2016-17 State of Russian Ice Dance | Page 59 | Golden Skate

2016-17 State of Russian Ice Dance

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Leave my Loboda & Drozd alone. Have we not learned enough yet about the cost of young Russian dance teams tossing aside years of experience as a team? It's not something you just replace at the drop of a hat. Do we expect Elena to stay in more than 5 more years? Pavel is just getting started. He should have many Olympics ahead of him.

I want Elena to skate. Just not at the cost of the future. Starting from scratch is not all it's cracked up to be.
 

Nightcrawler

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Leave my Loboda & Drozd alone. Have we not learned enough yet about the cost of young Russian dance teams tossing aside years of experience as a team? It's not something you just replace at the drop of a hat. Do we expect Elena to stay in more than 5 more years? Pavel is just getting started. He should have many Olympics ahead of him.

I want Elena to skate. Just not at the cost of the future. Starting from scratch is not all it's cracked up to be.

Agreed. If anything, these past seasons must have taught Russian skaters that switching partners at will is not the answer (ask American pairs at that). If you look at the top teams at Worlds, they all have 10+ years of partnerships in common. Compare them to Ilinykh, Katsalapov, Sinitsina, Ziganshin, Yanovskaya, Mozgov's season and the picture is clear. If they want to go places, they should stick to their current partners and make it work.
 
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bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Agreed. If anything, these past seasons must have taught Russian skaters that switching partners at will is not the answer (ask American pairs at that). If you look at the top teams at Worlds, they all have 10+ years of partnerships in common. Compare them to Ilinykh, Katsalapov, Sinitsina, Ziganshin, Yanovskaya, Mozgov's season and the picture is clear. If they want to go places, they should stick to their current partners and make it work.

In my humble opinion, there was never a partner in Russia that matched her intensity, that is her complete package. By Zhulin's own account Nikita was intimidated by her. Then to make matters worse she ended the personal component of their relationship. Nikita, has his talents but he is fragile mentally and physically. When I watch their OG SD I see a woman dancing with a boy trying to be a man. With Sinitsina he looks juniorish if that makes sense. Lena helped Nikita lift his game and he kept her on her toes. It's just a pity for the sake of sport they couldn't have stuck it out. She's the only ice dancer Russia has right now who genuinely knows how to dance on ice, all the others simply do synchronized skating on ice. If Russia had partners of the calibre of say a Andrew Poje, then that would be a couple. I am also of the view that Drozd would be a good fit for her as Loboda doesn't impress me much but unless he wanted to make the move I don't see Lena jumping ship on Ruslan like that. Cest la vie.
 
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moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I kind of don´t see Elena as a top star as many people here seem to believe.
Yes, she has personality and is a diva. But then... Her partnership with Nikita didn´t work well even before they split, as both were pretty inconsistent (which is a major sin in ice dance).
Her partnership with Ruslan didnt work either, because, once more, both were making mistakes.
I kind of feel that, while she, without doubt, has presence on ice, she lacks the talent and work ethics needed to be a top ice dancer. Because a partnership takes 2 people, and if a partnership doesnt work, there are issues with both skaters.

Personally, i dont believe that both Elena and Nikita will ever achieve something. They are extremely talented, extremely charismatic but kind of spoiled by their success. They got things easy just on their talent when they started, but just failed to deal with pressure. Failed to work hard.

Compare that with a team like B/S, and how they keep working and improving despite all the injuries and the meldonium suspension.
Or Shib-shibs, they probably have half of Elena´s and Nikita´s talent and presence. But can anyone here even imagine Alex don´t even trying the twizzles?
 
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bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I kind of don´t see Elena as a top star as many people here seem to believe.
Yes, she has personality and is a diva. But then... Her partnership with Nikita didn´t work well even before they split, as both were pretty inconsistent (which is a major sin in ice dance).
Her partnership with Ruslan didnt work either, because, once more, both were making mistakes.
I kind of feel that, while she, without doubt, has presence on ice, she lacks the talent and work ethics needed to be a top ice dancer. Because a partnership takes 2 people, and if a partnership doesnt work, there are issues with both skaters.

