Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

I was lucky to watch the ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships in Gangeung. The competition was wonderful but I have some concerns regarding the PCS score of the Men’s Free Skate.

According to the ISU guidelines, PCS is judged by: ss (skating skills) / tr (transitions) / pe (performance/execution) / ch (choreography) / in (interpretation).

But Nathan Chen’s PCS is clearly overscored in comparison to the marks of other skaters.

His SS: skating speed is slow, unsmooth, very immature. But he receives an average of 9?

His TR: transition is simple and even without transition during many sections of the program. But he got an average of 8.7?

His PE: Can I say he was expressionless? And where is the 8.9 coming from?

His CH: very vague, no clear subject and poor in details. And he got an average of 8.9

His IN: the body movement is very stiff and out of sync with music yet the mark he got is an average of 8.9!

But Nathan was awarded with 88.86 PCS, while the scores for Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Jason Brown, Misha Ge were 94.34, 92.58, 85.72 and 76, respectively. His score is inflated considering the performance and scores from the other skaters at the competition.

I know Nathan Chen is only 17 but skaters should be judged by their skills and performance not by experience or age. In my opinion, he is a jumper not a skater and his awful skating should not be rewarded with those ridiculous marks. If the judges keep throwing huge scores to these kind of skates, it will cause unfairness and unfortunate damage to this sport. After all, we paid the very expensive tickets to attend the events to watch Figure Skating NOT Figure JUMPING!

I urge the ISU can take action into this matter and ensure the Evaluation Criteria of PCS is adhered to the guideline and not based on the number of Quadruple jumps.

Freya&Kitty

I do think the PCS scores were a bit of an issue on some skaters. I was finding it hard to see how the judges came up with some scores. I really dont think Nathan's was a problem though. He isn't like Boyang who has A LOT of work do to PCS wise. I think Nathan is a pretty decent skater. He has good speed and transitions. Obviously he's not as polished as Chan, and Hanyu etc but I dont think his scores were over rated too terribly much. Hanyu did score 6 points more than Chen for PCS. I would of maybe adjusted it to a 7 or 8 point margin at most. I do think it was raining marks though in this event in general so I think the scores for worlds might come down a bit for some.

Welcome to the forum, Shinekitty, and thanks for posting.

This has been discussed quite a bit, especially with regard to the point that if you do a lot of quads then you will automatically get fairly high PCSs, too, whether deserved or not.

Personally I am not dismayed that Nathan Chen's PCSs were not so far behind Hanyu and Chan. If Hanyu and Chan had been technically perfect their PCSs would have been in the high nines, maybe a full point above Nathan Chen's, which to me is about right.

IMHO the only top skater who does not get a break is Bo-yang Jin. I don't know why. Maybe Nathan is better, but I think it should be something like Jin, 85, Chen 87.5, Hanyu and Chan 97.5, if everyone skates cleanly.

Worlds will certainly be interesting, with Javier Fernandez also in the mix.

Mathman said:

Welcome to the forum, Shinekitty, and thanks for posting.

This has been discussed quite a bit, especially with regard to the point that if you do a lot of quads then you will automatically get fairly high PCSs, too, whether deserved or not.

Personally I am not dismayed that Nathan Chen's PCSs were not so far behind Hanyu and Chan. If Hanyu and Chan had been technically perfect their PCSs would have been in the high nines, maybe a full point above Nathan Chen's, which to me is about right.

IMHO the only top skater who does not get a break is Bo-yang Jin. I don't know why. Maybe Nathan is better, but I think it should be something like Jin, 85, Chen 87.5, Hanyu and Chan 97.5, if everyone skates cleanly.

Worlds will certainly be interesting, with Javier Fernandez also in the mix.

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But this is exactly the kind of thinking that irks me.... Is Chan less of a good skater if he falls on a jump? Look at his constant speed and refinement, his clear integration of all elements into a beautiful program. His musical interpretation from the blade to the fingertip? Is Hanyu less of a good skater if he pops a quad salchow, which honestly he made up for in other ways later in the program?

I am very thrilled with what Nathan brings to the game. But skating cleanly or not, if it does have an impact on performance and execution, shouldn't have such an effect on other components. The judging of PCS becomes more or less TES if it is more or less matching how many quads are landed.

This has been reflected in clean programs too.

