Christine Brennan previews World Ladies

Hi everyone, I'm pretty new here and have browsed a lot but not posted very much. I am not sure if these kinds of topics are really encourged but I just felt compelled to say something about the Skating Lesson's recent preview of the Ladies event in Boston. Now I really like the Skating Lesson usually(though I know not all do) but I have some concerns. I always think a bit of fun and snarkiness is welcome in any "fandoms" or reviews whether it be sports, tv, literature, which is why I appreciate TSL usually. I know maybe sometimes they might say something others don't like, but I haven't had that reaction myself. I might not always agree, but that's fine.

However, today along with Christine Brennen whom I've never heard of until now, the review was really rather off putting to me. It was basically said that meldonium is big factor in the 'in today, gone tomorrow' culture of Russian ladies skating. Where is the evidence of this at all? We only know of Tuktamysheva and we have no idea how long she took it(do we)? How does meldonium explain Sotnikova or Lipnitskaya(who I am not prepared to write off yet anyway) being at the top and then not being? Their rise and falls were all when the drug was legal? Can I also just say it isn't exactly unusual in other sports for an Olympic Gold medalist to never get back to the top because the reward was so great the motivation waned. This happens in gymnastics all the time, and right now Gabby Douglas who won the 2012 Olympics is the exception to that rule in American gymnastics. For she is looking like basically a lock for Rio right now. Maybe this isn't as common in skating(I'm much newer to skating than gymnastics) but I would think this is a more typical explanation for such a thing happening.


Then it went on to criticizing the Russian system as a whole. Saying the treatment of their skaters wouldn't be tolerated in countries like Canada, USA, Japan ect. Yes, most likely the culture is harsher there with the amount of talent - but why is it "cruel" now? A Japanese skater who gets overtaken by up and comers isn't going to make teams either? I get that it's not quite the in and out within a year type of thing but isn't that how sports are in general!?

I think it's really biased not to consider the fact most Russian skater's are not coming from privileged backgrounds. Whereas that isn't really the case for their western counterparts? It's a different system and in Russia these skaters wouldn't get the chance if the system was like that of Japan or Canada. None of it is all fair, but I feel really uncomfortable with the western superiority here. I wonder how many kids from the poorest of western families would like to have such an opportunity if it were possible? There was a statistic about UK medal winners in the 2012 olympics. 50% percent of medal winners were from private schools. Now only something like 7 percent of students in the UK attend private schools. Does that display an advantage some have in the Western world? I realize this is a pretty off topic issue but what would they like to see from the Russian system? Do you think uber rich Russian's are going to bother to put their kids in elite sports? Why bother when they can send their kids to top boarding schools in the UK or Switzerland? Yes, Western culture is different in that it really tends to be wealthier kids in certain sports. Compare American gymnastics to Chinese gymnastics.

I am sorry for this sort of rant. I was just so disappointed to click on what I thought was going to be a fun review of the Ladies Event and instead it was something that I found unpleasant.

I will continue to watch TSL because apart from THIS I haven no issue. I don't think they meant to offend anyone and it wasn't even really them who brought up these points anyway, doesn't mean they don't endorse it though. I understand where they are coming from and anyone who feels that way but it does seem unbalanced and unfair to me. I just wanted to know if anyone agreed.

Hi GoddessMinerva, as a huge fan and supporter of TSL I was disappointed with the tone of the interview as well. I was also uncomfortable with the Western culture view of the Russian figure skating program. I was feeling kind of icky about this interview but couldn't figure out why until I read your post. Thank you for putting it into words.

I think you missed the point. They talked about meldonium briefly, but the point with Russian skaters coming out of a conveyer belt wasn't anything to do with meldonium. However I do agree with them that whatever athlete who takes 'performance enhancing' substances, legal or otherwise should be banned. If everyone can take a pill, what use is a coach, training, practice sessions or parents? "in today, out tomorrow"- I suppose a great example would be Tuktamysheva and how she ever managed her winning season without breaking down. She didn't exactly help herself by saying she has taken meldonium, and we all know how her season has turned out after her WC title. Again, there's no solid proof that she was doping, but then nobody really believed Lance Armstrong was until it came out that he has been doping for a very long time.

