2016-17 State of Russian Ice Dance

Abraxis12345 · Jan 20, 2017

bramweld said:
Based on the fact that this is the only team to break out and win their first nationals based on the strength of a remarkable Carmen SD and their own desire to win. You are right that the Russian FED is clueless as to how to groom and train their dancers, but as they say hope dies last. I just can't accept that such talent is going to be wasted in Russia. :noshake:

As clueless as the Russian federation is, if Elena Ilinykh finishes her career without a world medal, she really has no one to blame but herself. Elena and Nikita have gone through a number of specialists together and apart and each stint always ends the same: underachievement and the coach being called incompetent by the fans

gmyers · Jan 20, 2017

bramweld said:
Based on the fact that this is the only team to break out and win their first nationals based on the strength of a remarkable Carmen SD and their own desire to win. You are right that the Russian FED is clueless as to how to groom and train their dancers, but as they say hope dies last. I just can't accept that such talent is going to be wasted in Russia. :noshake:

It's a unfortunate situation. The federation takes them away from spiliband? Prefers kustarova for them? It's so awful. My only hope is that Russian federation can realize everything their doing in dance is awful non IJS dance. They had no success in ladies and no set ideas about ladies. But most of the time two soviet or Russian dance teams were on world podiums and that set ideas in stone! Tarasova is still considered a dance expert. She's entirely 6.0. She has no experience working in IJS. She must be ignored.

Abraxis12345 said:
As clueless as the Russian federation is, if Elena Ilinykh finishes her career without a world medal, she really has no one to blame but herself. Elena and Nikita have gone through a number of specialists together and apart and each stint always ends the same: underachievement and the coach being called incompetent by the fans

This is why the problem I feel is the federation. Because really all the teams turn into failures in seniors. Not just I/k but I/z s/k s/b and b/s. There is one world medal between all these teams. B/s for a Russian team is not actually successful. They are considered the best and will actually be lucky to be in the top 10 at worlds. It's not a guarantee. All these teams have some unique problem but all share a problem is that the federation is clueless.

Morozov was not actually a part of the Russian ice dance establishment. I think that is why i/k could win bronze. He was only about IJS in all the disciplines he coaches. But their unique problems like hating each other prevented more success. Their Zhulin senior season was a disaster from start to finish. It combined their unique problems with his hatred of IJS dance and cluelessness.

bramweld · Jan 20, 2017

gmyers said:
It's a unfortunate situation. The federation takes them away from spiliband? Prefers kustarova for them? It's so awful. My only hope is that Russian federation can realize everything their doing in dance is awful non IJS dance. They had no success in ladies and no set ideas about ladies. But most of the time two soviet or Russian dance teams were on world podiums and that set ideas in stone! Tarasova is still considered a dance expert. She's entirely 6.0. She has no experience working in IJS. She must be ignored.

This is why the problem I feel is the federation. Because really all the teams turn into failures in seniors. Not just I/k but I/z s/k s/b and b/s. There is one world medal between all these teams. B/s for a Russian team is not actually successful. They are considered the best and will actually be lucky to be in the top 10 at worlds. It's not a guarantee. All these teams have some unique problem but all share a problem is that the federation is clueless.

Morozov was not actually a part of the Russian ice dance establishment. I think that is why i/k could win bronze. He was only about IJS in all the disciplines he coaches. But their unique problems like hating each other prevented more success. Their Zhulin senior season was a disaster from start to finish. It combined their unique problems with his hatred of IJS dance and cluelessness.

All together now how can they be so absolutely clueless

Heaven help them all if Weaver and Poje beat B/S at worlds. It might start WWIII knowing Putin :palmf:

katha · Jan 20, 2017

Abraxis12345 said:
As clueless as the Russian federation is, if Elena Ilinykh finishes her career without a world medal, she really has no one to blame but herself. Elena and Nikita have gone through a number of specialists together and apart and each stint always ends the same: underachievement and the coach being called incompetent by the fans

It's absolutely true that the skaters are ultimately responsible for their careers. But I also think that if you look at the four years in the senior ranks that I/K had together, there were things going wrong beyond that. For one, I thought almost all their programs were subpar. Ghost was a joke, of course. But almost everything else that Morozov and Zhulin delivered for them can be summed up under "generic mess" as well. The programs in the Olympic season were an exception. How much of that also ties back to the intervention they had with Shpilband is the question, of course.

bramweld · Jan 20, 2017

katha said:
It's absolutely true that the skaters are ultimately responsible for their careers. But I also think that if you look at the four years in the senior ranks that I/K had together, there were things going wrong beyond that. For one, I thought almost all their programs were subpar. Ghost was a joke, of course. But almost everything else that Morozov and Zhulin delivered for them can be summed up under "generic mess" as well. The programs in the Olympic season were an exception. How much of that also ties back to the intervention they had with Shpilband is the question, of course.