Personally, i dont believe that both Elena and Nikita will ever achieve something. They are extremely talented, extremely charismatic but kind of spoiled by their success. They got things easy just on their talent when they started, but just failed to deal with pressure. Failed to work hard.

Compare that with a team like B/S, and how they keep working and improving despite all the injuries and the meldonium suspension.
Or Shib-shibs, they probably have half of Elena´s and Nikita´s talent and presence. But can anyone here even imagine Alex don´t even trying the twizzles?

You are right on some levels but the bigger issue here is that Lena and Nikita were never a compatible pairing for psychological reasons, more than anything else. Further I can't recall the last time that Russia produced a competitive ice dancer of the calibre of a Poje, Cizeron or Moir. Lena Ilinykh is all that and a bag of chips you just go back and watch her performances especially Frida, just has never had a partner to match her abilities. When you don't have that obviously its going to appear like you're regressing and the partnership must begin to look ridiculous as Ruslan cannot keep up. Where then is the motivation? What do you do? I don't have a clue. Further, let's not start comparing apples and oranges here, up to a few years ago B/S were just as error prone as I/K or even I/Z. The most stable pairing Russia seems to have to me is S/B. and quite frankly they are adequate but not awe inspiring. I/K were all that even as kids. That's the sad part of all this.
 

olayolay

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Scott Moir is the only skater I can think of who can match Elena in intensity and talent. He's basically an upgraded Nikita in every way possible.

It would probably end in murder-suicide though.
 
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uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
I kind of don´t see Elena as a top star as many people here seem to believe.
Yes, she has personality and is a diva. But then... Her partnership with Nikita didn´t work well even before they split, as both were pretty inconsistent (which is a major sin in ice dance).
Her partnership with Ruslan didnt work either, because, once more, both were making mistakes.
I kind of feel that, while she, without doubt, has presence on ice, she lacks the talent and work ethics needed to be a top ice dancer. Because a partnership takes 2 people, and if a partnership doesnt work, there are issues with both skaters.

Personally, i dont believe that both Elena and Nikita will ever achieve something. They are extremely talented, extremely charismatic but kind of spoiled by their success. They got things easy just on their talent when they started, but just failed to deal with pressure. Failed to work hard.

Compare that with a team like B/S, and how they keep working and improving despite all the injuries and the meldonium suspension.
Or Shib-shibs, they probably have half of Elena´s and Nikita´s talent and presence. But can anyone here even imagine Alex don´t even trying the twizzles?

How nice that two Olympic medals is never achieving anything :)

The Shibs had a period of making mistakes - Worlds 2012 was a disaster for them (and I seem to remember a completely abandoned set of twizzles there), they didn't look convincing as a top team from 2011 to 2015, when they had a good SD, but a poor FD. But that's what I would expect from a team their age, just as I would from Elena & Nikita's up & down partnership - they were teenagers, ice dancers take longer to fully adjust to seniors than in singles where it's possible to break through straight away - plus personalities change from when you are 14 to when you are 20, 21. I remember Elena saying in the Olympic season that she felt they had only really learned & understood how to work properly together as a team in the summer of 2013, and you could see that whole season how everything was a step up from where they were previously. But the point with I/K, is that when it really mattered, they delivered. There was a solid foundation, for them to build on, and he decided to throw it away.

Yeah, Elena & Ruslan have made mistakes, but so does every new team. Victoria & Nikita turned up at their first event looking like they skated together for six weeks, not six months. I/Z clearly worked their backsides off to get ready for their first season. Since then, there have been times when they haven't looked ready - Skate America last year, but they've also had to deal with injuries, freak incidents like missing out on Euros only because of a bangle falling and not getting the benefit of the doubt from the federation that other teams have. Maybe they could have done more, just as S/K should have worked harder to hold off S/B this year, but equally, expecting every team to be perfect every time is ridiculous and it's that kind of pressure & expectation of quick wins that leads to partner hopping.

