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Thread: 2016-17 State of Russian Ice Dance

  1. #1126
    Pogoenchantment Ares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowWhite View Post
    ??? There were some similarities because it was Marina, but I never found V/M and D/W to skate super similar styles. And "a lot of precise themes or powerful music" isn't really how I'd describe V/M's style. The most obvious difference of course would be that their programs tended to feature much more romance than D/W, which suited them just fine. Besides, V/M have always been a versatile team, especially compared to teams like P/C and C/L (not criticizing these teams, I like them both a lot). That's why they tend to excel in the SD. Of their FD's, I've seen a lot of fans list these as their favourite: Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Mahler, Carmen and sometimes Hip Hip Chin Chin. Pretty different styles in there.

    Anyways, back on topic, I agree that every team shouldn't try to do the same style. It does get sort of boring. I think the issues with levels with the Russian teams are much more important than the style. The comments you hear from some of their coaches, essentially saying levels aren't real or are just politics make it look like they don't get it. And maybe this isn't actually true, but if the coaches don't get/believe in levels or whatever, that's a major problem. And also, I think the quality of the coach matters more than location. I don't know enough about most of the coaches coaching in Russia to make any judgements about how good they are, but it does seem pretty clear that Marina, Igor and the Montreal team are all great coaches, so if they are better than the Russian coaches, then there would be an advantage to working with them, politics aside.

    Maybe they could lure at least one of those working in NA to Russia? Many of them are ethnic Russian after all. Being dominant for years bit Russians back after developing great teams & coaches in their own country. They eventually left and started developing Ice Dance in foreign centres.
    Last edited by Ares; 04-26-2017 at 01:48 PM.

  2. #1127
    Tripping on the Podium SnowWhite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    Maybe they could lure at least one of those working in NA to Russia? Many of them are ethnic Russian after all.
    You never know, but I think Marina and Igor seem pretty happy with the schools they've built in NA.

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    Pogoenchantment Ares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowWhite View Post
    You never know, but I think Marina and Igor seem pretty happy with the schools they've built in NA.
    The last top not-Russian or Eastern European team that used to train in Russia that spring to my mind is Pechalat / Bourzat. They were coached by Zhulin ... ?

    I don't expect Marina / Igor to start making closer connection with Russians again in any case. Maybe someone else?

  4. #1129
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowWhite View Post
    ??? There were some similarities because it was Marina, but I never found V/M and D/W to skate super similar styles. And "a lot of precise themes or powerful music" isn't really how I'd describe V/M's style. The most obvious difference of course would be that their programs tended to feature much more romance than D/W, which suited them just fine. Besides, V/M have always been a versatile team, especially compared to teams like P/C and C/L (not criticizing these teams, I like them both a lot). That's why they tend to excel in the SD. Of their FD's, I've seen a lot of fans list these as their favourite: Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Mahler, Carmen and sometimes Hip Hip Chin Chin. Pretty different styles in there.

    Anyways, back on topic, I agree that every team shouldn't try to do the same style. It does get sort of boring. I think the issues with levels with the Russian teams are much more important than the style. The comments you hear from some of their coaches, essentially saying levels aren't real or are just politics make it look like they don't get it. And maybe this isn't actually true, but if the coaches don't get/believe in levels or whatever, that's a major problem. And also, I think the quality of the coach matters more than location. I don't know enough about most of the coaches coaching in Russia to make any judgements about how good they are, but it does seem pretty clear that Marina, Igor and the Montreal team are all great coaches, so if they are better than the Russian coaches, then there would be an advantage to working with them, politics aside.
    I wasn't very clear I think. What I wanted to say was that Marina gave a lot of very different programs for both teams, so you could really see that they were versatile. It could be Malher (lyrical) or Carmen (more powerful). And the similarities were more in the way they moved in their programs : D/W and V/M had "russian style" programs, or maybe just "Marina style" . Their natural way of moving couldn't be more different, yet, between 2009-2014, it was very much more about athleticism (which is why I said powerful). Which is fine, but it suits D/W better, because V/M are more like natural dancers. And during that time I saw more 'dancing' with V/M than with D/W for example.
    Having said that, V/M should be glad they got to do such different dances at the time because it is REALLY helping them now. Experience always shows.

    But your guys are right about levels, the basics skating skills are the foundation of great skating. It never leaves you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    The last top not-Russian or Eastern European team that used to train in Russia that spring to my mind is Pechalat / Bourzat. They were coached by Zhulin ... ?

    I don't expect Marina / Igor to start making closer connection with Russians again in any case. Maybe someone else?
    Isn't Morozov between New Jersey and Moscow ?

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    Tripping on the Podium SnowWhite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anyasnake View Post
    I wasn't very clear I think. What I wanted to say was that Marina gave a lot of very different programs for both teams, so you could really see that they were versatile. It could be Malher (lyrical) or Carmen (more powerful). And the similarities were more in the way they moved in their programs : D/W and V/M had "russian style" programs, or maybe just "Marina style" . Their natural way of moving couldn't be more different, yet, between 2009-2014, it was very much more about athleticism (which is why I said powerful). Which is fine, but it suits D/W better, because V/M are more like natural dancers. And during that time I saw more 'dancing' with V/M than with D/W for example.
    Having said that, V/M should be glad they got to do such different dances at the time because it is REALLY helping them now. Experience always shows.

    But your guys are right about levels, the basics skating skills are the foundation of great skating. It never leaves you.
    Oh okay, yeah then I don't disagree.

