How judges place GOE?

bibi1899 · Apr 8, 2017

https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=tw&v=x8X0u4BX6ks

Here is the video compared the men jumps in world FS this year. For me some of the jumps didn't get proper GOE to reflect their quality.

For example, the 3F in Hanyu's FS hits ( for me) all goe bullets and definitely can get +3 in GOE while actually one judge even think it only deserve +1 .
I know Hanyu skate first in the group, which might affect his PCS, but speaking of GOE, i think if jumps which meet GOE bullets require can get proper credit.

Can some one share your thinking on the GOE placement?

Thank you.

Khoai · Apr 8, 2017

How on earth this didn't get called out for so long is my biggest question: https://media.giphy.com/media/Bq7iHlLQ1EPni/giphy.gif

Don't they feel it's very unfair for Mr. Nathan Chen who also does 4F and much better?

Khoai · Apr 8, 2017

Jason Brown is quite under-rated when it comes to technique: http://imgur.com/uLc5lEz
Another good 1/2 loop: http://imgur.com/RinsPL5
and a bad one: http://imgur.com/0ApdG2Q

Li'Kitsu · Apr 8, 2017

Khoai said:
Jason Brown is quite under-rated when it comes to technique: http://imgur.com/uLc5lEz
Another good 1/2 loop: http://imgur.com/RinsPL5
and a bad one: http://imgur.com/0ApdG2Q

Yes! People only harp on and on about Jason not having a quad, but he rarely gets credit for the fact that the jumps he does have have actually really good quality. It's not like he should be getting +3 for all of them or something, but his basic technique is nice, toe pick and all. From watching Shomas 4F, I don't think people who don't know how jumps should work would even be able to get that that is supposed to be a 'toe pick', not whole blade and weight on the ice :slink:

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 8, 2017

IMO, Javier's 4T and 4S were better executed than Hanyu's 4T and solo 4S. And Uno's 3A+3T was a harder combo, executed about as well as a 3A+2T and perhaps the judges recognized that Shoma's 3A+3T and 3A+3F were harder than Hanyu's 3A+2T and 3A+3S, so they credited him a bit more for a clean jump. (After all, a clean solo 3S isn't likely to get +3's across the board compared to a solo 4S.)

I didn't notice it before but upon replay, it looks like Hanyu's 4L in his FS was a bit UR on the landing, but was quite likely given benefit of the doubt. (Freeze the frame where his blade hits the ice at 5:06). I think Uno was given leeway on his 4F takeoff, so I guess it balances out. But for people to be like the judges are denying Hanyu GOE is ridiculous. As hard as it is to believe, sometimes other skaters perform elements better. How dare Uno/Fernandez score similarly (or... in some cases, *clutches pearls* higher!).

It's like... he won - fair and square. So stop complaining that you didn't have a higher margin of victory.

sweetphooh · Apr 9, 2017

Khoai said:
How on earth this didn't get called out for so long is my biggest question: https://media.giphy.com/media/Bq7iHlLQ1EPni/giphy.gif

Don't they feel it's very unfair for Mr. Nathan Chen who also does 4F and much better?

Terrible toe jump..............:eeking:

frida80 · Apr 9, 2017

sweetphooh said:
Terrible toe jump..............:eeking:

I don't think that's a toe jump anymore. He turned fully on the blade. :noshake:

I don't think there is a penalty for prerotation.

Khoai · Apr 9, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
IMO, Javier's 4T and 4S were better executed than Hanyu's 4T and solo 4S. And Uno's 3A+3T was a harder combo, executed about as well as a 3A+2T and perhaps the judges recognized that Shoma's 3A+3T and 3A+3F were harder than Hanyu's 3A+2T and 3A+3S, so they credited him a bit more for a clean jump. (After all, a clean solo 3S isn't likely to get +3's across the board compared to a solo 4S.)

