PCS discussion

Here are some lesser known free skates from the men's events at the 1998 Olympics and Worlds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHTSI3MisKc Cousins O
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX499ZyEVLY Guo O
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTG6swQ-T8Q Tyllesen O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIz6fHxzu2o Langdon W
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gFcd6q_s3E Pliuta W
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-_oVk39yB4 Vidrai W

I chose these performances because they placed in the (bottom half of the) top 10 at their respective competitions but have not been analyzed to death elsewhere, they represent a fairly wide variety of approaches, and there's no authoritative version of how official panels would score them on PCS so we can just share our own evaluations without worrying whether they're "right" or "wrong."

Inspired by the discussion in the Skating Skills thread, I thought it might be interesting to discuss how we think the Skating Skills and Choreography in each of these performances should be scored, if they were being skated under IJS with 2015 expectations.

I thought it might help to focus just on two components, but feel free to mention Transitions, Performance/Execution, and Interpretation as relevant.

How would you come up with numbers for SS and CH for any or all of these programs, given your understanding of the kinds of scores that 2015 programs would receive?

gkelly said:

Here are some lesser known free skates from the men's events at the 1998 Olympics and Worlds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX499ZyEVLY Guo O

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wow, quad toe as last jump in free skate ok, there was no choreo before, and it was not that hard free skate overall but still ...

My friend suggested maybe the can adjust the factoring. What about multiple PCS by 1.2 (in sp, multiple by 0.6) and then add 30 (in sp, add 15).

Cousins - SS: 6.00 - CH: 5.75 - Powerful, but slow and stiff; tried to match the music.
Guo- SS: 3.75 - CH: 1.75 - So slow, not many turns or steps at all and too many pauses to call that choreography.
Tyllesen - SS: 4.00 - CH: 1.50 - no choreography; all turns in one direction; posture and arms need more work.

Langdon - SS: 5.25 - CH: 5.50 - did not execute well at all but seemed to have a decent program.
Pliuta - SS: 4.75 - CH: 5.25 - good jumps but not much else
Vidrai - SS: 4.00 - CH: 2.75 - might have been better with a different program but really??

Meoima said:

My friend suggested maybe the can adjust the factoring. What about multiple PCS by 1.2 (in sp, multiple by 0.6) and then add 30 (in sp, add 15).

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What would be the objective? To bunch PCSs more closely together, thus effectively making the TES a little more important?

Mathman said:

What would be the objective? To bunch PCSs more closely together, thus effectively making the TES a little more important?

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If the factoring is reduced, maybe the judges will be more willing to give a bigger variation in each component score.

OK, here are my scores and thoughts for these programs:

Cousins SS 5.0 CH 6.0
Fine speed in the crossovers to set up jumps at the beginning, most of the interesting skating later was done quite slowly, and even the crossovers by the end were labored; never maked it look effortless. Good use of both directions, including a serpentine step sequence, though not difficult turns, and too much two-foot skating and posing in place. I did like that there was a theme to the program that was carried throughout in his general body carriage and the phrasing of the movement phrases. The kneeling exit of one of the spins struck me as the most original moment in the program.

Guo SS 5.25 CH 4.5
He had some nice fairly effortless speed/power/acceleration in the first half of the program, but it really fell off in the second half. Not much clockwise skating and not much one-foot. There was some decent phrasing to the music with appropriate and occasionally original use of simple steps and arm movements, but I didn’t understand how the different sections related to each other. Spins and steps were relatively weak compared to the jumps, which were often telegraphed.

Tyllesen SS 4.75 CH 6.5
Not a lot of speed/power, and there was a lot of reliance on two-foot glides. Just occasional clockwise turns or edges. On the other hand, I thought the phrasing of the movement to the music was quite strong throughout. The motif of the artist stepping in to his picture at the beginning was recalled with the painting gestures toward the end (while executing some non-negligible edge work, for a change), with otherwise heroic and reaching type movements, using his whole body reaching into space more than most. And I liked the originality in the upright spin that went from layback to knee hugging.