  7. #1132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anyasnake View Post
    Isn't Morozov between New Jersey and Moscow ?
    But then he dosnt have any top teams atm except for W/P, but they just arrived and we yet need to see how it goes for them.
    (btw, speaking of non russian teams training in Russia, W/P)

    But i dont really see him being much better than Zhulin.

  8. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowWhite View Post
    ??? There were some similarities because it was Marina, but I never found V/M and D/W to skate super similar styles. And "a lot of precise themes or powerful music" isn't really how I'd describe V/M's style. The most obvious difference of course would be that their programs tended to feature much more romance than D/W, which suited them just fine. Besides, V/M have always been a versatile team, especially compared to teams like P/C and C/L (not criticizing these teams, I like them both a lot). That's why they tend to excel in the SD. Of their FD's, I've seen a lot of fans list these as their favourite: Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Mahler, Carmen and sometimes Hip Hip Chin Chin. Pretty different styles in there.

    Anyways, back on topic, I agree that every team shouldn't try to do the same style. It does get sort of boring. I think the issues with levels with the Russian teams are much more important than the style. The comments you hear from some of their coaches, essentially saying levels aren't real or are just politics make it look like they don't get it. And maybe this isn't actually true, but if the coaches don't get/believe in levels or whatever, that's a major problem. And also, I think the quality of the coach matters more than location. I don't know enough about most of the coaches coaching in Russia to make any judgements about how good they are, but it does seem pretty clear that Marina, Igor and the Montreal team are all great coaches, so if they are better than the Russian coaches, then there would be an advantage to working with them, politics aside.
    If a coach is in Russia they are more likely to do what federation says and even horrifyingly take the advice of Tarasova! Everyone must acknowledge that Tarasova influence has destroyed many programs in recent years! You must be able to ignore federation politics - unlikely as they are providing $$$$ - and ignore destructive awful Tarasova! Like her adding of tosca to everything or four seasons to everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    If a coach is in Russia they are more likely to do what federation says and even horrifyingly take the advice of Tarasova! Everyone must acknowledge that Tarasova influence has destroyed many programs in recent years! You must be able to ignore federation politics - unlikely as they are providing $$$$ - and ignore destructive awful Tarasova! Like her adding of tosca to everything or four seasons to everything.
    First, I must clarify that I am not a fan of Tarasova. I respect her for her work in earlier years, as well as for her overall passion and devotion for/to figure skating, and her commentary on competitions can be interesting, but some of the things she has said while commentating have been really disgusting (most of all I dislike how she contradicts herself and what she has said about some skaters/teams), and some of her decisions about programs etc. have not been good indeed.

    That said, I also dislike when rumours are stated as facts. Apart from that first instance with Bobrova/Soloviev's 2012/2013 season FD of which they themselves (or was it Zhulin?) said in an interview that Tarasova had proposed the addition of 'Toska' to the 'Man With a Harmonica', her involvement with the music choices or the changes made to the music of their later FDs is just rumours from figure skating fans that are based on nothing else but that first occassion.

    In regard to the 'Birds' FD, Zhulin himself said in an interview that it was his own idea to change the music to 'Lacrimosa' and 'Four Seasons'. And, as for their last FD, there has not been one word about Tarasova's involvement with the music choice from any semi reliable source. Clarification - for me, a reliable source would be Bobrova/Soloviev, Zhulin/Volkov, Tarasova herself or some federation official. A "semi reliable" source would be Vaitsekhovskaya - practically the only journalist writing about figure skating in Russia who has some "insider" information. But there has not been a word even along the lines of "this or that (insert, Bobrova etc.) told me that..." from what I know. So all this hate of yours is based only on empty rumours.
    Last edited by lauravvv; 04-26-2017 at 07:58 PM.

  10. #1135
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    First, I must clarify that I am not a fan of Tarasova. I respect her for her work in earlier years, as well as for her overall passion and devotion for/to figure skating, and her commentary on competitions can be interesting, but some of the things she has said while commentating have been really disgusting (most of all I dislike how she contradicts herself and what she has said about some skaters/teams), and some of her decisions about programs etc. have not been good indeed.

    That said, I also dislike when rumours are stated as facts. Apart from that first instance with Bobrova/Soloviev's 2012/2013 season FD of which they themselves (or was it Zhulin?) said in an interview that Tarasova had proposed the addition of 'Toska' to the 'Man With a Harmonica', her involvement with the music choices or the changes made to the music of their later FDs is just rumours from figure skating fans that are based on nothing else but that first occassion.

    In regard to the 'Birds' FD, Zhulin himself said in an interview that it was his own idea to change the music to 'Lacrimosa' and 'Four Seasons'. And, as for their last FD, there has not been one word about Tarasova's involvement with the music choice from any semi reliable source. Clarification - for me, a reliable source would be Bobrova/Soloviev, Zhulin/Volkov, Tarasova herself or some federation official. A "semi reliable" source would be Vaitsekhovskaya - practically the only journalist writing about figure skating in Russia who has some "insider" information. But there has not been a word even along the lines of "this or that (insert, Bobrova etc.) told me that..." from what I know. So all this hate of yours is based only on empty rumours.
    Undeniable tons of stuff in this thread are rumors. Sometimes they are true sometimes they are nothing! It's all because of extreme interest people have in teams that are supposed to be great and do great because they are Russian ice dance teams! Meanwhile all the results are now terrible and the whole system has collapsed into nearly nothing and people need to blame people like Tarasova or Kustarova or say Stepanova is a lousy skater or katsalapov beats his partner!

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