GPF : Patrick Chan skates a very beautiful and clean program,yet doesn't score over 100.... Only one quad... Do not tell me he would get there on TES with two quads... that's not the point. His PCS were low for a clean program... not the 97.5 you would suggest ( that would be pretty much 49 in a SP... did he get that? NOPE) His PCS will remain lower than Javi's or Hanyu's if these guys, who are considered by the judges as equivalent on the PCS side of things, execute two quads.

I am sorry but that's just a wrong way to judge.

I am an advocate that figure skating is a sport first, but yet, an entertaining one where personality of performing athletes can touch and move.

Figure skating itself says we are half sport- half performing art... that's why PCS (or artistic impression) exist. So, why is adding a quad translating in higher PCS?

I repeat...

do we want quaddity over quality?

In the end, everyone is losing. I believe Nathan has a great future and that he will develop as a great all-around skater. I have this hope. But giving him such high PCS from the get go, is not helping the sport.

Did he deserve to win 4CC? Absolutely IMHO. Is the scoring all over the place ? Absolutely as well.

My coach and technically all people at my rink said: "Nathan Chen's scores is the combination of jumps with scary landings and USFA's influence."

I agree with 4reverchan, giving Mr Chen such scores at this point does not help this sport in general. Young skaters will just look at their coaches and tell them shut up when they're being criticized for true quality.

I don't know if the Pandora's Box @ 2017 4CC is more on Nathan's PCS or GOE. Tough battle.

4everchan said:

But this is exactly the kind of thinking that irks me.... Is Chan less of a good skater if he falls on a jump?[/b

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To me, the program component scores are not about who is "the best skater" but rather about who gave the best skate.

If Patrick Chan or anyone else falls during his performance, that performance is not as excellent as it would have been be without the fall.

He may skate fast after he picks himself up off the ice. He may do a lot of transitions leading up to the jump that he falls on. He may shake off the fall and perform the rest of his program with aplomb and grace. He may do a praiseworthy job of getting back into the choreography and interpretation after a fall.

Still...skate great, get 10s in PCSs. Fall down, get 9.25s.

Where were all these people who are griping about Nathan's PCS when Yulia Lip was getting PCS almost has high as Carolina or Mao by the time of Europeans and the Olympics. I don't think a skater has ever had their PCS rise so fast in such a short amount of time over one season and it's not like she was some kind of great artist on the ice.

Jammers said:

Where were all these people who are griping about Nathan's PCS when Yulia Lip was getting PCS almost has high as Carolina or Mao by the time of Europeans and the Olympics. I don't think a skater has ever had their PCS rise so fast in such a short amount of time over one season and it's not like she was some kind of great artist on the ice.

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Believe it or not, human are shallow. Most humans are. When something happen at the right time with the right people, it goes up. Even if you don't like Miss Lipnitkaya's program, her red dress Lp has become iconic. General public will always remember her as such. It might be a curse for her, though. Life is that way.

Jammers said:

Where were all these people who are griping about Nathan's PCS when Yulia Lip was getting PCS almost has high as Carolina or Mao by the time of Europeans and the Olympics. I don't think a skater has ever had their PCS rise so fast in such a short amount of time over one season and it's not like she was some kind of great artist on the ice.

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Ignoring the fact that any comments about Julia have zero to do with the criticism towards Nathan being justified or not... Maybe I'm having weird hallucinations, but I remember quite a lot of criticism about Julia back than. She was having a more vocal fan base to equal it out, but she also got a lot of complains because of her marks. A lot.

Li'Kitsu said:

Ignoring the fact that any comments about Julia have zero to do with the criticism towards Nathan being justified or not... Maybe I'm having weird hallucinations, but I remember quite a lot of criticism about Julia back than. She was having a more vocal fan base to equal it out, but she also got a lot of complains because of her marks. A lot.

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Yes. She was attacked a lot, especially from North American fans. They opened many threads about how she's mimicking her way to medals. They also opened threads judging the way she would go through puberty. Poor little girl.
But to be fair, miss Lipnitkaya at least had many transitions.
Mr Chen has almost no noticeable transitions.

Li'Kitsu said:

Ignoring the fact that any comments about Julia have zero to do with the criticism towards Nathan being justified or not... Maybe I'm having weird hallucinations, but I remember quite a lot of criticism about Julia back than. She was having a more vocal fan base to equal it out, but she also got a lot of complains because of her marks. A lot.

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I had those same hallucinations...

Mathman said:

To me, the program component scores are not about who is "the best skater" but rather about who gave the best skate.

If Patrick Chan or anyone else falls during his performance, that performance is not as excellent as it would have been be without the fall.

