Long Program: Too Loooooong?

I love watching events live and half the fun is commenting (probably too much in my case) with everyone here at GS. I've noticed though over the last four years that my resolve to watch the SP from start to finish is as strong as ever but I just can't bring myself to watch everyone's FS. It's just too long in most events and I'm starting to wonder if a different format might improve the sport. I've seen discussion about the ISU changing the format and even dropping the SP. I'm not feeling it. In fact I wonder what everyone's thoughts are.

I'd love to see three shorter programs myself. The first event could be the SP as we know it followed by a 1:30 artistic program featuring only one jump that they all would do but just steps and creative choreography for the most part. Then I'd like a 3 minute program that featured 5 jumping passes and a reduction of PCS value.

Anyone else think the FS is too long or am I on my own island here? Can you watch entire events or is it too time consuming? Are three shorter programs, even though about the same amount of total ice time, more enjoyable?

Any input is greatly appreciated and maybe someone can return me to my former self who would request world's off and watch every minute....regardless of the hour.

I'm not expecting a major ISU change or anything..just looking for a discussion on people's feelings about the Long Program.

After the last JGP and watching 35 FS, i must agree. Long program is too long.

An option, imho, would be cutting more people - for example, have just 10-15 skaters advance to FS on international competitions. Lets say 10 at GPs and such, and 15 at major competitions like europeans / 4cc / worlds (there are more higher level skaters, so it makes top 15 pretty fine to watch usually).

Usually about 15 LPs is my limit. The top 15 of most major competitions have interesting enough LP's to sit through. (generalizing of course) 35 is way too many. :giveup:

35 FS is indeed too long, but so far I was ok with the four warmup groups in worlds and olympics. The 12 in GP appeared rather short for me. A field size of 18-24 seems still feasible and would also give more skaters a chance to redeem themselves from a bad SP. I will never forget how Mao raised from 16th in the SP to 3rd in the FS in Sochi.

lol... i prefer watching the LPs but i never watch more than 12 or so... 18 in big events... sometimes only 4-5 in b events

I'm to the point now that I just read the comment section afterwards and then choose based on the GS forum reactions which FS programs to watch. :handw:

lol... then do you watch the wuzrobbed ones or the winners?

Sam-Skwantch said:

I'm to the point now that I just read the comment section afterwards and then choose based on the GS forum reactions which FS programs to watch. :handw:

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It's the predictable, repetitive nature of Long Programs these days. The rules should change rather than the time allotment.

4everchan said:

lol... then do you watch the wuzrobbed ones or the winners?

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Depends on who I want to argue with

The ISU is dropping one jump from the FS so the FS will be shorter. However I think what you want is a bit more out there. Hearkening back a bit to the old ice dance format, almost. How they still do it in novice and pre-novice these days. Costs might go up for three different programs and costumes. And less people may tune in or even skip the artistic event.

There were proposals at the isu council to have worlds split into A and B.

An idea that i have in my mind is this
Use the season Ranking results to decide 75% of the spots and use 4CC\Euros to find the remaining- whilst keeping nation quotas in mind.
The main championship (A) start with four full groups for the SP and cut one group after the SP
E.g.
Mens and womens start with 24 top Top 18 progress
Pairs start with 16 top 12 progress
Ice Dance start with 20 top 15 progress.

The remaining skaters would compete in a separate, smaller B event- each nation that does not qualify a skater in the A championship in a discipline can send one representative to that event for that discipline.

Of course this is expensive, but we need to think outside the box and be more ruthless. I think they have to be less fair to smaller sking nations when it comes to the big skating events.

