matched. I think that Evan is better than Madison C technically but again she sells the artistry and emotion better. I would be interested to see other answers. I am not an expert, just a fan.

burntBREAD · Jul 23, 2015

I agree that many teams are balanced in that the two usually balance each other out to create an overall package.

Of course, then there's teams like Fusar-Poli dragging Margaglio around the rink. :laugh:

bramweld · Jul 23, 2015

Skategmt said:
When Elena I. And Nikita K. skated together at Sochi, I saw Elena as the stronger parter. Her "acting" in their Swan Lake Free Dance was so captivating, while Nikita on the other hand, wasn't memorable like Elena.

I think Elena was also stronger in the SD. Technically she is the stronger partner but I think artistically they balanced each other out. But in the SD dance Katsalapov does come across as younger than her emotionally if that makes any sense.

Skategmt · Jul 23, 2015

bramweld said:
I think Elena was also stronger in the SD. Technically she is the stronger partner but I think artistically they balanced each other out. But in the SD dance Katsalapov does come across as younger than her emotionally if that makes any sense.

When I think of I/K, I remember their free from Sochi, but what made me interested in watching their free was seeing Elena in the short.

I haven't watched the SD in a long time, but I think I get what you mean by saying Katsalpov comes across younger

Violet Bliss · Jul 23, 2015

There have been cases of successful Pairs and Dance skaters looking for new partners and deciding to work with less skilled and less experienced skaters such that there really is/was an obvious difference in their levels. Examples are Jana Khokhlova with Fedor Andreev, Paul Poirier with Piper Gilles, Narumi Takahashi with Ryuichi Kihara, Kriten Moore-Towers with Muchaek Marinaro, Zhang Hao with Peng Cheng, and even Zhao Hongbo with Shen Xue who eventually turned out to be one of the best Pairs partnerships ever.

andromache · Jul 24, 2015

So for Chock/Bates, I really think Madison is the obvious face of the team--she really, really knows how to perform. But I've heard/read that she's a pretty weak partner in regards to her skating skills, and that Evan Bates has very strong skating skills. Can someone explain or point to specific video moments that show this? I'm not doubting what people who know more than I have said, but I'm still new to paying much attention to ice dance and I'd like to learn what to look for. I've heard similar things re: Papadakis/Cizeron (although personality-wise I find them much more balanced than Chock/Bates, but I've heard that Papadakis doesn't have great skating skills whereas Cizeron's are great).

lyverbird1 · Jul 24, 2015

bazarova and Larionov in terms of technical prowess and artistic merit separately - Vera: such a pretty lady but with minimal jumping prowess - I found it difficult to watch them in technical elements, she carried the programmes artisically but then let them down technically. I guess I'm saying that in some partnerships it is possible for one partner to carry the team in one side of the skating but then be the weak link in other elements.

uhh · Jul 24, 2015

andromache said:
So for Chock/Bates, I really think Madison is the obvious face of the team--she really, really knows how to perform. But I've heard/read that she's a pretty weak partner in regards to her skating skills, and that Evan Bates has very strong skating skills. Can someone explain or point to specific video moments that show this? I'm not doubting what people who know more than I have said, but I'm still new to paying much attention to ice dance and I'd like to learn what to look for. I've heard similar things re: Papadakis/Cizeron (although personality-wise I find them much more balanced than Chock/Bates, but I've heard that Papadakis doesn't have great skating skills whereas Cizeron's are great).

Firstly, Gabriella has improved a lot recently, so you won't see this so much in their programs this year, but previously, you could see through their choreo that it was designed to hide her weaknesses in comparison to him - watch the in hold step sequences for example and you'll see that he's often almost placing her on the correct edge rather than her being strong enough to get there cleanly on her own. Other things to watch for are how much a skater uses their upper body to get their turns around - Kaitlyn Weaver does this a lot, again because she's not as strong in using her knees to generate power & speed as Andrew, so for their step sequences to match she needs to pull in a bit more oomph from somewhere else. I would link a video to show this but I'm at work - the only thing I can think of is watching I/Z's SD NtStSq from this season - everything came from the legs, and they kept their upper bodies square and didn't need to pull themselves round with the arms, or get their shoulders out of line at all. Compare than with P/C's non touching sequence at either TEB or COC, I can't remember which one it was, but there was an occasion in the 1st half of the season where you can see Gabi trying to achieve the same level of generating power through her turns just using the knee bend, but she doesn't get enough & so towards the end of the sequence she fades, loses speed and then consequently can't execute the end of the sequence cleanly.

shmay · Jul 24, 2015

This seems to be slightly less common today than back in the day? I mean, back in the day there were teams that were so horribly imbalanced it was comical...like Usova and Zhulin, the Duchesnays, Bestemianova and Bukin, etc. And the aforementioned Fusar-Poli and Margalio.

A less extreme example would be Drobiazako and Vanagas.

