Off-ice practice of air position?

yuzushenko · Mar 25, 2016

hi i haven't been able to go to the rink in a while (several months) and i wanted to try learning the jumps off the ice. but i don't know how to practice the air position aspect of it. i don't know how to do any of the jumps on the ice btw. how do you practice the rotation and position of the legs? the slight cross, yet not a wrap.

also, how exactly do you rotate after going into the air? where does that momentum come from? i know you shouldn't prerotate but i feel like i may be doing that sometimes. ive practiced simply jumping straight up and then trying to rotate but i just can't seem to get that counter movement to actually rotate that way. yet if i jump off with my feet at an angle to jump into a rotation, it works. but i think from what ive heard that that you should first jump into the air and then rotate.

i always see slow motion jumps of elite skaters but sadly you can't slowly jump into position in real life to get that perfect air position...... any help?

karne · Mar 25, 2016

Please don't teach yourself these things...

gkelly · Mar 25, 2016

If you haven't learned any jumps on ice yet, there's not much you could do off ice to prepare. A lot of the process of getting into the air position comes from how you use the curve of the edges on the ice, which you can't replicate on the floor.

For single jumps, the air position is more open than for multirevolution jumps. The air positions for single salchow and toe loop (and waltz jump) are nothing like the crossed position used for jumps with more rotation including singles (loop, flip, lutz) that leave the ice landing foot last.

The first thing you need to do is get to the ice and learn the waltz jump and single salchow and toe loop.

Then you'll learn a backspin on the ice and learn the loop and flip jumps. When you get to that point, you could also try practicing the flip on the floor, or the backspin on a mechanical spinner.

That off-ice practice would not be much use in learning the first jumps you need to learn first. What you really need to learn is to be able to control takeoff and landing edges, which you can only practice on the ice.

SarahSynchro · Mar 25, 2016

When I was learning my doubles, I actually used to practice them on my backyard trampoline. Granted, by then I already knew the mechanics of all the single jumps, so I would mostly use the trampoline as a method to get used to doing the two rotations for a double instead of just one or less for a single.

However, I think I agree with gkelly, if you don't know the mechanics of how the basic single jumps work on the ice, there isn't a point in trying to do them off the ice first.

Good luck.

yuzushenko · Mar 26, 2016

SarahSynchro said:
When I was learning my doubles, I actually used to practice them on my backyard trampoline. Granted, by then I already knew the mechanics of all the single jumps, so I would mostly use the trampoline as a method to get used to doing the two rotations for a double instead of just one or less for a single.

However, I think I agree with gkelly, if you don't know the mechanics of how the basic single jumps work on the ice, there isn't a point in trying to do them off the ice first. Good luck.

yeah i def dont want to learn a bad technique or anything lol..it's addicting trying to learn though ;~;

do you think there'd be any benefit in at least attempting to learn how to rotate doubles or singles off the ice? not the jump itself, but just the general rotation?

gkelly · Mar 26, 2016

It can be useful to practice off-ice rotation for single flip/lutz and single axel before you're ready to try those jumps on the ice.

The first doubles you'd learn on ice are salchow (which really relies on using the takeoff edge and feels nothing like an off-ice jump) and toe loop (which could be practiced off ice but would likely involve bad technique -- "toe axeling").

Even if you learn off ice to rotate a single axel or for that matter a toe axel (bad double toe loop) or double flip on the floor, once you get on the ice you'll still be months if not years away from being ready to attempt those jumps on ice. You really need to be able to control edges in order to control your landings.

Imagine two skaters who want to learn double jumps.

Skater A can skate well with good edges on circles and half circles of different sizes, good control of all the three turns, and can do all the single jumps with good control, but has never tried to rotate twice in the air before, either on or off ice.

Skater B is a very beginning skater who can only skate on straight lines and shallow edges, or on two feet, but loses control of the upper body whenever they attempt to skate on a circle on one foot. But they can rotate twice in the air off ice.

A is ready to start trying doubles on ice.

B first needs to learn the skating skills that A already has, and how to do the easier single jumps. B attempting rotational jumps before they can control edges would lead to a lot of flailing and falling that would be dangerous not only for B but everyone else on the ice nearby.

The off ice practice won't get B ready to start attempting the harder singles and double jumps any sooner after starting to learn skating. When, after sufficient on-ice learning (as I say, it may be months or years depending how often they can take lessons and practice), B is ready to start those harder jumps on ice, only then will that off-ice rotational practice start to come in handy and maybe lesson the time from first attempt to first successful attempt at those jumps.

If you want to learn floor jumping because you think it would be fun to jump and rotate on the floor (or on a trampoline, or jumping off a diving board into a pool), go ahead have fun. And maybe take dance or gymnastics or diving lessons that include rotating.