A nice topic here !! ^^ I remember myself actually waiting for almost 5 hours so the last group of Juniors , back in Ljubliana , to come and that was really frustrating and tiring. Well , however , i think that having only the top 18 or 24 in the FS would be very eliting , IMO. Meaning , that in sports you need to see not only the elite groups but all the other groups that are trying. Dont forget that even the girls whom combination score maybe lower than sp score of their teamates have actually been first at their nationals not only because they are the only one who skates in their country ( e.g. Cyprus ) BUT because the level of skating training is too low . As for seniors , i usually watch the last group in the FS , i admit that. Or possibly the third one too where you can see many talents in their beggining of their career ( for example Tursynbaeva ) or skaters who are having a great comeback ( bbut low PCS ranked them from the sp to the 3rd group ) or just skaters who improved but not that much to be in the elite 4th group. I think that the magic of sports is to see this versatility. As a fan , of course i enjoy seeing the best programms and cheers for skaters that have clean programms , but i appreciate the same those who are trying and who , in many times , have something that you cannot find in the elite groups. For example Lozkos spins , Pitkeevs artistry ( who is now improving in the tech scores too ) and so many other examples that now i cannot bring into my head.
The only thiing i would recomend is puting a limit for those who can get to FS. I think that at seniors 4 groups it is ok . Really. It is about 2 or 2 and a hal hour of pure sports magic for me ! As for the juniors , yep 35 are a lot but for some of those skaters there are only these two big events to skate their FS. So what i do when i am tired sometimes is skip one group and being live streamed in another group. AND , i would like to see more in the Grand prix Final as well as in Grand prixs both in the juniors and Seniors. 6 is too little for me and so many talented skaters for only 6 spots out there. There will be an era where those 6 spots will be only by japaneses and russians ( as it gonna be right now , however in one or two years we gonna have korean girls as well ) and why not only russians in ALL the 6 spots

3 programms would be a lot. And expensive too. I like the competition in the FS. It is hard and it shows who from this skaters has actually all the package ( and for the main reason GOOD STAMINA !! --> see young you <3 hahaha)
Thats my opinion ^_^

Blades of Passion said:

It's the predictable, repetitive nature of Long Programs these days. The rules should change rather than the time allotment.

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Pretty much everything about figure skating needs to change and most of those changes needed to occur decades ago. And because that didn't happen, the sport is now on life support in most countries (Japan being the notable exception).

It's really a shame because its uniqueness makes it an excellent candidate for becoming a very popular niche sport.

If you're watching the whole event ( for 3 hours or something) then it's too much. I'm watching only my favorites and sometimes the long program is not long enough

Interesting reactions so far, as I am the total opposite.

I can lose myself in art for hours and days, it does not bother me in the slightest, as everyone brings something new to the table. I love to analyse every bit of someone elses work, it´s what I do for more than 15 years now in music and if the transition works, I would love to do the same for another 30 in sports.

That being said, what Sam mentioned is not very uncommon these days. Movies have become shorter often leaving out side story lines and introductions, sports has been cut and therefore made less accessible for exotic countries, music went down from the oldschool 12 minute track length with true progression into just releasing a main theme of 2-3 minutes tops. It´s what our society has come to, it all needs to be over quick, nobody seems to find the patience to fully enjoy something these days.

For me, the development is quite worrying, but everyone feels different there I guess.

At FS, I often sit at the ice rink from 6-7AM until late at night, watching each skater and all practice, it´s fun for me, I take notes and chat with skaters or coaches, but I understand everyone who does not have the patience for it or the "chance" as many sports event´s for non members, have become like Fort Nox with high security so that especially during the long breaks, a visitor might re-consider if it´s worth to stay another 2 hours or show up early on if the favorites skate late.

Regarding the starting fields, honestly... the current GP format, is not very good for me, as I find it a little bit empty if only top skaters attend it and I would find it sad, if such a format could spread to other competitions, as it will make FS an even less popular sport in many nations.
To devide skaters in "A you are good and skate prime time" and "B you are bad and skate when nobody will watch" is also not very advicable, we need to boost the sport and support it and not cut it down even further. No TV station will ever show the B comp... it will be like at tennis, where WTA is prime and everywhere, while ITF is nowhere, except for FedCup and Olympics.

