Ladies skating 2018 and beyond

noidont · Sep 28, 2016

concorde said:
In Russia, skaters have to meet certain timetables. If they don't meet them, they are cut from the "team." Only if you are on the "team" are you going to get funding (which includes lessons, quality ice time, programs, skates/boots, and off-ice). Once cut from the team, all this goes away and even finding a coach to teach you are private lesson is next to impossible. At least that is was how it was explained to me from a mother whose daughter is currently on the "team." By "team," I mean currently funded by the Federation and in the pipeline, but not necessarily yet reached the Junior or Senior ranks.

As a parent, I view that Russian focuses a lot on developing their skaters, while the US focuses on the developed skater.

My impression is the Chinese system is more like the US system. My neighbor has a niece who is a Chinese skater who visited for the summer. The Chinese mother seem unfazed by the US system while the mother of the Russian skater seemed overwhelmed by the US system. I'm curious how accurate my impression.

Chinese skaters come from two separate tracks, the amateur system and the so-called "professional" provincial teams/sports schools. The amateur system is a lot like the US system, whereas the other system like the Russian ones, though not as well funded or managed. Provincial team athletes get a salary and free training facilities, whereas the amateurs are covered by their parents. Xiaoyu Yu was the first skater who made national team from the amateur system. Yu/Jin used to represent their club, not any provincial team, though Jin Yang was in a provincial team before he paired up with Yu.
Skaters from both tracks can compete together in a series of domestic competitions a bit like the Russian Cups, but it's my impression that they tend to only send provincial team skaters to the JGPs and other competitions abroad. It's also never clear what the criteria are for making the national team. This spring they set up a junior national team and one of the junior girls quitted the team to go back to amateur status because the professional stream would bar athletes from going to normal schools. IMO it's a totally crap system run by ignorant bureaucrats.

sarama · Sep 28, 2016

As everyone else I expect a Russian and Japanese domination and, let's be real, it has already started! Gradually I also expect the Koreans to rise: they have good jumps, they are an impressive number, and I'm sure they will improve on PCS as coaches become more experienced on the international circuit... Yu-Na is not competing anymore but she left quite a legacy!

andromache · Sep 28, 2016

I'd love to see the US attempt a smaller-scale Russian program to resuscitate its ladies program - since it is the main attraction of all the disciplines in the US - by funding the skating of 10-15 9-11 year old girls nationwide: girls with promise, who will drop out of the sport unless they receive funding, and also on the condition that they move to such-and-such elite coach. Keep standards high, and if a girl can't keep up after 1-2 years, cut the funding and re-allocate it to someone young and new.

On the one hand it's cut-throat, but on the other it's giving poor girls the chance to become stars in a rich-people sport. Then again, that same money being spent funding 10-15 elite girls can also fund the skating of ten times that number at a recreational level.

drivingmissdaisy · Sep 28, 2016

In some ways, it may be good for the sport here if we don't have strong juniors. Yes, Gracie and Ashley have combined for exactly one world or Olympic individual medal, but at least they are consistently at the top here and we've gotten to know them over the years. Russia has had SEVEN world or Olympic individual medalists in the previous five seasons but not one has repeated. (I suspect that will change this season.) It becomes hard to stay a fan when the women have one knock-out season then get displaced permanently at the top.

moriel · Sep 28, 2016

andromache said:
I'd love to see the US attempt a smaller-scale Russian program to resuscitate its ladies program - since it is the main attraction of all the disciplines in the US - by funding the skating of 10-15 9-11 year old girls nationwide: girls with promise, who will drop out of the sport unless they receive funding, and also on the condition that they move to such-and-such elite coach. Keep standards high, and if a girl can't keep up after 1-2 years, cut the funding and re-allocate it to someone young and new.

On the one hand it's cut-throat, but on the other it's giving poor girls the chance to become stars in a rich-people sport. Then again, that same money being spent funding 10-15 elite girls can also fund the skating of ten times that number at a recreational level.

It should be something like a tree imho: a small bit of funding to keep local rinks open and cheap enough for kids to skate without big sacrifice. Something most families in the area can afford. And then, out of those many kids, pick the talented ones for the "team".
For example, when I was a kid (in Russia), we had a small rink that would recieve some state funding - it was just a field, where kids would roller skate during summer, and skate during winter - not a big fancy facility or whatever, and not a huge expense. Parents paid small fees too, but it was affordable - so many many many kids would come and skate. Then out of those, a few kids that showed some promise and some interest in practicing more (many kids just obviously skated for fun only) would go for extra training and so on, recieving more and more support as they showed more promise.

