Who has the highest BV of Men's SP and LP? | Golden Skate

Who has the highest BV of Men's SP and LP?

da96103

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Start with SP.
We have 4 men who has NTNS quad in their SP.
Nathan Chen (4Lz, 4F)
Boyang Jin (4Lz)
Shoma Uno (4F)
Yuzuru Hanyu (4Lo)
and two men who does not have NTNS quad and is representative of the rest of the men.
Javier Fernandez (two quad SP)
Patrick Chan (one quad SP)

Just totalling the two non-triple axel jumps' BV: the solo jump and the first jump of the combo. (assuming the other elements are not going to make much of a difference in the BV)
Nathan Chen (4Lz, 4F) = 13.6 + 12.3 = 25.9 [0.0]
Boyang Jin (4Lz, 4T) = 13.6 + 10.3 = 23.6 [-2.3]
Yuzuru Hanyu (4Lo, 4S) = 12.0 + 10.5 = 22.5 9 [-3.4]
Javier Fernandez (4S, 4T) = 10.5 + 10.3 = 20.8 [-5.1]
Shoma Uno (4F, 4T) = 12.3 + 10.3 = 22.6 -2.8 (because Shoma only tags 2T) = 19.8 [-6.1]
Patrick Chan (4T, 3Lz) = 10.3 + 6.0 = 16.3 [-9.6]

Now looking at LP
(in addition to the quad jumps, everyone except Nathan does two 3A. The 3S is used as a replacement for the jump that could have been the 4th quad for those who only jumped 3 quads)
Nathan Chen (5 quads + one 3A)
Boyang Jin (4 quads + two 3A)
Yuzuru Hanyu (4 quads + two 3A)
Javier Fernandez (3 quads + two 3A)
Shoma Uno (3 quads + two 3A)
Patrick Chan (3 quads + two 3A)

Totalling up the BV
Nathan Chen (4Lz, 4F, 4S, 4T, 4T minus one 3A) = 13.6 + 12.3 + 10.5 + 10.3 + 10.3 – 8.1 = 48.9 [0.0]
Boyang Jin (4Lz, 4S, 4S, 4T) = 13.6 + 10.5 + 10.5 + 10.3 = 44.9 [-4.0]
Yuzuru Hanyu (4Lo, 4S, 4S, 4T) = 12.0 + 10.5 + 10.5 + 10.3 = 43.3 [-5.6]
Shoma Uno (4F, 4F, 4T + 3S) = 12.3 + 12.3 + 10.3 + 4.2 = 39.1 [-9.8]
Javier Fernandez (4S, 4S, 4T + 3S) = 10.5 + 10.5 + 10.3 + 4.2 = 35.5 [-13.4]
Patrick Chan (4S, 4T, 4T + 3S) = 10.5 + 10.3 + 10.3 + 4.2 = 35.3 [-13.6]

Note: This is only a rough estimate because there are other factors not taken in: Nathan's 2nd repeated jump is 3T, variation in the combos, etc.
 
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mcq

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Nathan has the biggest BV among men, both SP and LP

Shoma planned layout in the SP should have him attaching the 3T instead of 2T.
Not factoring in the 10% in the second half would be significant to the BV calculation too.

BV wise in SP : Nathan > Boyang > Yuzuru/Shoma > Javier > Patrick
BV wise in FS : Nathan > Boyang > Yuzuru > Shoma > Javier > Patrick
 

da96103

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Nathan has the biggest BV among men, both SP and LP

Shoma planned layout in the SP should have him attaching the 3T instead of 2T.
Not factoring in the 10% in the second half would be significant to the BV calculation too.

BV wise in SP : Nathan > Boyang > Yuzuru/Shoma > Javier > Patrick
BV wise in FS : Nathan > Boyang > Yuzuru > Shoma > Javier > Patrick

That's right. Thanks. That would take more referencing on the existing protocols of the skaters. Let's wait for them to actually land these programs properly.
 

Marin

"Efforts tell lies, but it will not be in vain."
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Actually didn't Nathan say that 5 quads were improvisation at FT and his plan is 4 quads in LP?
 

mcq

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
That's right. Thanks. That would take more referencing on the existing protocols of the skaters. Let's wait for them to actually land these programs properly.

Yep. This will also depend on the actual layout. Not sure what the planned layout for Boyang is and I assume Nathan yolo-ed his 4S and it was supposed to be a 4-quad LP program

For the LP, if Nathan went for 5 quads, his BV will be 108-ish (OMG, i know), not sure if it is reduced to 4, should be 102-103-ish. Boyang will be 103.7, assuming same layout as last year; Yuzuru will be 103.43, Shoma will be 97ish; Javier and Patrick (with a quad sal added)should be 95ish.

