How judges place GOE?

Gladiolusc, the intent of this thread as well as the blogger post, and a litany of posts like it is to stave off the other guys catching up or complaining when a guy beats Hanyu.

If Uno hasn't skated well and Hanyu won, you wouldn't see threads and reaction like this. Same with Hanyu coming 5th in the SP. No diehard fans would suggest Hanyu is being short changed on GOE if he were winning - and by a comfortable margin.

It's fine to analyze GOE but to do so right after your skater won Worlds saying everyone deserves lower and your skater who just won deserves higher is really sore winning. And frankly kinda crazy - like, he wins and you complain, he loses you complain... in what scenario are you folks NOT complaining? They sure didn't complain about GOE or PCS that allowed Hanyu to beat Machida back in 2014, or create analyses/post mortems.

Also Hanyu didn't lose Worlds SP in 5th because of unfair GOE as that blog post is suggesting - he lost because he messed up his SP combo giving up a huge amount of points and the other guys lit it up. Also the judges are probably looking at things that we might not be noticing and being more critical about certain things when it comes to certain skaters.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Gladiolusc, the intent of this thread as well as the blogger post, and a litany of posts like it is to stave off the other guys catching up or complaining when a guy beats Hanyu.

If Uno hasn't skated well and Hanyu won, you wouldn't see threads and reaction like this. Same with Hanyu coming 5th in the SP. No diehard fans would suggest Hanyu is being short changed on GOE if he were winning - and by a comfortable margin.

It's fine to analyze GOE but to do so right after your skater won Worlds saying everyone deserves lower and your skater who just won deserves higher is really sore winning. And frankly kinda crazy - like, he wins and you complain, he loses you complain... in what scenario are you folks NOT complaining? They sure didn't complain about GOE or PCS that allowed Hanyu to beat Machida back in 2014, or create analyses/post mortems.

Also Hanyu didn't lose Worlds SP in 5th because of unfair GOE as that blog post is suggesting - he lost because he messed up his SP combo giving up a huge amount of points and the other guys lit it up. Also the judges are probably looking at things that we might not be noticing and being more critical about certain things when it comes to certain skaters.

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Well, he can only win or lose And if I remember, complaining when he lost = sore loser. Now, complaining when he won = sore winner. I just think whether or not he won or lost should be removed from the consideration of when it is appropriate to have these discussions. There just doesn't ever seem to be a right time, is there? What would have been the correct time frame? Give it 2 months? That doesn't make sense to me.

The intent of this post based on my read of the OP is that Hanyu got less GOE, I don't see "everyone deserves lower" at all. Similarly, since the video simply has jumps one after the other, side by side, normal speed and slow-motion, I will take it as such. I don't have a strong feeling about the other skaters' high GOE scores, I take them as benchmarks for what Hanyu's jumps should (in my personal opinion) score. Clearly other posters HAD issues with the scores, and they posted their opinions. Why not just directly address them instead of lumping everyone together? I see plenty of Hanyu fans taking a stab at constructive discussion here without bashing anyone.

Re: there being reactions only because Uno skated well and (from your previous post) posed a threat... I don't think that's true. For one, we dedicate pages and pages puzzling over the 3F-that-just-wouldn't-get-a-+3 regardless. "No diehard fan would".... well this diehard fan would still sulk over that 3F not getting +3, I can't speak for other diehard fans I guess. Secondly, I assume by "threads and reaction like this" you're referring to this post and the flutzer post? (Sorry if I'm mistaken, do correct me) Frankly, both these threads had non-Hanyu fan participation and I don't believe Ares is a Hanyu fan? Ares doesn't post in the fan fest, so I don't know.


(Also, sorry to go back to an old point, what's your take re: Kurt's comments? I'm curious...)

Yup you just defined sore winner and sore loser. A sore loser is someone who can't accept their defeat graciously and a sore winner is someone who doesn't win without gloating, or worse, complaning that they should have won by an even greater margin. Imagine if someone beats you in basketball 100-95 and the winners complain after, saying "it should have been 103-92 but the ref was lenient to you on these particular plays and mean to me". It's like, dude, you won - stop saying how you shoulda won MORE.

I don't think Uno's quad flip is as solid a takeoff or as strong a technique as say Chen (the only other to compare him to at the moment, although Nam is trying one. A flip jump requires a vault and it's hard to deliberately rotate a considerable amount of the jump on the ice. I still think Uno is doing the mechanics of a 4F, and I think his height is pretty good on it, or at least the distance. Pre-rotation is an issue yes, but I don't consider it particularly severe compared to underrotated landings (certainly not to the degree as those who would just loooove to see Uno nailed by the tech specialist on it).

It's ironic because Kurt Browning had one of the worst flip picking in/takeoffs of the men, IIRC. I can post examples but it very much was a bad jump for him and his takeoff was not square off the toe pick. Here's his 3F (see the 9:00 min mark https://youtu.be/Nu7c-2qi9Lk).

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Yup you just defined sore winner and sore loser. A sore loser is someone who can't accept their defeat graciously and a sore winner is someone who doesn't win without gloating, or worse, saying they should have won by an even greater margin.

