Why Do Some Skaters Prefer Lutz to Toe Loop?
- Thread starter 4everchan
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Country
-
Adam has always loved the Lutz jumps, doing them with both arms over his head. For him, they are easy. And a properly done lutz really explodes off the ice,really flying.
Not everyone finds the toe loop the easiest jump.
Not everyone finds the toe loop the easiest jump.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
- Country
-
i understand that doris and thank you for your answer.. i guess that some skaters just feel at home with specific jumps… .. and since michael weiss was sort of the same trying the 4lz, and since i am not a skater, i am wondering what makes it easier technically for someone like adam, to attempt a 4Lz vs a 4T… for instance, as far as I know only Dice M is attempting a 4 F…. what are the jumps particularities at the quad level that could explain why some skaters can do specific quads but not other ones… like some will only do a 4S but no 4 toe pick quads (Nam) … but then some will try 4 Lz but not own other "simpler as far as we know quads"… in any case… i hope i expressed myself better this time… i am just curious about this…maybe i should have posted my question in another thread HEHE
I think a part of the explanation lies in the feeling of the jump. The feeling of the timing, of the technique... I really don't know how to say it but for example, I'm much more comfortable with the flip than the toe-loop and I feel like it's because my body understands the mechanism better. It's probably related to muscle memory or something like that... I knew a skater who said that if I had to go into a quad, he will do quad lutz because it's the more natural jump he can do... But I will be glad to read some other pieces of explanation if somebody have !
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
- Country
-
yeah… i understand.. let's see if we can hear more about this….. thanks for sharing your own experience
Some skaters just have an affinity with certain jumps. Like a safety blanket that also ends up being their calling cards. Sometimes it's also easiest for them and therefore they can maximise that jump for what its worth, and to be honest, if you're a skater and you know that a hard jump comes to you easily, you'd make sure to keep that as a trump card.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
- Country
-
ok.. so everyone mentions "affinity" or "feeling" i am curious more about physiological or mechanical explanations... I sort of can relate to the affinity part and of course what it brings in terms of confidence to a skater which leads to developing further a jump than others, turning it into a quad... and not working on the easier quads... for instance, I'd understand it better if let's say Adam were landing 4T already.... and I get why some people are at ease better with edge jumps rather than toe pick jumps.. or why a skater like Lambiel could do 4T but not 3A... but yeah if anyone has explanations that go into the mechanics/physiology of the jumps/athletes, I'd be curious to hear them
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think that to some extent the ISU has had to to address this question when it decides that one jump deserves a higher bas value than another. Which is easier, a toe loop or a Salchow. Well, the toe loop has the advantage of a toe assist, so if you can time it properly you get an automatic extra boost.
But if the timing is off by a split second between the toe picking in and the rest of the body launching into the air, then, for you, the Salchow is easier.
A Lutz? I think that's just harder period. That's why no one ever lands one. I don't know why Rippon continues to torture himself, or Michael Weiss, with this albatross. (It's not like they are Brandon Mroz or somebody.
)
But if the timing is off by a split second between the toe picking in and the rest of the body launching into the air, then, for you, the Salchow is easier.
A Lutz? I think that's just harder period. That's why no one ever lands one. I don't know why Rippon continues to torture himself, or Michael Weiss, with this albatross. (It's not like they are Brandon Mroz or somebody.
)
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
- Country
-
I think that to some extent the ISU has had to to address this question when it decides that one jump deserves a higher bas value than another. Which is easier, a toe loop or a Salchow. Well, the toe loop has the advantage of a toe assist, so if you can time it properly you get an automatic extra boost.
But if the timing is off by a split second between the toe picking in and the rest of the body launching into the air, then, for you, the Salchow is easier.