Christine was critical of the way the Russian system seem to have a backload of young skaters that are being put forward in succession after the prior fades away or makes an error. The whole thing with Lipnitskaia and Sotnikova was a very glaring example- and one that people may find unsavoury, yet sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow. Even Arutunian spoke about the system and how these girls aren't even fully developed when they are thrust upon the senior ranks, and before you know it, there's a newer, younger up and comer waiting in the wings. Personally, when you hear and read quotes of Russian choreographers saying Julia has gone downhill because she has a predisposed weight gain issue from her mother just evokes a rather horrible, bullying environment brimming with young girls who haven't even kickstarted their lives. You wouldn't get that anywhere else. Why its acceptable in Russia is beyond me.

I don't believe that there is a western superiority with this sport, or at least not to the extent that you portray. Not all athletes are from privileged backgrounds, although admittedly FS is a lucrative sport. Ashley Wagner and Mirai Nagasu aren't exactly being fed from silver spoons. They worked to support themselves, and now that they are where they are, doing shows are obviously more beneficial than working at Urban Outfitters. I think what you may be uncomfortable with is the fact that the US, Canadian, Japanese federations have a much better structured system compared to Russia's, and that you believe there might be some truth to it.

I can understand your rant, but imo there wasn't anything in that interview that hasn't been discussed before. I think having it come from a very candid journalist just made it sound a lot more revealing.

Well, there is no proof that every single figure skater was taking meldonium prior to this year. Liza said she took it before it was banned. Others said they never used it at all, or only sporadically. So far only one of the known doping cases involves a figure skater, so I wonder why they keep harping on it. I'm sure it's not out of any genuine concern for the skaters' health.

And what does Brennan think they are doing to the skaters exactly? There is plenty to criticize about the Russian fed, but for the skaters who do well, there are many upsides to their system as well. Does she think they were supposed to prop up Yulia and give her inflated scores when she isn't skating as well, because I'm pretty sure she would have a problem with that too. This is a competitive sport and nobody has been "thrown away" or denied the opportunity to keep skating. Yulia is still getting sent to competitions and could stay in the sport for many more years - nobody knows at this point. Same for Adelina. Why should they quit because of one or two bad seasons? In Russia, you skate and compete well, you stay on the team. If Alena Leonova can still get GPs, then there is no reason think the other girls won't have any staying power. Even with all the talented up and comers, someone will always be dealing with injuries, puberty, etc. and have up and down seasons. This is true for every skater, but they simply have more competition. That's life.

And I just can't believe the audacity they had to suggest that only Russian or "Russian friendly" judges like Ukraine(?!!) are giving high marks to their skaters, and no other countries ever do anything like that. Apparently home cooking is strictly a Russian thing too and the US skaters will not be scored generously in Boston...are you kidding me?

tinlizzie said:

Hi GoddessMinerva, as a huge fan and supporter of TSL I was disappointed with the tone of the interview as well. I was also uncomfortable with the Western culture view of the Russian figure skating program. I was feeling kind of icky about this interview but couldn't figure out why until I read your post. Thank you for putting it into words.

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Thank you, sorry it had to be long - I was never very good at being efficient with word count. The Western perception of a non Western sports regime having a negative bent isn't unusual in any sport I don't think. Even when it is not meant to be an insult in any way to the athletes. It's just so easy for those in their position to not realize they cannot be equated for so many reasons.

TheCzar: But I feel like a lot of that is a different thing altogether. Non post puberty athletes not making it the long haul is totally different issue to the Meldonium. Also, when did I ever say drugs like meldonium shouldn't be banned?


I also know about Ashely Wagnar and her job a Urban Outfitters. I never said there weren't exceptions to the rule and I NEVER said they don't work as hard, I see no reason to be defensive on this issue. However I don't know much about Ashley and I'm assuming she didn't get to the top all on her own, nobody does. I don't believe other systems are better but there is unfairness in every system, everywhere.