I didn't notice it before but upon replay, it looks like Hanyu's 4L in his FS was a bit UR on the landing, but was quite likely given benefit of the doubt. (Freeze the frame where his blade hits the ice at 5:06). I think Uno was given leeway on his 4F takeoff, so I guess it balances out. But for people to be like the judges are denying Hanyu GOE is ridiculous. As hard as it is to believe, sometimes other skaters perform elements better. How dare Uno/Fernandez score similarly (or... in some cases, *clutches pearls* higher!).

Stuff like this reminds me of Trump/his supporters saying he should have won the election by a greater margin, because of supposed illegals voting/rigging/etc. It's like... he won - fair and square. So stop complaining that you didn't have a higher margin of victory.

i love how people can twist and turn because they hate Hanyu.

Barb · Apr 9, 2017

Moderators removed the threads with the video of Evigenia´s flutz but this thread is allowed? Interesting :rolleye:

Interspectator · Apr 9, 2017

Well, I guess 'debatable' is the key word here. I thought, overall the judging was good, but the judges don't get the time to look at the jumps strung together like this in one video, one after the other.
There are some areas where more or less could be given on each jump but on the whole the jumps seem very nice especially Javi's and Yuzu's Solo quad jumps. The only ones that really look bad in slomo are Shoma's 4Fs, but that's always been the case. His 4F take off has been mostly flat-edge or heavily prerotated since he started jumping it, and the judges have been consistent in judging it as an OK jump take off.
Shoma's 3As are very nice. His +GOE is well deserved
All Yuzu's jumps were beautiful in the FS and also the SP. Except his 4S-2T in the SP.
If the argument is that Yuzu's jumps were underscored, then I guess I agree, compared to similarily executed jumps by Javi and Shoma, but on the whole his quality on ALL his elements won the day as his Total GOE in the score sheet shows. I don't think this is a deliberate underscoring by judges though. It's not a matter of terrible outrage, like I felt when Boyang didn't win at the Asia Winter Games. That's a place where nit picking on Shoma's jumps and more accurate scoring on the part of the judges could actually have changed the outcome.

It's a well skated event. Lots of beautiful jumps.
Ah, I do feel some outrage that Boyangs 4Lz didn't get a +3. That's highway robbery. :biggrin:

Alchamei · Apr 9, 2017

chapis said:
Moderators removed the threads with the video of Evigenia´s flutz but this thread is allowed? Interesting

Wait, this really happened? :shocked:

Khoai · Apr 9, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I didn't notice it before but upon replay, it looks like Hanyu's 4L in his FS was a bit UR on the landing, but was quite likely given benefit of the doubt. (Freeze the frame where his blade hits the ice at 5:06). I think Uno was given leeway on his 4F takeoff, so I guess it balances out.

Anyone explains why Mr. Uno and Mr. Nathan gets same GOE and same credit for this 4F: https://youtu.be/qzUv5fWz16Q

jinabee · Apr 9, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
IMO, Javier's 4T and 4S were better executed than Hanyu's 4T and solo 4S. And Uno's 3A+3T was a harder combo, executed about as well as a 3A+2T and perhaps the judges recognized that Shoma's 3A+3T and 3A+3F were harder than Hanyu's 3A+2T and 3A+3S, so they credited him a bit more for a clean jump. (After all, a clean solo 3S isn't likely to get +3's across the board compared to a solo 4S.)

this seems dumb tho. Shouldn't GOE application be straight forward? They either hit the bullets or they don't, jump difficulty shouldn't really come into it because more higher difficulty is reflected in the BV. Uno's combo being more difficult shouldnm't mean anything when it comes to GOE. If the 3a+2T hit 6 bullets, it should get the +3. A 3A+3T that also earned +3 GOE is going to be worth more score wise reguardless, without judges holding back GOE because someone else is attempting a more difficult combo later on.