On the giving up point - I've never seen Elena give up on anything. Nikita does, frequently, and you are right that he will not achieve anything more in his career if he doesn't fix his attitude. He threw away a world championship and even that didn't make him change, so I don't hold out any hope there.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
I'm reading very interesting things in this thread...

First of all, if anyone thinks that Elena needs someone who is Cizeron/Moir/Poje Caliber, the answer is absolutely NOT. Ice dance doesn't work like that, it might get you somewhere but probably never at the top for sure.
What do V/M, D/W, P/C, Shibs, and even StepBukin have ? Longevity. Years and Years together. What does these teams have, plus Weapo, C/L, B/S for example ? Incredible RESPECT for each other.

Fans of Elena, don't take that the wrong way but in Ice Dance you are 2. It's never about finding the best single skaters and put them together, it's finding who gets along with who. And success doesn't appear overnight. I/K broke up and suddenly it's I/Z vs S/K because there is a bronze medalist in each team, and next thing you know, Step/Bukin grabs the spot.

Shibsibs worked so hard not to make mistakes ever again. D/W worked so hard and claimed gold against V/M who are honestly more natural talents compared to most of the teams. P/C are a young team but very calm and collected, and argue once a year maximum because "no point". V/M do not care about the attention but are SO driven and want to win that they'll do everything they can possibly do on the ice to reach the top. Weapo fell down the ranks a bit but managed to finish 4th this year. You work, you shut up, you go out there, and if you fail, you'll do your best to never fail again. Period.

One thing that bothered me with I/Z programs : it's always about putting Elena in the light. I see 2 people skating and that is never a good sign, but they are both good, so you have to build the steps along the capacity of each member. What the heck was that Bollywood programm, it was genuinely insulting both of them and left me... frustrated. It was sloppy. I wished they moved to Marie-France, she knows how to make a team look like one. I always felt like Igor's style was a lot about letting the lady shine more. Not always a good idea...
But I really thought that they had a future. Not in the top 3 or maybe 5, but climbing up the ranks slowly at least. The judges were ready for that in the 2014-2015 season.
(But it's not over until they say so ! ;) )
I hope they do get the fire back. And way better programs.
For S/K, well, they almost skate like they don't care. I mean, they could stop skating in the middle of their programs and say : "Okay I'm tired let's go home". I always feel like they are going to retire after every event, they look so... elsewhere. :(

Conclusion : they all need another 2/3 years to adjust, skate, get along, these things take time ! Behavior is key, they already have the skating skills.
Wishing them the very best.
 
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NoNameFace

GS given name - Beatrice
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
whole post

THIS. So much, thanks a lot, Anyasnake for that view of the situation I'm sharing

what bothers me the most reading a lot of people's opinions on ID teams, programs etc. is how they tend to stress out individualities inside those teams - I mean, the girls in weaker, boy is too shy, another one is a diva or have so striking skills comparing to his/her partner...As you've said - it takes two to make a team able to last through tough times, times of errors, puberty, injuries, other stuff, of course - it's only for the best if you have 2 individuals with striking skills like e.g. Guillaume or incredible personality, natural performer talent like e.g. Elena, but the key is to use them for team's best, to allow these skills to shine on their fullest while being shared with partner. And for me, that great, individual skill, more 'stiking' one in comparison to the partner means more of a responsibility than a 'right' to shine on is own. But it takes TIME to understand each other strenghts, weaknesses, UNDERSTANDING and WILLINGNESS towards individual preferences, things different between two people and mutual RESPECT about partnership and unit they want to make. Two people could be polar opposites of each other in terms of character/expression, but if they have an iron strong work ethic and common goal channelled in passion for the sport and are willing to themselves time, adding healthy environment and right team around - there's no way they could not make it happen. But you have to be strict towards yourself for the sake of another and the team you're gonna make, no excuses.