EDIT : Assuming all level 4 ofc
 
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4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
not sure I quite follow some of the OP's reasoning here as for instance, if I look at Patrick's layout, once the 4S is in, there won't be room for a 3S.... guys who use 4 quads could do it in various ways, for instance removing one 3A which isn't really that advantageous if the skater only has two quads or like those 3 guys who have 3 different quads, keeping 2 3A.

Also, many other guys are left out here. For instance and to mention only a couple, doesn't Kovtun have two quads in SP and then 3 in LP?

Kevin Reynolds has two quads in SP and does 4 in LP with 1 3axel.

Finally, those are only jumps base value. If Nathan wins a lots of points with his jumps, he lost pretty much the value of a jump with low levels on spins and steps in the LP at finlandia.... and of course, he lost a full quad in negative GOE and deductions.

Perhaps it would be better to revisit this thread when layouts are confirmed around GPF time. A guy like Nathan could decide that 5 or even 4 is too many. Even Yuzu could decide that the 4Loop is demanding him too much and stick to 3 instead of 4 quads...

Patrick could remove his 4S if it's not steady or au contraire, decide to add it to the SP as well.
 

TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
I'm sorry if this is a silly question, but what's NTNS?
 

4everchan

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Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Non-Toe/Non-Salchow is my guess.

But the OP is the first time I had ever seen "NTNS" as an abbreviation.

thanks, after reading now, it makes sense and explains also why I mentioned Toe and Salchow boys in my post as I didn't get that for the OP Patrick and Kovtun are just about the same ;)
 

da96103

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
not sure I quite follow some of the OP's reasoning here as for instance, if I look at Patrick's layout, once the 4S is in, there won't be room for a 3S.... guys who use 4 quads could do it in various ways, for instance removing one 3A which isn't really that advantageous if the skater only has two quads or like those 3 guys who have 3 different quads, keeping 2 3A.

Also, many other guys are left out here. For instance and to mention only a couple, doesn't Kovtun have two quads in SP and then 3 in LP?

Kevin Reynolds has two quads in SP and does 4 in LP with 1 3axel.

Finally, those are only jumps base value. If Nathan wins a lots of points with his jumps, he lost pretty much the value of a jump with low levels on spins and steps in the LP at finlandia.... and of course, he lost a full quad in negative GOE and deductions.

Perhaps it would be better to revisit this thread when layouts are confirmed around GPF time. A guy like Nathan could decide that 5 or even 4 is too many. Even Yuzu could decide that the 4Loop is demanding him too much and stick to 3 instead of 4 quads...

Patrick could remove his 4S if it's not steady or au contraire, decide to add it to the SP as well.

Good points all. I was just curious to estimate just how far is Nathan Chen's BV from Patrick's BV in the LP. A gross estimate is just -13.6 which is not insurmountable if we were to compare PC v NC because Nathan has small GOE and small PCS.

If we compare Yuzuru's BV and Patrick's BV, it is -8.0 which is actually more difficult for Patrick to overcome because it is Yuzu with big GOE and big PCS.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Good points all. I was just curious to estimate just how far is Nathan Chen's BV from Patrick's BV in the LP. A gross estimate is just -13.6 which is not insurmountable if we were to compare PC v NC because Nathan has small GOE and small PCS.

If we compare Yuzuru's BV and Patrick's BV, it is -8.0 which is actually more difficult for Patrick to overcome because it is Yuzu with big GOE and big PCS.

true to a certain point.

for instance, at Finlandia, Patrick made what I dared call a tiny mistake ;) but cost him victory, at least in the LP.... he had a scratchy first 4T which he usually tags 3T on... then, he perhaps (not in his head but it looked like he was thinking) thought too much about making the second 4t into a combo... well he did something he rarely does UR/ fall on the second quad toe... he lost a HUGE amount of point just there which would have given him the lead.... HOWEVER, he could have recuperated by adding the 3T after the 3Lz... probably thought too much about it... scratchy landing on 3Lz... he probably then thought... okay... here's my chance... after the 3Flip.. .but thinking and stamina he doubled the flip ;) so this is the kind of tiny mistake, a scratchy landing on the first jumping pass, that had an impact on the whole program, and not only cost him a full 3T at 4.3 but also cost him his second quad to be penalized (COMBO) and a bunch of other silly mistakes.

So : in light of that, I am very careful when looking at base values, especially in the LP as there are a lot of variables. If for instance Yuzu or anyone else pops a quad, from the guys who have NTNS :) quads they need some thinking, if they want to keep a high base value. We have looked at Yuzuru's layout which is pretty much zayak safe at this point, but if it is zayak safe, it doesn't mean that his base value will remain as high if there's one scratchy landing that prevents him from tagging a combo as tagging them later is often difficult, why I used Patrick as an example here.

Anyways, it's okay to speculate about what can happen on the ice but it's much more exciting to watch it in real time :)
 
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