The GP system is one of the most popular with worlds and olympics, yet most skaters & nations will never be there. That´s just silly if you ask me, it´s like an exclusive club. We spoke about Ladies 2018+ and let´s be honest, if we make it even harder for skaters to promote their sport in future, then we might indeed end up with only NA, Russia, Korea and Japan in a few years.

I also always enjoyed the qualification round 1 at FS, as last seen at Bern (me thinks?). But, it´s too heavy for the skaters, to have three skates, so I understand it was removed - but it also killed the chance to skate at Euroes for many.

I think is the reason TV audiences tend to tune out - 4+ minutes per person is too long and then you atill have to wait for the scores!

If there is a way to shorten the programs and have instanteous scoring, I think skating would increase in popularity since more people would watch it. But how you go about that, I have no idea.

Good thread idea!

I don't think the long programs are too long at all. And from reading the answers above, people are already selecting and watching only the programs and skaters they are interested in, so changing the length of LP even by a minute wouldn't change that.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I'd love to see three shorter programs myself. The first event could be the SP as we know it followed by a 1:30 artistic program featuring only one jump that they all would do but just steps and creative choreography for the most part. Then I'd like a 3 minute program that featured 5 jumping passes and a reduction of PCS value.

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I really like this idea since I'm down for a program division that actually differentiates what is prioritized from program to program - since the SP and LP now are too similar, IMO. As for the LP being too long...for the vast majority of skaters, yeah, I'll only pay half-attention to the too-long LPs. But the elites are just great, some of them I am sad when the LP is over!

And I'd be sad to lose a chance for "narrative" programs like Ashley's Moulin Rouge, for example. Plus, one of the physical/athletic tests of the LP is the stamina required to perform it well. No LP would take that aspect away.

So basically there are pros and cons.

This is an interesting discussion. Thanks for starting it Sam-Skwantch.

If true fans can't watch it all, perhaps it's too much. I find myself sampling because I know I can get the individual videos. But lately, I've been forcing myself to wait and watch the whole feed bit by bit. And find I enjoy it more.

But seeing the extensive coverage of curling and other technical sports here, I'm wondering if much of the problem is the way it's covered. Commentators in North America aren't really able to teach viewers how the judging system works. But they can do it for other sports that are equally as complex. The kind of tracking stats on likelihood of successfully landing a jump are difficult to find on any public English language site. But they're the bread and butter of analysis for other sports. Other sports fill in floods and breaks between periods with analysis and debate. And it draws large audiences.

For viewers who just want to enjoy the performance, technical critiques are an interruption. I accept this. But I wonder if this is mainly the older NA audience and not the younger fans. For the fans, there isn't the opportunity to see the jumps or footwork we'd need to see to understand the decisions. The standard replay may or may not include the critical elements....

But there is IMO the need to be able to see the field, and the suspense of waiting to see how a favourite will do is part of the experience. The main network coverage is reluctant to do that for many sports. I also watch some low audience sports such as some of the specialty disciplines in track and field. High jump, for example, really only makes sense if you watch the whole competition, but even the track and field live streams usually just cut back and forth.

Last point. I'm reluctant to attribute declining audiences to format issues at all. While many of the fans on GS seem not to have been as affected by this, IMO the chilling impact of the judging scandals cannot be underestimated.

Myself, I stopped watching any figure skating at all. That's right...I went from someone who had skated, gone to local shows to support local clubs wherever I was, and even sat through the early days of the pro competitions and the experimentation with different pro judging systems, and then stopped watching absolutely. If I hadn't felt that learning to skate was an essential social/cultural activity where we live and that our children needed to get the basics a good club, I never would have looking at a skating event again.

The problem these days is the concentration. Smart phones, computers, TV ect. shortens the attention span. I always had this problem, for example i like to read books, but i'm soooo slow in reading, bc i can't stay focused for more than 5 minutes. That's why i only watch my favorites, when it comes to sport, bc i'm easily bored :sad46: