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Chinese names

luckyguy

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Are the names Chen (Karen and Nathan), Chan (Patrick) and Zhang (Caroline) different or identical in mandarin?
 

CaroLiza_fan

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Are the names Chen (Karen and Nathan), Chan (Patrick) and Zhang (Caroline) different or identical in mandarin?

This was discussed in another thread a few months ago. (Give me a moment to see if I can find it)

Chen, Chan and Tran are all different transliterations of the same Chinese name.

Chen has been transliterated via Mandarin.
Chan has been transliterated via Cantonese.
Tran has been transliterated via Vietnamese.

Zhang is a different name (if I remember correctly).

CaroLiza_fan
 

Sunny Little

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Dec 29, 2014
Chen and Chan are the same in most cases, which is "陈"; their English forms may differ depending on how it is pronounced in the Chinese dialect. Zhang is a completely different surname, written as "张" in Chinese. Again, depending on the dialect, it can also appear as Chong.

Sorry if my explanation is confusing, English isn't my first language.
 
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acronycal0730

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Nov 23, 2014
Chen (Karen and Nathan), Chan (Patrick) are both 陳.

Zhang (Caroline) is 張, which sometimes also spelled "Chang".
 

CaroLiza_fan

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Sunny Little

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Here's a slightly related fun fact (because I am an overly-enthusiastic linguistic major :slink:): Cantonese, Hokkien and Hakka are usually considered as Chinese dialects, but from a linguistic point of view, they are separate languages.

Dialects are defined by linguists as mutually intelligible forms of a language. In other words, people speaking the dialects of the same language are supposed to be able to understand one another. However, a Mandarin speaker would not understand what a Hokkien speaker is saying without learning Hokkien first, so they are technically different languages. :)
 

da96103

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Feb 13, 2014
Conventionally, people who have the same Chinese surname has ancestors who had originated from the same village in China.

So even though Patrick is from Canada and Karen and Nathan are from US, their ancestors probably once lived in the same city/town/village in China.

Older Chinese people used to frown if two people with the same Chinese surname want to get married with each other even if they are several generations born in a new country. In fact it is quite rare for husband and wife to have the same Chinese surname. I don't know about Chinese immigrants in other countries.
 
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Sunny Little

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Conventionally, people who have the same Chinese surname has ancestors who had originated from the same village in China.

So even though Patrick is from Canada and Karen and Nathan are from US, their ancestors probably once lived in the same city/town/village in China.

Older Chinese people used to frown if two people with the same Chinese surname wants to get married with each other even if they are several generations born in a new country. In fact it is quite rare for husband and wife to have the same Chinese surname. I don't know about Chinese immigrants in other countries.

I know people who are still bothered by married couples who share the same surname, and they're not exactly old. :laugh:
 

da96103

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Feb 13, 2014
Here's a slightly related fun fact (because I am an overly-enthusiastic linguistic major :slink:): Cantonese, Hokkien and Hakka are usually considered as Chinese dialects, but from a linguistic point of view, they are separate languages.

Dialects are defined by linguists as mutually intelligible forms of a language. In other words, people speaking the dialects of the same language are supposed to be able to understand one another. However, a Mandarin speaker would not understand what a Hokkien speaker is saying without learning Hokkien first, so they are technically different languages. :)

Is it true that Mandarin was actually a dialect as well and has the same status as other dialects but was chosen as the official language of China?

I think it is a good choice. Mandarin language sounds more pleasing compared to other dialects. My own dialect sounds like people arguing when they are actually having a normal conversation.
 

CaroLiza_fan

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Conventionally, people who have the same Chinese surname has ancestors who had originated from the same village in China.

So even though Patrick is from Canada and Karen and Nathan are from US, their ancestors probably once lived in the same city/town/village in China.

Patrick's family is from Hong Kong (as is Michelle Kwan's). Hence the transliteration based on the Cantonese pronounciation.

Nathan and Karen's families are from Taiwan. Hence the transliteration based on the Mandarin pronounciation.

But, it is entirely possible that if you go back far enough, that their family lines will converge somewhere in between.

Older Chinese people used to frown if two people with the same Chinese surname wants to get married with each other even if they are several generations born in a new country. In fact it is quite rare for husband and wife to have the same Chinese surname. I don't know about Chinese immigrants in other countries.

Very intersting. Thank you for telling us that.

My Mum's sister married a man with the same surname (they are from different parts of the province, though - she's from East Tyrone, while he is from Jenna McCorkell's hometown of Coleraine).

So, if they had been Chinese, the marriage would have been frowned on.

Good job they aren't, then! :agree:

CaroLiza_fan
 
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da96103

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I know people who are still bothered by married couples who share the same surname, and they're not exactly old. :laugh:

I think it is some cultural things that are pass down by Chinese people even if they have immigrated far far away.

Just like you should not open umbrellas indoors and stand under it because ghosts will reside under an opened indoor umbrella.
 
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da96103

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What about Li and Lee? Are they from the same origin?

You need to go back to the actual Chinese word that is the surname. I know Li and Lee can be from actually two different surnames. The most common is 李.

A search on wikipedia

List of surnames romanized as Li or Lee
Lǐ 李 (3rd tone), the 2nd most common surname in China, shared by 100 million people worldwide. The character also means "plum". Commonly spelled as Lee in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and many other overseas Chinese communities. It is pronounced as "Lei" in Cantonese. In Vietnam, it is spelled as "Lý", not to be confused with "Lê".
Lǐ 理 (3rd tone), the original form of Lǐ 李, now rare. The character also means "reason" or "judge".
Lí 黎 (2nd tone), the 84th most common surname in China. "Lai" or "Lye" in Cantonese. The character also means "dark".
Lì 栗 (4th tone), the 249th most common surname in China. "Leut" in Cantonese. The character also means "chestnut".
Lì 利 (4th tone), the 299th most common surname in China. The character also means "sharp", "benefit", "profit", or "interest".
Lì 厲/厉 (4th tone). "Lai" in Cantonese. The character also means "strict" or "severe".
Lì 酈/郦 (4th tone). "Lik" in Cantonese. The character is exclusively used in proper names and has no other meaning.
Lì 莉 (4th tone), a rare surname of the Hui people. The character also means "jasmine".

So there are eight Chinese surnames that have been romanized to Li.

So always go back and ask the person what is the actual Chinese character of his/her surname.
 

CaroLiza_fan

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What about Li and Lee? Are they from the same origin?

In some cases.

Back in the old days, when immigrants arrived in their destination country, they would go to the immigration office for processing. And more often than not, the person filling in the forms would spell the names based on what they heard when the immigrants said their name.

Hence how we ended up with different spellings for the same original name.

And if Mathman comes across this conversation, he will explain his own family connection to this process.

But, as da96103 posted while I was writing this, Lee and Li can also be different names.

It can get very complicated!

CaroLiza_fan
 
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da96103

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I know people who are still bothered by married couples who share the same surname, and they're not exactly old. :laugh:

Lol, so if any of you has the intention to ship Nathan and Karen together. Stop! They have the same Chinese surname. Chinese people from all over the world would frown at that.
 

Sunny Little

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Is it true that Mandarin was actually a dialect as well and has the same status as other dialects but was chosen as the official language of China?

I think it is a good choice. Mandarin language sounds more pleasing compared to other dialects. My own dialect sounds like people arguing when they are actually having a normal conversation.

Yes, it is but then I think they had a vote because there are just too many dialects in China. Can't remember the exact details though.

And I agree Mandarin is easier on the ears. :agree: What's your dialect? I'm guessing Hakka or Hokkien based on your description (mine is the latter). Though Cantonese speakers also sound like they want to pick a fight with you sometimes.

(Going soooo off topic here, we need a language-related thread in the cafe :p)
 

da96103

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In some cases.

Back in the old days, when immigrants arrived in their destination country, they would go to the immigration office for processing. And more often than not, the person filling in the forms would spell the names based on what they heard when the immigrants said their name.

Hence how we ended up with different spellings for the same original name.


And if Mathman comes across this conversation, he will explain his own family connection to this process.

But, as da96103 posted while I was writing this, Lee and Li can also be different names.

It can get very complicated!

CaroLiza_fan

Each Chinese sound has four tones. For example Li, Li, Li, Li. (this makes no sense when written down but someone who knows Mandarin would read out the 4 Li's in different tones automatically)

But when romanized it is all Li.

The pinyin way of writing has a small symbol above the romanized word to represent the four tones.

1st tone is a horizontal line.
2nd tone is similar to the french accent ague (upwards diagonal)
3rd tone is an V shape
4th tone is similar to the the french accent grave (downwards diagonal)
 

da96103

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Yes, it is but then I think they had a vote because there are just too many dialects in China. Can't remember the exact details though.

And I agree Mandarin is easier on the ears. :agree: What's your dialect? I'm guessing Hakka or Hokkien based on your description (mine is the latter). Though Cantonese speakers also sound like they want to pick a fight with you sometimes.

(Going soooo off topic here, we need a language-related thread in the cafe :p)

Mine is Foochow. My parents used Foochow when they speak to each other. But they use Mandarin when speaking to us (my siblings and I). I can understand Foochow but hopeless in speaking in it. It sounds really rough and loud.
 

largeman

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Fun fact that no one has mentioned yet: Tiffany Chin's surname is also the same Chinese character as Chen and Chan. Chin is the transliteration in Toisanese, the dialect spoken in Toisan County in Guangdong Province (where Cantonese is the main dialect). Yes, Tiffany Chin's and Patrick Chan's families have the same surname and emigrated from the same province in China, yet they pronounce their surname differently. :laugh:

Folks who frequent the Baidu forums will know that Chinese figure skating fans have assigned nicknames to the "North American Chen brothers & sisters" as follows: Tiffany Chin is the eldest sister, Patrick Chan is "Two Qun" (Qun is part of his Chinese name), Nathan is "Little Three," and Karen is "Fourth Sister." :coffee:
 
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CaroLiza_fan

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Each Chinese sound has four tones. For example Li, Li, Li, Li. (this makes no sense when written down but someone who knows Mandarin would read out the 4 Li's in different tones automatically)

But when romanized it is all Li.

The pinyin way of writing has a small symbol above the romanized word to represent the four tones.

1st tone is a horizontal line.
2nd tone is similar to the french accent ague (upwards diagonal)
3rd tone is an V shape
4th tone is similar to the the french accent grave (downwards diagonal)

Now that you mention that, I remember watching a series a month or so ago where motorbike racer Guy Martin was travelling around China. And in one of the programmes, his translator attempted to explain the 4 tones to him. And he was completely lost! (As were we!)

By the way, off topic, but the man that developed the pinyin system died last week. He was 111 years old! :shocked:

Talk about good innings!

CaroLiza_fan
 
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