Langdon SS 6.0 CH 7.0
His skating didn’t come across as powerful -- I didn’t love his crossover technique -- but he did manage to keep up the speed throughout and he did seem fairly light across the ice; I got the impression his blades would be quite quiet. He did use both directions although more often clockwise as a clockwise jumper. There was a clear commitment to the musical styles and phrasing, three different selections that were distinguished in how he moved to each and also related to each other thematically. Spins were stronger technically than the jumps that day. Nice originality in the varied use of spread eagles (though deeper edges would also have been welcome).

Pliuta SS 5.75 CH 4.25
Some excellent speed and security to his skating at the beginning especially, but he did rely on a lot of two-foot skating/gliding and not much work with edges, turns, multidirectional skating. I got the impression that he was capable of showing strong skating skills but this program didn’t ask him to. Patterns were very basic. Mostly solid jumps and spins with a few mistakes, but it was all about the elements and a very generic sense of portraying a warrior through arm movements and mostly appropriate phrasing.

Vidrai SS 5.25 CH 4.75
Moderate power -- didn’t look effortless. There was one step sequence that didn’t fill the length of the ice but did include a lengthy series of turns (in both directions) and edge changes on one foot. Not much depth of edge. There was a clear theme/purpose to the program with good originality but mostly using arm movements to convey the theme, just adequate phrasing to music -- patterns and use of the body in space were disappointing.

Some disagreement between my scores and fallingsk8er’s. Anyone else want to chime in?

Hey gkelly, I will try to review the performances over the weekend but I admit I am hesitant about this exercise because ... I am not sure what good use can come out of it other than reveal how our subjectivity differs in choreography and performance (which is what I presume you are going after?). However, how judges mark things everyday (what they are capable of) vs how they are 'likely' to mark things under pressure (under influence, peer pressure), or how they navigate around the grey area either conscious or unconscious of when the stake are the highest (their responsibility and interest as a federation member) are more than 50 shades of grey when marking performances not in contention for the biggest prize. This exercise lacks the context of competitions such as environmental factors, federation and rivalry pressures.

I think fundamentally why we can't agree about PCS, is that you fundamentally believe and trust every judges are genuinely good and decent to follow the rules with acceptable subjectivity and human error. That is all fantastic and good, and I REALLY wish all skating judge are like you, that tries to be fair for the good of the sport. Where as, my experiencing from observing the sport over the years, plus my own edification on human sciences has taught me is human beings by nature are social animals and does not judge in isolation like we do here, therefore need to be monitored and supervised, especially at the highest level. Even if 98% of ISU judges judge have good integrity and responsible to apply judgement fairly with total impartiality, it is the 2% that can cause the greatest havoc that can use things like subjectivity and anonymity to get away with Oopsies, comfortable in the knowledge the average mean can cancel out their own biases out and the rules protects them since nobody can be held accountable for any slants.

Perhaps the complexity of the sport make it impossible to have the same set of rules and guidelines to apply at all levels of competition, from novice to senior, from b level to world championships. That is an incredible ambitious and unrealistic expectation to assume a system can cope with the risk and rewards at all levels. The thing is if the sport insisting on only human judgement is capable to judge performances correctly, they also need to recognize the limitation of human conditions include flaws and vulnerabilities. The worse thing is to assume all human judges are going to behave like automatons and obey all the rules and guidelines as they are told and treat these numbers with absolute equal measures.

Just because we all passed our driving tests, that does not mean we can not 'choose' to drive recklessly when temptation is so strong and we know we can get away with it.

Yes, I'm more interested in focusing on how the process is supposed to work than focusing on the ways in which it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. That's just where my interests lie, and I hope others at Golden Skate are also interested.

I especially enjoy the thought processes/challenge of trying to apply the criteria to specific performances. I hope to share that fun with others who might notice different aspects of the performances that I missed.

But even if we do want to focus a discussion on how real-life practice falls short of the ideal, I don't think it's possible to have that discussion in a meaningful way without first developing an in-depth understanding of the ideal. So I hope we can explore that together.