Igor forced Katsalapov to listen to someone other than himself and that's why it worked. There are very few K. deems worthy to instruct him, it's all just too much. :drama:

Abraxis12345 · Jan 20, 2017

bramweld said:
Igor forced Katsalapov to listen to someone other than himself and that's why it worked. There are very few K. deems worthy to instruct him, it's all just too much.

Elena also doesn't really listen to people. Not for nothing the only time Oleg Vasiliev has ever commented on ice dance was to talk about I/Z's move and how it will only work if they listen to Igor. Vasiliev was based in Medvedkovo so he probably knew the real issues.

Marta25 · Jan 20, 2017

Abraxis12345 said:
As clueless as the Russian federation is, if Elena Ilinykh finishes her career without a world medal, she really has no one to blame but herself. Elena and Nikita have gone through a number of specialists together and apart and each stint always ends the same: underachievement and the coach being called incompetent by the fans

Nikita made visible mistakes at 3 out of 4 Worlds they skated together. The only World Championship I can remember where Elena made an obvious mistake was in 2015, which was her first Worlds with Ruslan. It's true that she often struggles with her form early on in the season, but once Worlds came around she usually wasn't the one making mistakes. From the info we got from Russian forums and Shpilband himself, it sounds like money was one of the main reasons they had to leave Novi.

Abraxis12345 · Jan 20, 2017

Marta25 said:
Nikita made visible mistakes at 3 out of 4 Worlds they skated together. The only World Championship I can remember where Elena made an obvious mistake was in 2015, which was her first Worlds with Ruslan. It's true that she often struggles with her form early on in the season, but once Worlds came around she usually wasn't the one making mistakes. From the info we got from Russian forums and Shpilband himself, it sounds like money was one of the main reasons they had to leave Novi.

Vaitsekhovskaya's version of the story is the sponsor didn't want to pay for Igor anymore because he wasn't getting a return on his investment (and she implies the sponsor told her himself). The sponsor may still be helping them but not at the level before the test skates.

Being out of shape for a good part of the year and only pulling it together for big comps may be fine if you are Serena Williams and only have yourself to worry about but ice dance involves two people and it's hard to get the timing right if your partner's weight is yo yoing and you are constantly worried about what your partner might do in a competition. I'm not saying Nikita is without his issues but you can't succeed at this level if you are half assing it two thirds of the time.

Lana05 · Jan 20, 2017

We have so many promising ice dancers in junior field wit new couches. And we are improving our own ice dance, not investing in US couches. And I really appreciate that. That is smart. Don't want them training somewhere not in Russia. That is a waste of money.

bramweld · Jan 20, 2017

I find all this incessant chatter about Lena's weight more than a bit distasteful. Lena was never a waif and she was never going to be barring starvation. Considering her genes we all know this. The real issue is that Ruslan is small and there is little size separation between the two. She is constantly being told that she's inadequate and mentally it could be taking a toll. So how does this work? Be creative and take your time. We've seen it done time and time again. The problem is the Russian Fed are still working with the 6.0 system, in their minds the exterior is everything. So if they have more than enough who can fit the bill, working with Lena and Ruslan is a waste of time. So given this is their stance, again I ask the question, why not let them skate for another country. They've done the same for Khaliavin and Yanovskaya?

madison · Jan 20, 2017

bramweld said:
I find all this incessant chatter about Lena's weight more than a bit distasteful. Lena was never a waif and she was never going to be barring starvation. Considering her genes we all know this. The real issue is that Ruslan is small and there is little size separation between the two. She is constantly being told that she's inadequate and mentally it could be taking a toll. So how does this work? Be creative and take your time. We've seen it done time and time again. The problem is the Russian Fed are still working with the 6.0 system, in their minds the exterior is everything. So if they have more than enough who can fit the bill, working with Lena and Ruslan is a waste of time. So given this is their stance, again I ask the question, why not let them skate for another country. They've done the same for Khaliavin and Yanovskaya?

Do they want to skate for other country?

Abraxis12345 · Jan 20, 2017

Weight and condition play a big part of the performance and when we are discussing why a team is underachieving, changing weight is evidence that someone is not working hard. If even Stepanova gained 10 pounds, she'd still look skinny but it will affect her performance and affect the timing on lifts. Multiple science experiments with objects well within the person's lifting capacity show that when they are lifting something heavier than expected, they experience some balance loss Doesn't matter if the object is 5% or 35% of someone's lifting capacity. Like think about when someone hands you a bag of groceries and instead of bread and lettuce, the bag contains cans. Your arm drops a bit right?