I get the feeling you think I am some anti Western, pro Russian apologist and I am not. I was just making a point.

TheCzar said:

I I think what you may be uncomfortable with is the fact that the US, Canadian, Japanese federations have a much better structured system compared to Russia's, and that you believe there might be some truth to it.

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And what is so much better about the structure of those federations...especially the US, because it doesn't seem that great to me (as an American).

GoddessMinerva said:

Thank you, sorry it had to be long - I was never very good at being efficient with word count. The Western perception of a non Western sports regime having a negative bent isn't unusual in any sport I don't think. Even when it is not meant to be an insult in any way to the athletes. It's just so easy for those in their position to not realize they cannot be equated for so many reasons.

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I would like to add a +1 to your post, with a note that TSL is not always russian friendly and may be not focusing on international watchers.

As a side note about conveyer belt and throwing away skaters. Nobody throws them away. But well, if you have 6 top skaters and only 3 spots, 3 skaters will just have to stay home. There is no possible way to accomodate everybody unless russia is given more spots, which is not going to happen. And then people call it harsh and say skaters like Lip were thrown away - she were not, the fed just cannot send her ahead of other athletes who skated better (and if they did, those same people would be the first ones to rant about federation´s darlings and blablabla). Not everybody understands it because no other country has such depth right now - lets say USA, Gracie and Ashley pretty much got their spots granted, no matter what - if they were russians, they would easily stay out of worlds team, lets say, because there are more consistent skaters.

I also would like to say YES, I know SOME of the issues are discussed on here and rightly so - it's a discussion forum! Part of the fact I was annoyed was because to be frank I thought TSL just went too far - they are supposed to be a FUN channel. This is another point altogether, but discussing something that is maybe better suited to journalism and discussion forums can be off putting IMO. It isn't why I subscribed to them. So maybe that's where extra level of annoyance came from, just the fact I didn't expect it. Sorry if I annoyed anyone, maybe I should have found another thread to post in. It's too bad there doesn't seem to be a general TSL lesson thread.

I started to listen and was put off by all the bashing by Mrs. Brennan. This preview turned into bashing all the Russian sports athletes and the Federations and the system was just much for me. Ugh.
Russians used meldonium. I wonder what drug most of Americans use instead? I mean- there should be a drug that is inoffensive and just helps to recover from physical stress- which is that? How about banning it too and then see the consequences? Sure those who got caught were careless but that fact has yet to be proven.
There was just too much of hatred between the lines, I just couldn't stand it.
I don't care which country are my personal favorites from, I don't care about their religion or colour, I just love this sport and I hate when someone who is regarded as one of the most influential (or well-known person) affiliated with this sport starts to bash the entire country for a few athletes doping cases. What is that? It just angers me.
And then she also mentions Russian soldiers in Afganistan who sorta took Meldonium and all turns even uglier from there on connecting war and politics to the sport, what the hell was that? Reviving cold war again? Then she goes on bashing Sharapova. Come on! Think before you speak!

TheCzar said:

Personally, when you hear and read quotes of Russian choreographers saying Julia has gone downhill because she has a predisposed weight gain issue from her mother just evokes a rather horrible, bullying environment brimming with young girls who haven't even kickstarted their lives. You wouldn't get that anywhere else. Why its acceptable in Russia is beyond me.

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Really??!!! I am not sure, It is like a private and public school. If you are paying they can and need tolerate you. I don´t say that is correct but it is the nature of the humans, everywhere not just Russia, the difference is they don´t hide it.

chapis said:

Really??!!! I am not sure, It is like a private and public school. If you are paying they can and need tolerate you. I don´t say that is correct but it is the nature of the humans, everywhere not just Russia, the difference is they don´t hide it.

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Besides, doesn't that kind of talk go on in gymnastics in the US? I don't follow that sport closely, but I've read & heard enough to know that it does. Nobody here cares enough about skating to have much press & media devoted to it, unfortunately.