The differences between gkelly's and fallingsk8er's scores is already fascinating.

Hoping to take the time to watch and score these tonight or during the weekend.

Bahaha. My scores are...I must've been in a good mood yesterday morning. I'm kind of reluctant to post now. I want to re-evaluate but I feel like that's "cheating." Lol

Eh, post them as is or look them over and make adjustments as you feel necessary before posting.

Remember, these performances finished in the 6-10 range at Olympics and Worlds that year. They weren't in medal contention, but they were only a step or two behind -- above average by the standards of the time.

So how do we evaluate them by the standards of 2015? That might be an interesting area for discussion.

Here are my scores and notes. I watched them in order you listed.

I decide to start Cousins at 7, since I thought he looks above average but consider there's 5 other people to measure, I should leave enough room in case they all ends up better than him. I am obviously unfamiliar with them all and their music choices.

Skating Skills

Cousins 7
Power, steadiness, but not enough finesse and variation, seems a bit taunt, movement held together by power and strength rather than have a relaxed natural ease I tends to look for like in someone like a Patrick Chan. However these are assured classic lines, good control of movements, edges, very skillful although not terribly exciting to watch. He is what I call a nice safe pair of blades, likely because he is the most seasoned skater out of the lot.


Guo 4.5 + 3 = 7.5
3 points bonus for the 2 quads historical achievement, WOW! If he had not able to land these 2 quads, may be 4.5 since his basics is below average. Amazing jumper... steady as a rock. Many crossovers, 2 foot skating, not particular fast or have good ice coverage. All about setting up the jumps. Not much variation of change of edges, multi directional skating. Seems slow in the 2nd half likely due to stamina issues due to quads factor. Still very impressive.


Tyllensen 4.5
Lots of cross overs again, 2 foot skating, overall seems alot of effort moving about the ice, less at ease or steady than Cousin, even seems frazzled in parts particularly the flailing arms balancing act too obviously. Distracting. As this prevent true body freedom able to be expressed and execute choreography fully. Has potential for elegance but it is just not there.


Langdon 6
Move on the ice well, better flow than previous 2. Good variation of edges showcasing, better speed and less effort than even Cousins but there seems alot of start stop parts. Falls is distracting. While cousins have power and strength and control, Langdon has finesse and may be a little music sensitivity, and I like how he kept his speed up despite an up beat finish in the 3rd part of his program which is more demanding that others.


Piliuta 5
Other than the excellent speed and good flow out of big jumps and move around the rink in the beginning, there is long set up and telegraphing and not particularly sophisticated like jump session. Not the most powerful or confident skater, some parts even feel a bit juniorish (btw, was watching his FS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmzEl4DsXbI, he remind me of King Joffrey from Games of Thrones )


Vidrai 4.75
Artistically must have been a great pinup for the current Russian Men. Jock on ice, and unapologetic about it. It is power and strength over sensibility and finesse. Not even pretending he want to try to be artistic. Two much posing randomness, 2 foot skating, jump setting/pumping, not as fast, fluid or cover good coverage as others. Movement seems at great effort and little flow.


Choreography / Peformance

Cousins 6.5 / 6.5
Seems the most seasoned and self assured this group. Comfortable with the program mood expressing along a narrorw range choreographic expressions. Nothing grand about Gone with the wind, but was still able to sell the epic quality of the music through his powerful steady, well controlled understated skating. Perfectly nice, pleasant enough program. Not terribly exciting. Limited reading of the music intention but but there is a gentleman like skating quality about this program that I really liked. It doesn't try too hard which I appreciate.