Imho, the main issue in USA is not even that families have to pay for training and promising skaters drop because its too expensive. Its that a lot of potentially great skaters don´t even get to try figure skating because they cannot afford even trying it.

moriel · Sep 28, 2016

drivingmissdaisy said:
In some ways, it may be good for the sport here if we don't have strong juniors. Yes, Gracie and Ashley have combined for exactly one world or Olympic individual medal, but at least they are consistently at the top here and we've gotten to know them over the years. Russia has had SEVEN world or Olympic individual medalists in the previous five seasons but not one has repeated. (I suspect that will change this season.) It becomes hard to stay a fan when the women have one knock-out season then get displaced permanently at the top.

Russians very commonly cheer for the team, while appreciating the skill and talent of individual skaters. So there are two components - "omg skater X is so awesome" and "yay our team won medals".

TGee · Sep 28, 2016

moriel said:
It should be something like a tree imho: a small bit of funding to keep local rinks open and cheap enough for kids to skate without big sacrifice. Something most families in the area can afford. And then, out of those many kids, pick the talented ones for the "team". ...

....Imho, the main issue in USA is not even that families have to pay for training and promising skaters drop because its too expensive. Its that a lot of potentially great skaters don´t even get to try figure skating because they cannot afford even trying it.

While not being able to afford to try is an issue, IMO the barrier of costs at even the lower levels of figure skating in North America is intimidating for many families. It is estimated that most sports take 10,000 hours to reach elite levels, and even when the funding becomes available from national federations it is very modest compared to annual training costs.

In Canada, we have a bit more of a base in terms of access to basic skating and public ice. Here skating is considered a heritage sport and basic skating one of the fundamental movements of physical literacy. Community rinks may have low cost or free family skate sessions. Children are often taken to local rinks to skate in school. Where winter is sufficiently cold, there are outdoor rinks set up in local parks which anyone can use. But this doesn't get a child to figure skating or even hockey. It usually just means most everyone can skate forward and hopefully stop.

In some cases provinces or municipalities subsidize ice time for skating clubs which does reduce the barrier at the entry level. This does increase the pool of talent. But the talent spotting doesn't really kick in until kids are fairly far up on the competitive track. New summer series competitions in each section that reach down to the pre-novice level have been put in place in Canada to help with that. The short run result seems to be more money spent by parents to gain their kids exposure in the summer series....

hippomoomin · Sep 28, 2016

My impression is that historically, Chinese followed the Soviet model of centralized sports system. That works best for a country that does not a strong amateur base. Everything is changing rapidly now I guess. With figure skating, it seems all top Chinese skaters are from several cities in the Northeast of China. So I guess is, most part of the country does not even have a competitive/professional figure skating program. There aren't many figure skating coaches in the entire country either I guess. All the coaches/skaters are concentred in the region close to Russia, Japan and South Korea.

noidont said:
Chinese skaters come from two separate tracks, the amateur system and the so-called "professional" provincial teams/sports schools. The amateur system is a lot like the US system, whereas the other system like the Russian ones, though not as well funded or managed. Provincial team athletes get a salary and free training facilities, whereas the amateurs are covered by their parents. Xiaoyu Yu was the first skater who made national team from the amateur system. Yu/Jin used to represent their club, not any provincial team, though Jin Yang was in a provincial team before he paired up with Yu.
Skaters from both tracks can compete together in a series of domestic competitions a bit like the Russian Cups, but it's my impression that they tend to only send provincial team skaters to the JGPs and other competitions abroad. It's also never clear what the criteria are for making the national team. This spring they set up a junior national team and one of the junior girls quitted the team to go back to amateur status because the professional stream would bar athletes from going to normal schools. IMO it's a totally crap system run by ignorant bureaucrats.

concorde · Sep 29, 2016

TGee said:
In Canada, we have a bit more of a base in terms of access to basic skating and public ice. Here skating is considered a heritage sport and basic skating one of the fundamental movements of physical literacy. Community rinks may have low cost or free family skate sessions. Children are often taken to local rinks to skate in school. Where winter is sufficiently cold, there are outdoor rinks set up in local parks which anyone can use. But this doesn't get a child to figure skating or even hockey. It usually just means most everyone can skate forward and hopefully stop.

Now compare that to the USA model (and try not to laugh to hard). My daughter gets a week of "skating" at her school (2 30-minute lessons during PE). The kids go the gym and each child is given 2 paper plates which they then use as their "skates." They then have a "public" ice session around the gym. And this is their "exposure" to the sport (fyi - the school does something similar for swimming).

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 29, 2016

concorde said:
They then have a "public" ice session around the gym. And this is their "exposure" to the sport (fyi - the school does something similar for swimming).

Like what??? Riding on their bellies while scooting around on top of mop buckets :dance2:

I'm filing this conversation under the "beyond" aspect of this thread.

TGee · Sep 29, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
Like what??? Riding on their bellies while scooting around on top of mop buckets :dance2:

I'm filing this conversation under the "beyond" aspect of this thread.