A Lutz? I think that's just harder period. That's why no one ever lands one. I don't know why Rippon continues to torture himself, or Michael Weiss, with this albatross. (It's not like they are Brandon Mroz or somebody.
yeah i understand that when comparing a toe or an edge jump.... but with toe loop and lutz, i find it weird... mroz and boyang have their 4T.... so it's less surprising that they went/go for the 4Lz... in any case... it's like a lady would not own a 3T but would have 3Lz.. maybe there's more candidates like that? and perhaps more answers?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
There is also the possibility that, if you can't do either a 4T or a 4Lz, anyway falling and under-rotaing the Lutz gives you more points. Plus, if you do land the Lutz, that would be so cool that you might make the podium, whereas if you land the 4T, ho hum, you are just in the mix with everyone else. (?)
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
I have always wondered what makes a certain jump easier or harder for certain skaters. When I skated ( Maybe it's because I danced first ) I could always nail Loops and Salchow's. I was also blessed with flexibility from ballet so I had strong "Falling Leafs."
I hated picking and not being able to see where I was going to land and after crashing into a wall during a warm up. My parents pulled from me skating and that was it.
When I watch diving on TV, I always wonder if a diver would rather face forward so they could see the water before the dive VS away from the water so they could think about the dive without the water in view. If ever there was a sport that I'd need a shrink for. It would be diving. No thank you.
I hated picking and not being able to see where I was going to land and after crashing into a wall during a warm up. My parents pulled from me skating and that was it.
When I watch diving on TV, I always wonder if a diver would rather face forward so they could see the water before the dive VS away from the water so they could think about the dive without the water in view. If ever there was a sport that I'd need a shrink for. It would be diving. No thank you.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
- Country
-
i guess that's a very valid point....
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
- Country
-
diving is indeed scary... but for me the scariest would be the vault in gymnastics....run as fast as possible and crash.....ewww
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Country
-
Well, I suppose it's like why do some skaters prefer Salchow to toe loop? It's a personal preference thing. Some skaters find it easier to do than others. Max Aaron can nail quad Salchows all day long but had trouble with the quad toe loop when he tried to put it in.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
- Country
-
i think it's easier, at least for me, to understand how physically and mechanically skaters can prefer an edge jump over a toe jump... 4S and 4T are pretty much "considered" the same difficulty accordingly to the judging system....but when comparing two toe jumps, it seems odd to me at least, that a skater who cannot land a 4T, goes for a 4Lz... especially since the lutz is considered much harder...
Any of you skaters have learned 2Lz before 2T? or 3Lz before 3T?
Any of you skaters have learned 2Lz before 2T? or 3Lz before 3T?
From my experience, though I'm not a high level skater, some jump entrances just feel uncomfortable. For example, I find the toe loop entry uncomfortable because I have to hold an outside edge with arms twisted one way and free leg twisted the other - not my cup of tea. But flip and salchow is more comfortable because arms and free leg are aligned, no twisting. (I like to say I have all my single jumps except the toe loop.)
I can only guess that other skaters have different things they feel comfortable or uncomfortable with on a jump entry, for example the timing of picking or comfort on edge jumps. I leave others to add on to this.
I can only guess that other skaters have different things they feel comfortable or uncomfortable with on a jump entry, for example the timing of picking or comfort on edge jumps. I leave others to add on to this.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Country
-
I'm glad you can understand it, because my coach has gone over it with me more times than I care to think about and I still don't get it. My Salchow is passable, but not great, and I have a lot of trouble with it. My toe jumps, on the other hand, are all much better.
In Adam's case, I believe it's simply that the 3Lz is his best triple, so it seemed natural to turn that into a quad when he struggled with the other types. I was - and still am - very much vouching for Jason to try the 4F, simply because his 3F is so huge.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
Did Adam take Ballet before he skated? I ask because even though I hated toe jumps, I was definitely more comfortable doing a Lutz. My coach said it was probably because I had developed "Turn Out" from Ballet Class. Flips on the other hand felt very awkward because it feels like a "Cycle" meaning you're turned in and on an inside edge which is the opposite of Ballet.
Last edited:
Similar threads