He may skate fast after he picks himself up off the ice. He may do a lot of transitions leading up to the jump that he falls on. He may shake off the fall and perform the rest of his program with aplomb and grace. He may do a praiseworthy job of getting back into the choreography and interpretation after a fall.

Still...skate great, get 10s in PCSs. Fall down, get 9.25s.

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well that's where we end talking because i see the sport completely differently. Landing quads with no flow is also disruptive.... skating from one end to the ice and jump and then skating from the other end and jump is extremely boring too... I have seen that effect live at Canadian nationals and i was happy the pcs for that skater was lower despite the big jumps....

and at least, if you were right... if the skaters who do everything did go clean ended up with 10s, sure... but that's not the case either... you end up with 9.50 at the most for a skater like Patrick and then others who have more quads but less overall quality reach 9.... in the end, there is a 5 point difference.... while a quad is worth over 10 points.... and it's not like Patrick doesn't do quads he has 3 planned in his LP...

You want the sport judged as a sport, I AM FINE WITH THAT... that's how some other "judged" sports are judged... Diving... Degree of difficulty times execution... Same with gymnastics..... It's quite clear. Make figure skating like that, and then I am happy to bow down to a guy who has a much higher degree of difficulty, if the execution is good enough to put him in first...

But if you have PCS the way it's meant to be (read the rules instead of making your own) then right now, it's not well judged nor evenly distributed to value each aspect of skating fairly.

Coming from someone who has been an advocate of the 6.0 system... wow... i am surprised.

Get over it. Nathan beat your favorite skater. Hanyu did win the free skate. He lost cuz he messed up his short program. Stop crying and accept it, Nathan won. Learn to deal with it and move on.

Jammers said:

Where were all these people who are griping about Nathan's PCS when Yulia Lip was getting PCS almost has high as Carolina or Mao by the time of Europeans and the Olympics. I don't think a skater has ever had their PCS rise so fast in such a short amount of time over one season and it's not like she was some kind of great artist on the ice.

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I was here and I was so angry about it that I decided to join GS, and let it all out!

Hideo Sugita, highly esteemed commentator for Japan's pay-TV JSport, ex ISU judge/referee and still a member of ISU Officials Assessment Commission, said in today's 4CC mens' free broadcasting that he honestly thought Hanyu deserved higher PCS for his free. Both Hanyu and Chan are quite special in their skating skills with their fluidity that cannot be said about Nathan, who is a genius in jumps, with good height and very quick rotations, which however Hanyu also possesses. Hanyu's jumps in the free had all unquestionably excellent landings, even the popped 2S didn't cause a loss of balance whereas Nathan was visibly tired in the second half so the landings got messy. He was of the opinion that the difference in their PCS should have been bigger. I agree.

If PCS is everything, Patrick should win every competition. Even his falls look good. Give the gold to Patrick. Hanyu can't even compare to Patrick.

skatinggold said:

Get over it. Nathan beat your favorite skater. Hanyu did win the free skate. He lost cuz he messed up his short program. Stop crying and accept it, Nathan won. Learn to deal with it and move on.

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Except the fact that Mr Chen was massively overscored for a program with almost 40 crossovers and some generous GOE for very weak landings. If this is the future of figure skating then ISU will be doomed. Had it been Mr. Jin who did that, he would have been the silver medalist (exactly what happened last year).

I know many top names in ISU do not favor the current trends of going for quads and ignoring quality. They intend to make a chance but they can do nothing. This is the most powerful federation they're dealing with. Ok we will give your new favorite 90s PCS asap, there is no doubt because you want top medals to save your declining market.

Why is it so difficult for Americans to admit they're having double standards. Weren't they the ones who trashed Miss Sotnikova when she won Sochi? Had she been American, most of them would shut up.
American fans are just like that, when they had no quads they trashed the quads, now they have quads (even though not pretty), they trash the quality.

I'd like to see what Chan's skating would be if he was able to land 5 quads in a FS (which he is not, by any stretch of the imagination). Would he have glorious transitions between the jumps? Would all the jumps be landed with pristine cleanness? Somehow I doubt it.

Hanyu might be able to eke out a skate with 5 quads and for sure it would have a higher degree of artistry than Nathan's, but I doubt it would be pristinely clean.

Is Nathan male Evgenia now (I'm talking mainly about previous/current/incoming threads of this kind. But in couple others ways as well lol). I won't lie that I agree with you, OP. I really like Nathan but he is sure overscored on both GOEs and PCS. If this is what now ISU/ judges expect from male skaters, it's shame.