I mean, I'm not exactly as bothered as some by the apparent holding back on scoring depending on skate order seeing as the result is unlikely to have changed if some scoring was a touch higher or lower in places, and I can kinda understand why some areas of PCS scoring would be a somewhat comparitive and maybe held back a bit depending on skate order but GOE scoring seems as straight forward and particularly subjective. The judging and the scores for worlds don't really bother me but the implication of judges boldly favouring certain skaters or maybe not judging as fairly as they could, by holding some points back for skaters going earlier in their group, if kinda troubling and I think it's good for spectators to question things like that so there is at least a chance that it can be addressed and we have a hope of at least somewhat fair and correct judging when the olympics roll around.
(though I do not think there is a big conspiricy to stiff Hanyu out of a second gold medal. If by some micacle the top 6 all skate two clean programs, Hanyu will win. Since that is unlikely to happen, it's less predictable but mistakes will decide if he wins or not, not some slightly questionable handling of GOE. I mean with all of this he still set a WR)

Nika09 · Apr 9, 2017

frida80 said:
I don't think that's a toe jump anymore. He turned fully on the blade. :noshake:

It was unique and cute toe-edge jump...toge jump? :laugh:

Shoma works hard and I'm sure and hope he will improve his jump techniques to the next season.

Interspectator said:
It's a well skated event. Lots of beautiful jumps.
Ah, I do feel some outrage that Boyangs 4Lz didn't get a +3. That's highway robbery.

Boyangman has got more than 16 points for single jump! ONE SINGLE JUMP! That was terrific! :rock:

GOE was about 2.70 I guess, pretty good.

Fayruza · Apr 9, 2017

Nika09 said:
It was unique and cute toe-edge jump...toge jump?

Shoma works hard and I'm sure and hope he will improve his jump techniques to the next season.

Boyangman has got more than 16 points for single jump! ONE SINGLE JUMP! That was terrific! GOE was about 2.70 I guess, pretty good.

What's the incentive to correct anything in his technique if this dubious technique gets rewarded?

Ah, I've just seen this video showing the beauty of Shoma's flip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzUv5fWz16Q&feature=youtu.be

Camillo · Apr 9, 2017

Fayruza said:
What's the incentive to correct anything in his technique if this dubious technique gets rewarded?

This.

Fayruza said:
Ah, I've just seen this video showing the beauty of Shoma's flip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzUv5fWz16Q&feature=youtu.be

Have you seen the beauty of his 4 flutz already? http://gph.is/2oOC4EJ I bet next season this jump would get higher GOE than Boyang's and Nathan's 4L :laugh:

Fayruza · Apr 9, 2017

Camillo said:
This.

Have you seen the beauty of his 4 flutz already? http://gph.is/2oOC4EJ I bet next season this jump would get higher GOE than Boyang's and Nathan's 4L

Beautiful, thank you! I hope it gets an edge deduction.
The boy is musical, expressive... but he's not a good jumper.

daphenaxa · Apr 9, 2017

Camillo said:
This.

Have you seen the beauty of his 4 flutz already? http://gph.is/2oOC4EJ I bet next season this jump would get higher GOE than Boyang's and Nathan's 4L

lol for first ever attempts at a 4lz those are actually valiant tries. Hope you seethe when he does includes them and gets +GOEs on them :agree:

Fayruza · Apr 9, 2017

daphenaxa said:
lol for first ever attempts at a 4lz those are actually valiant tries. Hope you seethe when he does includes them and gets +GOEs on them :agree:

You don't get it, do you? If he does them with sound technique, no one will seethe, but if he cheats it like he cheats his 4F, yes, that'l be an outrage.

daphenaxa · Apr 9, 2017

Fayruza said:
You don't get it, do you? If he does them with sound technique, no one will seethe, but if he cheats it like he cheats his 4F, yes, that'l be an outrage.

of course

and you are the fairest of them all
actually that 4F vid shows his quad flips are round so...

How judges place GOE?

bibi1899

Khoai

Match Penalty

Khoai

Match Penalty

Li'Kitsu

CanadianSkaterGuy

sweetphooh

frida80

Khoai

Match Penalty

Barb

Interspectator

Alchamei

Khoai

Match Penalty

jinabee

Nika09

Fayruza

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Camillo

Fayruza

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daphenaxa

Fayruza

Match Penalty

daphenaxa

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