Just don't expect it to translate into being able to attempt rotational jumps on ice any sooner once you start skating.

yuzushenko · Mar 26, 2016

gkelly said:
It can be useful to practice off-ice rotation for single flip/lutz and single axel before you're ready to try those jumps on the ice.

The first doubles you'd learn on ice are salchow (which really relies on using the takeoff edge and feels nothing like an off-ice jump) and toe loop (which could be practiced off ice but would likely involve bad technique -- "toe axeling").

Even if you learn off ice to rotate a single axel or for that matter a toe axel (bad double toe loop) or double flip on the floor, once you get on the ice you'll still be months if not years away from being ready to attempt those jumps on ice. You really need to be able to control edges in order to control your landings.

Imagine two skaters who want to learn double jumps.

Skater A can skate well with good edges on circles and half circles of different sizes, good control of all the three turns, and can do all the single jumps with good control, but has never tried to rotate twice in the air before, either on or off ice.

Skater B is a very beginning skater who can only skate on straight lines and shallow edges, or on two feet, but loses control of the upper body whenever they attempt to skate on a circle on one foot. But they can rotate twice in the air off ice.

A is ready to start trying doubles on ice.

B first needs to learn the skating skills that A already has, and how to do the easier single jumps. B attempting rotational jumps before they can control edges would lead to a lot of flailing and falling that would be dangerous not only for B but everyone else on the ice nearby.

The off ice practice won't get B ready to start attempting the harder singles and double jumps any sooner after starting to learn skating. When, after sufficient on-ice learning (as I say, it may be months or years depending how often they can take lessons and practice), B is ready to start those harder jumps on ice, only then will that off-ice rotational practice start to come in handy and maybe lesson the time from first attempt to first successful attempt at those jumps.

If you want to learn floor jumping because you think it would be fun to jump and rotate on the floor (or on a trampoline, or jumping off a diving board into a pool), go ahead have fun. And maybe take dance or gymnastics or diving lessons that include rotating.

Just don't expect it to translate into being able to attempt rotational jumps on ice any sooner once you start skating.

hmm i see. guess id actually need a coach to start learning singles on the ice then... i pretty much have the very basic skating skills covered.. lacking in turns though (i can do consecutive edges, crossovers, 3 turns, skating on curves and using edges. havent learned mohawks yet or perfectly mastered 3 turns to where they're always consistent). i was thinking of practicing these skating skills on my own on the ice, without a coach. do you think i need a coach for these skills, or should i just get one when i start singles? i used to take group adult lessons (i was actually just 18 at the time..wish i could have been in the actual real classes for regular students/not adults) but tbh they weren't that helpful cuz the format of the class was basically have a bunch of adult skaters in the rink, while 2 or 3 coaches go around approaching individual people within a 30 minute time period and they give tips to individuals for like 3 minutes before going on to the next person. sometimes a coach wouldn't even approach you for the entire lesson because they'd spend more time on other skaters ect. i really hated that format because i started getting less individual attention and it felt like a rip off to pay 75 bucks a month for 3 minutes per week of actual instruction. i honestly wish i had taken private lessons from the start cuz i realize it would have been cheaper and loads more helpful as well.. anyways.

i want to master those basic skills first but should i get a few private lessons for that? or just try to brute force my way into mastering them on my own and then get a coach for when i start to learn jumps/freestyle levels?

karne · Mar 26, 2016

Never, ever, ever, ever teach yourself. Not jumps, not three turns, not mohawks. Nothing can substitute for having a coach's hands and eyes on you and these "basic skills" that you seem to think you can teach yourself are actually vitally important for those jumps you think a coach will just start teaching you. No. When you get a coach, they are going to take you right back to establish what your true level is, the things you skipped, the things you thought you were doing well but are actually doing poorly...

gkelly · Mar 26, 2016

yuzushenko said:
hmm i see. guess id actually need a coach to start learning singles on the ice then... i pretty much have the very basic skating skills covered.. lacking in turns though (i can do consecutive edges, crossovers, 3 turns, skating on curves and using edges. havent learned mohawks yet or perfectly mastered 3 turns to where they're always consistent).

That's your next step, then. Get the three turns consistent. Especially the forward ones in your good direction, which you'll need as jump entrances. You need to be able to turn from forward outside to back inside and hold the back inside edge, or from forward inside to back outside and hold the back outside edge.

Once you have those skills, you can start learning salchows and toe loops.

i was thinking of practicing these skating skills on my own on the ice, without a coach. do you think i need a coach for these skills, or should i just get one when i start singles?

You'll master the skills a lot quicker and more correctly with a coach.

A lot of what you need to know about controlling the edges involves knowing which muscles to contract and which to relax when. That's not something you can figure out by watching other skaters because it happens internally. A good coach will give you the right information about how to practice.

If the group lessons don't work for you, then go with private lessons, even if it's just 15 minutes every other week. (And then practice a few times in between)

See if you can find a coach who is able to schedule lessons that meet your schedule and budget.