Important to note that the stereotype is that talented female skaters will settle for inferior male partners because of the slim pickens, but in the majority of the teams mentioned above the woman was the weaker skater.

solani · Jul 24, 2015

os168 said:
That is a very good question. I am not that knowledgeable about pairs or dance, but I have always thought Scott Moir has amazing presence on ice, assured form, posture (how he uses his head, back, torso not sure if that makes sense), confidence, intensity, yet natural ease with the blade (caresses and kisses) that practically dominated Tessa's more demure and charming presence (Until Carmen). Can't take my eyes off him when he is on ice. Sorry not much detail beyond amateur reading, but do try to watch them live, it can make a huge difference to your perceptions.

Interesting, I always tought that Tessa and Scott are amazingly evenly matched, both artistically and technically. There are programs where I more drawn to him (Cherbourgh) and other programs where I'm more drawn to her (Hip Hip Chin Chin), but I look at both of them equally overall.

shmay said:
This seems to be slightly less common today than back in the day? I mean, back in the day there were teams that were so horribly imbalanced it was comical...like Usova and Zhulin, the Duchesnays, Bestemianova and Bukin, etc. And the aforementioned Fusar-Poli and Margalio.

Bestemianova and Bukin didn't need any imbalance to look comical. :biggrin:

Sorry, this is offtopic, but when I read your post it reminded me of that laugh.

TheGrandSophy · Jul 24, 2015

I was very young when Bestemianova and Bulin were on the scene, but my whole family and I could not stand them because they were too frenzied, frantic and overly 'dramatic' for our tastes (not just because of T/D!

). Therefore, I haven't seen much of them since then, so it is interesting to hear that he was the better skater.

I am particularly interested in the technical and skating skills side as artistically and performance-wise we all have varied tastes. For example, I remember as a child loving the Duschenays, yet looking back at their performances now, whilst I still love their programmes, I can see even with my non-tech expert eyes, what people mean about Isabelle having less skill than Paul.

So, yes, anyone with some knowledge wanting to contribute with examples of why one shows less technical assurance or skating skills than another in a pair would be greatly appreciated! It is very interesting. E.g. Uhh, please drop in when you can and give some examples! That sounds fascinating.

aromaticchicken · Jul 24, 2015

Inoue and Baldwin - it was clear that when it at least came to jumps, he was the weaker skater (he could never land them!!)

Stolbova and Klimov - they are both *fantastic* skaters, but many people seem to say she actually has even stronger skating skills. In particular, she has amazing height on her jumps. The fact she (and obviously both of them) have been practicing 3T-3T and getting it CLEAN, easily!! is incredible for a pairs lady. I'm not even sure Valentina Marchei -- who is an amazing singles skater in her own right -- would attempt and accomplish that, and she's even doing SBS Lutzes with Ondrej.

Violet Bliss · Jul 24, 2015

psusanne said:
Interesting, I always tought that Tessa and Scott are amazingly evenly matched, both artistically and technically. There are programs where I more drawn to him (Cherbourgh) and other programs where I'm more drawn to her (Hip Hip Chin Chin), but I look at both of them equally overall.

I too think they are extremely well matched. Hard to imagine either of them with somebody else.

Bestemianova and Bukin didn't need any imbalance to look comical. Sorry, this is offtopic, but when I read your post it reminded me of that laugh.

What a program with all those repetitive moves. She gets all my attention but for bad reasons

lauravvv · Jul 24, 2015

TheGrandSophy said:
I was very young when Bestemianova and Bulin were on the scene, but my whole family and I could not stand them because they were too frenzied, frantic and overly 'dramatic' for our tastes (not just because of T/D!). Therefore, I haven't seen much of them since then, so it is interesting to hear that he was the better skater.

I am sure shmay meant that Bestemianova was the better skater - it is quite widely known.

shmay · Jul 24, 2015

lauravvv said:
I am sure shmay meant that Bestemianova was the better skater - it is quite widely known.

Yes, indeed.

TheGrandSophy · Jul 24, 2015

Ah, okay, thanks. Honestly, I haven't watched more than a 5 sec clip since the '80s I don't think! Must at some point and see if they are like I remember.

rollerblade · Jul 24, 2015

Volosozhar and Morozov is the imbalanced pair I remember. He was so out of shape and their skates always gave me this feeling like he's holding her back.... I felt for her big time. (although I was told from people here, that he stayed on just so she could have a partner to skate with, before she teamed up with Trankov)

Who is/was the stronger skater of the partnership?

TheGrandSophy

OS

Sedated by Modonium

Skategmt

Coltrocks12

burntBREAD

bramweld

Skategmt

Violet Bliss

andromache

lyverbird1

uhh

shmay

solani

TheGrandSophy

aromaticchicken

Violet Bliss

lauravvv

shmay

TheGrandSophy

rollerblade

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