Taking it back to ladies 2018 and beyond, if the average access to basic skating is sliding on pie plates, are we surprised that the US finds it challenging to find competitive depth in this discipline despite a good fan base, a great history of achievement and a large population?

I concede the the point that training costs after basic would be somewhat secondary to this impediment for the US. Just makes the successes there are more striking.:agree:

....and at this point the cost barrier issue seems more relevant to the EU anticompetitive concerns thread....

bosskil · Sep 29, 2016

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_in_the_United_States#Government_regulation

Read first sentence of the paragraph and you already know you're in trouble... :rolleye:

Mathman · Sep 29, 2016

bosskil said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_in_the_United_States#Government_regulation

Read first sentence of the paragraph and you already know you're in trouble...

"No American government agency is charged with overseeing sports. However, the President's Council on Physical Fitness and Sports advises the President through the Secretary of Health and Human Services about physical activity, fitness, and sports, and recommends programs to promote regular physical activity for the health of all Americans…"

Good for us! Surely the "health and fitness of all Americans" is more important than some silly medals. I like the skating on paper plates activity. Why would anyone make fun of children enjoying this game?

(Michelle Kwan serves on this Council, by the way.

)

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 29, 2016

Mathman said:
Good for us! Surely the "health and fitness of all Americans" is more important than some silly medals. I like the skating on paper plates activity. Why would anyone make fun of children enjoying this game?

(Michelle Kwan serves on this Council, by the way. )

It's not the skating on paper plates that's funny...well...maybe a little but what I find funny is that it's even necessary. I'm assuming Concorde doesn't live that far from an ice rink based on context clue from past postings. How about a field trip?

I support any ingenuity in order to bring kids a better PE experience and yes....even riding on mop buckets would get my :thumbsup:

Still.....paper plates?

Mathman · Sep 29, 2016

All I can say is, anyone who doesn't appreciate the inherent fun in skating on paper plates, has never been a kindergarten teacher.

TGee · Sep 29, 2016

Trying not to go too far OT....

Mathman there's a really solid science answer to your question about the paper plates... It's great for kids to have fun being active always, but school based physical education needs, according to the experts in several countries, to ensure that kids get the physical literacy they need to be able to enjoy staying active into adulthood. So it is a health concern down the line.

To me, the comments sounded more like a self-depreciating wince from US posters who are sincerely concerned that there is a gap in your structure and curriculum. And that without teaching the fundamental movement skills needed for skating, it will be inaccessible for life.

Here's a Canadian take on physical literacy....my understanding is that it parallels views in the UK....But I can't say that ministers of health or sport and recreation at all levels have convinced their education colleagues...

Physical Literacy

Physical literacy is the cornerstone of both participation and excellence in physical activity and sport. Individuals who are physically literate are more likely to be active for life.

Becoming physically literate is influenced by the individual's age, maturation and capacity.
Ideally, supporting the development of physical literacy should be a major focus prior to the adolescent growth spurt.
The skills that make up physical literacy vary by location and culture, and depend on how much importance a society places on certain activities.

Physically literate individuals:

Demonstrate a wide variety of basic human movements, fundamental movement skills and fundamental sports skills.
Move with poise, confidence, competence and creativity in different physical environments (on the ground, both indoor and outdoor; in the air; in and on water; on snow and ice).
Develop the motivation and ability to understand, communicate, apply and analyze different forms of movement.
Make choices that engage them in physical activity, recreation or sport activities that enhance their physical and psychological wellness, and permit them to pursue sport excellence commensurate with their ability and motivation.

http://canadiansportforlife.ca/ten-key-factors/physical-literacy

Mathman · Sep 29, 2016

^ http://handsonaswegrow.com/paper-plate-skating/

bosskil · Sep 29, 2016

Mathman said:
Good for us! Surely the "health and fitness of all Americans" is more important than some silly medals.

Aren't you one of the most obese countries in the world, while having 3 richest sport leagues on the planet?
Looks like "the council" is doing some fine managing.

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 29, 2016

bosskil said:
Aren't you one of the most obese countries in the world, while having 3 richest sport leagues on the planet?
Looks like "the council" is doing some fine managing.

It's because of drive-thru burger joints!! Maybe if we could convince people to turn their cheeseburger wrappers into some sort of excercise apparatus we could see an improvement.

bosskil · Sep 29, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
It's because of drive-thru burger joints!! Maybe if we could convince people to turn their cheeseburger wrappers into some sort of excercise apparatus we could see an improvement.

Future might be brighter with this one.

Ladies skating 2018 and beyond

noidont

sarama

andromache

drivingmissdaisy

moriel

moriel

TGee

hippomoomin

concorde

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

TGee

bosskil

Match Penalty

Mathman

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Mathman

TGee

Mathman

bosskil

Match Penalty

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

bosskil

Match Penalty

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