In the long run, you'll save money as well as time by working with a coach right from the beginning.

yuzushenko · Mar 27, 2016

karne said:
Never, ever, ever, ever teach yourself. Not jumps, not three turns, not mohawks. Nothing can substitute for having a coach's hands and eyes on you and these "basic skills" that you seem to think you can teach yourself are actually vitally important for those jumps you think a coach will just start teaching you. No. When you get a coach, they are going to take you right back to establish what your true level is, the things you skipped, the things you thought you were doing well but are actually doing poorly...

i dont think i can teach myself, i was already learning these skills with a coach in group lessons. but since they only gave us like 2 minutes of attention during 30 minute class, it wasn't of much help in the long run. i was learning 3 turns with a coach before i cancelled my group classes and practiced those all the time. the coach would often see me practice during public session and sometimes give me a few pointers as well outside of class. thanks for the concern though and i apologize for my attitude. im really picky about wanting to learn good technique, too, so i got a little upset that someone would accuse me of somehow being super sloppy about learning stuff. my coach said i should get private lessons once i started to learn jumps (back when i was in group lessons) so that's why i was a bit more lenient on "well maybe i should just try to get the 3 turns consistent on my own before going back to get private lessons" since i had been learning 3 turns in group classes for like 2 months. even though i practiced a lot, sometimes 6 hours a day, i still couldn't get them consistent. as gkelly said, learning from a coach is best cuz they'll tell you how it should feel more and stuff.

yuzushenko · Mar 27, 2016

gkelly said:
That's your next step, then. Get the three turns consistent. Especially the forward ones in your good direction, which you'll need as jump entrances. You need to be able to turn from forward outside to back inside and hold the back inside edge, or from forward inside to back outside and hold the back outside edge.

Once you have those skills, you can start learning salchows and toe loops.

You'll master the skills a lot quicker and more correctly with a coach.

A lot of what you need to know about controlling the edges involves knowing which muscles to contract and which to relax when. That's not something you can figure out by watching other skaters because it happens internally. A good coach will give you the right information about how to practice.

If the group lessons don't work for you, then go with private lessons, even if it's just 15 minutes every other week. (And then practice a few times in between)

See if you can find a coach who is able to schedule lessons that meet your schedule and budget.

In the long run, you'll save money as well as time by working with a coach right from the beginning.

thank you so much! this was really helpful. i think ill try to schedule a 15 minute class here and there eventually then once i find time to get back on the ice. i always thought that i should just practice the 3 turns and master em before going back to start lessons again to continue those basic skills (cuz the last 2 months i skated w/ group lessons, i was learning 3 turns so after i left i thought more practice even if i didn't have lessons anymore would help but perhaps a new perspective and more solid lesson time would be of more use. and i guess part of it was embarrassment that i hadn't been able to learn them in 2 months, so i felt like i should at least try to get them consistent on my own before returning to ask for lessons).

gkelly · Mar 27, 2016

yuzushenko said:
i guess part of it was embarrassment that i hadn't been able to learn them in 2 months, so i felt like i should at least try to get them consistent on my own before returning to ask for lessons).

No need to be embarrassed.

Everyone always has to work on three turns. Being able to do them at all is only the beginning. There are eight different three turns (although you only need two or three forward ones for beginning freestyle), different variations of timing and body position for different purposes, and always room for improvement. Even elite skaters may take lesson time to fine tune their three turns.

sillyant · Mar 29, 2016

I am sorry to hear that you had bad experience in your group lessons.

I am exactly at where you are now. I am able to do some passable outside 3 turns, inside mohawk and back and forward cross-overs. It took me 4 months to be able to do outside 3 turns on both sides (forget about inside 3 turns... am still struggling hard). I found that if you solely practice 3 turns for the whole session, it doesn't really get you anywhere because you need to have good edges before you can execute a good 3 turn. What I did is that I continuously practicing the edges in both backwards and forwards. Then suddenly I mastered the 3 turns one day.

I also did a lot of off-ice training. Let's face it, ice-skating is expensive! I regularly do push-ups and sit-ups to strengthen my core. I do youtube yoga (it's free!) to improve my flexibility. The hard work really pays off coz when the coach teaches a new trick, I already have the strength and flexibility to do it. All I need to do is to concentrate on improving the skill.

I hope these tips help!

P.S.
Don't be embarrassed by your own progress! Each person is different! My classmate can do a twizzle after one group lesson but she still struggle to do a proper crossover. On the other hand, my twizzle is awful but all the coaches like my crossover. So, don't get frustrated by your progress. Just be patient, practice the right elements and you will be able to improve

mskater93 · May 20, 2016

Also, if you learn on your own and then get a private coach when you think you are ready to start jumping, you will likely delay your starting to jump because he/she will want to clean up your basics first, as an FYI.

Off-ice practice of air position?

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