This is what they do. Is anyone really surprised anymore whenever they go off on ranting aimed at a teenage level of discussion. Not me. Getting rather boring to be honest but it's always fun when they show off for us just how mean our sport has the potential to become.

silverfoxes

Sorry can I ask you an off topic Q: I know who are sonograms but who are silver foxes?

Sorrento said:

I started to listen and was put off by all the bashing by Mrs. Brennan. This preview turned into bashing all the Russian sports athletes and the Federations and the system was just much for me. Ugh.
Russians used meldonium. I wonder what drug most of Americans use instead? I mean- there should be a drug that is inoffensive and just helps to recover from physical stress- which is that? How about banning it too and then see the consequences? Sure those who got caught were careless but that fact has yet to be proven.
There was just too much of hatred between the lines, I just couldn't stand it.
I don't care which country are my personal favorites from, I don't care about their religion or colour, I just love this sport and I hate when someone who is regarded as one of the most influential (or well-known person) affiliated with this sport starts to bash the entire country for a few athletes doping cases. What is that? It just angers me.
And then she also mentions Russian soldiers in Afganistan who sorta took Meldonium and all turns even uglier from there on connecting war and politics to the sport, what the hell was that? Reviving cold war again? Then she goes on bashing Sharapova. Come on! Think before you speak!

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I have never been a fan of Brennan's and frankly, the fact that she still has a job is shocking to me. As I've said in the past, I'm positive that I was given what some people called "The Steroid Crème." It was basically like "Super Bengay" It went on cold and then heated up and stayed hot for what seemed like hours. Now, I never ran track but, I was a high level tennis player for quite a while and there is constant pressure to stay healthy as there are a TON of athlete's waiting to take your place.

We've all heard of Parents from hell and they exist everywhere. I'm sure my Father looked like one of those Parents on more than one occasion when I was young. I'm fine if they want to talk about Federations but, I think they should leave the Athlete's out of it. They are so focused on the task in front of them and they place all their trust in their team. If I were to place blame anywhere, I would start with her trainer. It's his or her job to ask the right questions and make sure the athlete's are clean from any substance before they ever reach the event.

Sorrento said:

silverfoxes

Sorry can I ask you an off topic Q: I know who are sonograms but who are silver foxes?

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Skaters of a certain age...say late 20s or early 30s, who are still going strong or who are late bloomers. Bonus points if they are attractive.

Honestly, I was expecting more of a LADIES PREVIEW from them but nope all I heard from them was about meldonium this and meldonium that.

They should've cut the first 10 minutes and had that as a stand-alone. What a turn off it is to hear something unrelated to the point of the video that rags on for 10 minutes and then hear about the Sochi-Russia-rules-everything-figure-skating-related debacle. IMO, they should've contacted someone else to do the ladies.

mrrice said:

If I were to place blame anywhere, I would start with her trainer. It's his or her job to ask the right questions and make sure the athlete's are clean from any substance before they ever reach the event.

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To me the issue with Bobrova for example was that she trusted not only her coach but also her doctor. From now on it's like all the athletes will have to be on guard all the time like they are spies on an enemy territory and sure some will be even more anxious (as if they don't have plenty of issues to worry about) about drugs they take. It is of their responsability- true. It is true that when you get supported by Federation and sponsors and you have (like Sharapova) a few people who take care of most issues for you you might loosen up and stop thinking about certain list of problems. The system itself let most of the athletes trust their teams and don't ask questions. The doping scandal will be a wake up call for many of them. But the problem is- who will suffer at the end? Not the system and system people unfortunately. Even though Putin said they should maintain proper control over doping in Russian sport it will take years to change the rigid system.

silverfoxes said:

Skaters of a certain age...say late 20s or early 30s, who are still going strong or who are late bloomers. Bonus points if they are attractive.

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Err... name a few?

Sorrento said:

Err... name a few?

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Plushy and Voronov