two great examples of making it work despite issues are Shibutanis and Weaver/Poje - through steady development, respect, supportive attitude to each other and being serious and professional about the team they were able to elevate their respective skills and as a results, made better partnerships on ice and reaching success. Shibutanis - even despite the stigma of 'siblings team' and period after 2011 with Maia's puberty issues, they were able to risk, re-vamp and blossom under different style, mastering their skill to the T. Kaitlyn and Andrew - even with some troubles with 'hitting' their stuff at Worlds past two seasons and material maybe not for every liking, they still managed to stay as a one of top ice dance teams, captivating audiences with chemistry they have and harmony in their movement. That stuff does not come overnight and they did for me even more rare and admirable thing as they could establish a kind of their personal signature, aside of solid performances and execution. And while I don't really dig in full their transfer to Morozov, I do think that this was the right decision to switch environments - they started new season in a 'rocky' manner during GP series, but it got better and better, with right peaking at Worlds. They showed great maturity and unity in times of change, their renewed poise, determination and mutual support were palpable for me - getting the best out of them in a season of change coach, with PBs at WTT where they were flawless at the end of it proves how strong their bond is as partners, the fuel and fire are given by both of them with same force I feel.

and I'm glad that I'm not alone with Elena/Ruslan material as main flaw setting them backwards, along with lack of mutual engagement into one, precise direction. For me, there's too much stressing put onto Elena: her personality, performer's quality, talent etc. and the paradox thing is that lately their programs did not even show those qualities off. You have to firstly understand each other, work with each other - on skills, style, way of movement, expression - and work closely with your team to come up with the best material possible to reflect your hard work, natural qualities and level of chemistry. A showy program that seems to be 'judge pleaser' due to theme/music/style is not a solution if it's forced concept, especially with no solid execution backing. Commitment into something badly done, unpolished is not enough, fierce face should be matched with sharp skill executed to defend that face and whole team.

First - realisation that this is a team work, demanding from both sides involved and whole team around is the key. You have to put your striking qualities aside and learn how to work, skate, perform the best in two and after that - how to jointly incorporate and express your individuality for team's sake, not yours. You could have different personalities between the partners, but if you're able to make a harmonious unity on ice, it's a great thing even with some mistakes, but it takes time to make that impression every time stepping on ice, not only occasionally with some more 'fitting' program.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
That's good but this is also Russian ice dance! From 1975 to 2013 every single worlds before the Olympics (and almost all the others) had one or multiple Russian medalists. Every Olympics had Russian winners or medalists. What about the expectations for success? Why should a team like I/k continue when they don't medal at worlds or even place second at Olympics? The team obviously was a huge failure that didnt work. They need to stop changing partners? How many people was navka and kostomarev and grishuk and platov have? Russia still thinks it has a formula for success and that's why unlike almost all other countries their dance teams don't train in North America. So they just have to find the right combination of skaters. All the teams must be terrible. So create new ones.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Guillaume is one of the best dancers we have ever seen with his fluid, beautiful movement, but I don't think he'd have the success he's had without Gabriella. She brings the soul through her eyes and face. Her style of movement also complements him perfectly and I don't think any other ice dancer competing in the senior level right now would complement him as well. Most importantly, they are together emotionally and psychologically. Elena with Guillaume would not work for many reasons already stated above. I think that partnership would be a huge mismatch and would be jarring to watch.

Elena needs to work on her partnering skills because three seasons later and she and Ruslan still have a mismatched quality and she hasn't shown any willingness to work on it as their material still seems to be all about her and Ruslan has to adapt to her.
 
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coldblueeyes

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Brazil
I don't really like to comment much on Elena, because fandom ruined her for me a bit, but the only program that seemed to be on point for them was their first SD back in 2014. It worked in a way nothing else did after - and why's that? It seemed like all they did since then was change styles left and right and never find anything that adapted to them, something to grow into. None of their programs were inspired, yes, I'm still in no-Frida camp. And then it wasn't just the programs because mistakes and lack of preparation, and even lack of competition (I mean, B/S competed more this season than I/Z have competed in the last two) set them back.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I/z competed in mordovian ornament which wasn't real and really really hurt them because everyone there lied to them.
 
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