Guo 5 / 5.25
5 for average. This is all about the jumps baby! No attempt to show variation in emotion or interpretation. Fantastic Communist mechanist program Hilarious Thomas the tank engine choreography hands. Not much rhythmic movement reacting to the music pumping. Instead he is like some super soldier grabbing the glory of the historical 2 quads trophy. If this program is about train station and rail tracks, urban rhythms, then it deserve sky high marks, but as it is... this program doesn't event attempt to entice the judge's western sensibilities. I can however imagine these massive jumps = boom monopoly style! Boom -> here comes down a sky scrapers, Boom -> big monuments. Boom -> upgrade 5 star hotel etc.. It may be argued too much time has been spent on the jump setups but then I think the 2 quads is worth it. You can't expect to have everything. Running out of steam a bit in the 2nd half affected his choreography, he was a little behind in parts. But at least I was wowed by this routine (call it that rather than choreography) in pursuit of the 2 quad dreams.


Tyllensen 4.75 / 4.5
I don't get this program, what is he trying to express, The music seems to be describing some sort of European court muskerteering/adventure? Although there seems some attempt to relate to the music, I feel the program lack in structure some random jumps one after another, it doesn't go anywhere. It might as well have been an improvisation. Watching this performance is bit like watching an elevator ad. You kind of go ok... some sort of European musak ... NEXT! Completely forgettable. Lazy use of elbows and upper body arm movement. Looks like he is still learning to skate with his arm balancing act, awkwardness doesn't complement the choreography or the music selection.


Langdon 5.5 / 5.5
Yikes, this is Jason Brown fav SP's elder distant cousin. Not a fan of juke I must say, especially if it completely miss out conveying the joy, spontaneity and rhythmic qualities so essential to the juke. Just because you are able to pick a fun piece of music, it doesn't not make up for lack of emotion in your skating performance and choreography. He could have skated to anything in the first half. Luckly the music picks up and changed half way where he did better during the the bluey Jazzy slow section where he was able to play with the choreography phrasing a bit more. Much better 2nd half, some interesting highlights like holding an edge on the straight spread eagle. The program improved as it went on. The program is more thoughtfully structured showing better variation of movement, music moods vs other programs. Although I'd argue the program would have been better if he can build up the momentum to a bang, he does need more stamina and power to carry that off and bit of a personality to shine through. Seems too much of a nice catholic boy presence to carry this sort of program off but it is worth a try. The program as a whole, the 2nd half saved it from an average program.


Piliuta 4.5 / 4.5
This aint no legendary Spartacus in the fairy tales. The skater clearly misses the power, strength, gravitas, bravado in his presentation. May be this is his young unsured little brother. Little choreography lead to his open combo, some attempts to play off the music change, but still very little change of expression other than limited range of body movement. Total devoid of emotion, looks like he tries not to fall most of the time. This might as well be a COP program, ticking element to element, need some personality to convey the character of Spartacus, courage, bravery, emotion. Pity his presentation went against the very character he tries to portray. Sadly no historical legendary figure in sight, just the water boy.


Vidrai 5.25 - 1 for bad taste = 4.25 / 5
Unusual start with the Harley davidson vroom vroom, even though he looked like some cowboy zorro wanna be without the masks or the swords. Then it goes through some Liza like music trance/pump/jumps clinics session and have not made any biker reference since. Luckily (or unluckily) half way, seems a change of pace and goes into some sort of Eurotechno change. Okay attempt at hydroblade but a bit under whelming by the size. Mid section is too slow and taking things too easy for my taste, it might as well be a resting point. However he does shows confidence to executing with the choreography with flair. Some weird mime choreography mid section straight from Morozov school of randomness. Then 80s techno kicks in again... what is this?! Chop suey of Eurotrashy Americana? At least it wasn't completely flavourless and devoid of personality. I guess this is what you see when you see Jocks trying to skate out their fantasy program and don't want to do all that 'lovey dovey artistic stuff'. Elvis Stojko would approve if it has a quad.

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Ranking for Skating Skills | Choreography | Performance

Cousins: 2 | 1 | 1
Guo: : 1 | 3 | 3
Tyllensen: 6 | 4 | 4
Langdon: 3 | 2 | 2
Piliuta: 4 | 5 | 6
Vidrai: 5 | 6 | 5

Going through this process is useful as I found myself adjusting the score a bit even though started with Cousins at 7, just to show judges should have been given 2nd chance to revise their score as it is hard to get it right first time, but for some reason they chose not to.