If you look at Shtork and Rand, there was a 3cm height difference between them (vs the 13cm btwn I/Z) and Taavi was very skinny while Irina had a more athletic build. But their lifts were a lot better than I/Z's (even though they both had the same acrobat working with them) because everything was always consistent. Irina's weight was consistent, their timing never changed, and Irina actually helped with the lifts.

bramweld · Jan 20, 2017

That's it isn't it. They probably don't want to

I'm just selfishly wishing they did, for obvious reasons.

madison · Jan 20, 2017

bramweld said:
That's it isn't it. They probably don't want to I'm just selfishly wishing they did, for obvious reasons.

yes, but maybe they'll have an opportunity to make the Euro and World team after 2018, when probably B/S will retire.

bramweld · Jan 20, 2017

Maybe. But I think I need a break from this conversation. Just watching the US Junior ID competition makes it so clear how lack lustre Russian ID really is. The Parsons :luv17:. A team again with not much size difference between them and they make it work, they have so many lovely qualities all without a romantic vibe. Hopefully I/Z will be inspired by these exemplars.

EDIT: I also like C/P, the Greens, Lewis/Bye, a lot of promise with great basics already in place.

gmyers · Jan 20, 2017

Lana05 said:
We have so many promising ice dancers in junior field wit new couches. And we are improving our own ice dance, not investing in US couches. And I really appreciate that. That is smart. Don't want them training somewhere not in Russia. That is a waste of money.

It just depends on what you believe is a waste of money. Russia is spending money on 6.0 ice dance. It's not spending mone on IJS ice dance. Money is being spent on Tarasova with S/B and Tchaikovskaya with S/K. Why are the spending money on that?

I guess you have high expectations for Ksenia Rumiantseva and Ekaterina Volobueva.

madison · Jan 20, 2017

gmyers said:
It just depends on what you believe is a waste of money. Russia is spending money on 6.0 ice dance. It's not spending mone on IJS ice dance. Money is being spent on Tarasova with S/B and Tchaikovskaya with S/K. Why are the spending money on that?

I guess you have high expectations for Ksenia Rumiantseva and Ekaterina Volobueva.

I personally hope they will fix Loboda's issues: control of the movements, facial expression, make-up, costumes :palmf:

katha · Jan 21, 2017

Changing countries, if the Russian fed grants a release (but they seem to be more reasonable about this than some others...coughFrancecough), also comes with considerable problems. I'm not aware that there's another ice dance program that picks up so much of the expenses for the skaters on the national team. It's obviously not what it used to be and financing has become a struggle for Russian ice dancers as well, but it's probably still better than about anywhere else. And then you're out on your own representing, say, Uzbekistan, and have to somehow organize all those funds yourself. The added stress of only that probably shouldn't be underestimated. Also, zero political standing. The Russian fed has become rather ineffective at organizing and politicking for ice dancers, agreed, but it's still better than nothing.

Abraxis12345 · Jan 21, 2017

katha said:
Changing countries, if the Russian fed grants a release (but they seem to be more reasonable about this than some others...coughFrancecough), also comes with considerable problems. I'm not aware that there's another ice dance program that picks up so much of the expenses for the skaters on the national team. It's obviously not what it used to be and financing has become a struggle for Russian ice dancers as well, but it's probably still better than about anywhere else. And then you're out on your own representing, say, Uzbekistan, and have to somehow organize all those funds yourself. The added stress of only that probably shouldn't be underestimated. Also, zero political standing. The Russian fed has become rather ineffective at organizing and politicking for ice dancers, agreed, but it's still better than nothing.

Hurtado and Khaliavin and Yanovskaya and Lukas also aren't insisting on working with cirque acrobats, personal trainers, Najarro, Smekalov, and whatever other world famous dancers, choreographers and professionals that Elena feels entitled to have.

Marta25 · Jan 21, 2017

Abraxis12345 said:
Hurtado and Khaliavin and Yanovskaya and Lukas also aren't insisting on working with cirque acrobats, personal trainers, Najarro, Smekalov, and whatever other world famous dancers, choreographers and professionals that Elena feels entitled to have.

I don`t think this has anything to do with entitlement. If we look at the top ice dance schools like Montreal, Novi, DSC and Canton then we see that working with experts in their respective fields is what is needed nowadays to succeed in ice dance. Every top school makes sure that their teams have access to different specialists as an addition to the main coaching.
Besides, Elena and Ruslan paid for Najarro, Arapov and other specialists they worked with from their own pockets and the prize money they received. They had to find a sponsor after last season because there was no money left and the funding they received from the Fed was already given to Kustarova.

2016-17 State of Russian Ice Dance

Abraxis12345

gmyers

bramweld

katha

bramweld

Abraxis12345

Marta25

Abraxis12345

Lana05

bramweld

madison

Abraxis12345

bramweld

madison

bramweld

gmyers

madison

katha

Abraxis12345

Marta25

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