(Edited to include marks for performance)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the programs, os168.

There's no need to factor your scores by 6.0. We're judging these programs by IJS rules, as if they were being skated today. The way the numbers were used with "6.0 judging" under the ordinal system before 2004 was completely different -- they can't be converted from one system to another just by factoring.

We'll just use your original scores out of 10.

gkelly said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the programs, os168.

There's no need to factor your scores by 6.0. We're judging these programs by IJS rules, as if they were being skated today. The way the numbers were used with "6.0 judging" under the ordinal system before 2004 was completely different -- they can't be converted from one system to another just by factoring.

We'll just use your original scores out of 10.

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Oh... sorry i misunderstood the task. Actually reading back, I can't help but combining PE with the score for choreography! Oh deary me! No wonder the judges do it too!!

Need more training...

I am frankly OK as a spectator to watch programs without much choreo as long as technicality can make up for it. It is more annoying and bothersome to watch skaters pretending to convey something without a full grasp of it.

I have watched figure skating since 2002 and I believe that it is not that easy to rate "old" performances with today´s systems. To me skating has changed a lot over the years. Today I see more transistions, more deeper edges, more creative ideas...

QuadThrow said:

To me skating has changed a lot over the years. Today I see more transistions, more deeper edges, more creative ideas...

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I agree, on average.

The best skaters over the many decades of the old system were able to use plenty of transitions, deep edges, and/or creative ideas along with at least standard jump content for their era. And the best spinners had some memorable spins.

And TV coverage was limited, so often we only got to see the best skaters and watched them over and over again.

So people who remember those best skaters of the past often feel that the average level of IJS performance, choreography, creativity, etc., does not live up to the best of the past.

I think I managed to track down enough videos from different sources from the 80s and 90s and attend enough large or lower-level competitions in the 90s to get a better sense of the field as a whole than just the most memorable ones. In general I think the field is deeper now in terms of overall quality. Transitions for sure.

Creativity could go either way. Under 6.0, even lower-level skaters would sometimes include subtle original choices in an arm position here, a spin variation position there, a sequence of steps or jumps, that worked for a particular program concept or a particular skater's strengths, but that would not be worth doing under IJS.

Many skills that used to be rare or unheard of, and that do earn higher levels on spins and steps or count as transitions or variations on jumps that can garner higher GOEs or higher component scores, have become commonplace, so it doesn't take much originality for a skater to include something now that was considered original 20 years ago.

And skills that don't earn extra points under IJS but that do add to the athletic difficulty of the program/add some physical risk perhaps along with creativity/artistry have largely disappeared as skaters focus on what they know they'll be rewarded for if they execute well rather than just hoping some judges would like it enough to bump up their scores.

Edge quality may have been strongest in the school figures era, so skaters who reached senior level in the last decade or so of the 6.0 era, after figures were eliminated, may have been weakest in those areas. And the IJS step sequence level requirements and Skating Skills and Transitions requirements have forced IJS-era skaters to develop skills that skaters 10-20 years ago could do without.

Ironically with the IJS requirements you would think creativity is minimized, and in many ways it is. But I think more than that it's actually forced skaters to diversify their choreography. In the 90's and prior, you would get the vast majority of the field stroking around doing a jump fest. There would be highlights here and there, but the actual choreography wasn't particularly challenging. Technical elements aside, I'm pretty sure most skaters today could easily do the choreography of programs of yesteryear, but definitely not vice versa.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Ironically with the IJS requirements you would think creativity is minimized, and in many ways it is. But I think more than that it's actually forced skaters to diversify their choreography. In the 90's and prior, you would get the vast majority of the field stroking around doing a jump fest. There would be highlights here and there, but the actual choreography wasn't particularly challenging. Technical elements aside, I'm pretty sure most skaters today could easily do the choreography of programs of yesteryear, but definitely not vice versa.

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Agree