I don't think Uno's quad flip is as solid a takeoff or as strong a technique as say Chen (the only other to compare him to at the moment, although Nam is trying one. A flip jump requires a vault and it's hard to deliberately rotate a considerable amount of the jump on the ice. I still think Uno is doing the mechanics of a 4F, and I think his height is pretty good on it, or at least the distance. Pre-rotation is an issue yes, but I don't consider it particularly severe compared to underrotated landings (certainly not to the degree as those who would just loooove to see Uno nailed by the tech specialist on it).

It's ironic because Kurt Browning had one of the worst flip picking in/takeoffs of the men, IIRC. I can post examples but it very much was a bad jump for him and his takeoff was not cleanly off the toe pick. So it's kinda interesting that he would say that about Uno's takeoffs - unless he was speaking from experience.

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Kurt said it specifically about Uno's toe jumps during the playback, and made a distinction from his axel ("which was beautiful"). His wording was otherwise neutral, but the distinction itself made it sound like he didn't think it was a good thing, if not a bad thing. I really can't see the height, honestly, especially compared to his 3A, but the GOE bullet is "distance and height". No point nitpicking though, since I didn't see it live. Thanks for answering!

While arguing he should get more GOE necessarily means he'd result in a bigger win, my point (and I imagine some others as well) is really that the win/lose part is irrelevant. It's more that he's been chasing his own ghost of perfection from 2015 and, quality wise, I thought SEIMEI jumps were pretty perfect but H&L honestly showed me even better, despite getting less GOEs. Were the judges particularly stingy this time around? Based on what other skaters got, seems about normal. So one way or the other (there is really no way to talk about group intention), the judges combined to consistently give GOE scores that were lower than what I would expect to most of his jumps.

And overall, I just think it's better for the sport if these conversations and discussions aren't poo-poo'd. Ideally they can be had without everyone getting all fired up. :confused2:

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I don't think Uno's quad flip is as solid a takeoff or as strong a technique as say Chen (the only other to compare him to at the moment, although Nam is trying one. A flip jump requires a vault and it's hard to deliberately rotate a considerable amount of the jump on the ice. I still think Uno is doing the mechanics of a 4F, and I think his height is pretty good on it, or at least the distance. Pre-rotation is an issue yes, but I don't consider it particularly severe compared to underrotated landings (certainly not to the degree as those who would just loooove to see Uno nailed by the tech specialist on it).

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CSG, you know I love you, man, but I have to tell you respectfully that you've lost your mind.

Shoma may be INTENDING to do a quad flip, but analysis of that video clearly showed he's doing a 3/4 twizzle into some sort of 3 1/4 edge jump, which most closely resembles a salchow.

And, again, I say this as a fan of Shoma. Fair is fair, and he SHOULD be called by a tech specialist on this, and I hope it happens early in the season, so he is put on notice and has time to correct. I'd hate for the TS to "catch religion" and make the call for the first time at the Olympic Games. In your heart, you know it would be a righteous hit.

Firstly, I acknowledged that 4F attempt isn't the best technique. Secondly, I don't think that *particular* video is a reflection of every 4F attempt Shoma has done, and certainly not every future attempt he will do. Yes he doesn't pop off the pick as most flip technicians do, but his vault is derived from the pick. He is not deliberately trying to vault off the flat of his blade. To suggest it's a loop of some sort is ridiculous because he's clearly vaulting off primarily the pick and not drawing himself up using a sweeping left outside edge. You don't execute a 3L jump by "rebounding" off your right blade, if that makes sense. There are some quad toe technicians who practically pick off the flat of their blade too instead of purely the toe pick and while it's not good technique, it doesn't change the nature of the jump to a flipburger or a salchow or whatever you want to call it.

Yes, an ideal flip goes directly off the pick with no prerotation on the ice, and he is not doing that. But I also don't think he's deliberately prerotating on the ice and the mechanics of what it takes to do a quad are all there. Here's an example that looks fine to me, at least in real time. https://youtu.be/YdJ-sRpHAHc

As many have said, his 4F technique is improving (it's a relatively new jump - has been around not even a year). Plus it's painfully obvious that the intention to scrutinize Shoma's flip technique is in light of him becoming a legit threat this season (and of course the expected surge in anti-Uno sentiment after him scoring so well in the SP and almost winning Worlds - mainly from "concerned" Hanyu fans saying he's 'cheating' and needs to be taken to task --- not that it would benefit Hanyu or anything.) These are not-so-subtle attempts to create an air of skepticism around Uno's jumping. Well, at least for now the ISU isn't buying the whole pre-rotation outcries. And I'm cool with it (and cool with the ratification of Uno's 4F) even if not everyone else happens to be. Until there are specific rules surrounding pre-rotation (right now the closest is "lacking rotation" as -1 GOE reduction - which is worthy of application for jumps like the example shown), and the rules are limited to under-rotation on landings, Uno is being assessed fairly. I don't expect the TS to "catch religion" at the Olympics and suddenly penalize him -- as much as ubers like to think they have any impact on the ISU, newsflash - they don't. That being said, changing the rules to strictly penalize pre-rotation is a sticky issue too because it would seem targeted at specific skaters like Uno and Miyahara. I'd say it's best if specific pre-rotation rules were implemented after the 2018 Olympics - although by then I'm betting Uno's technique will be more secure

I'm pretty sure Uno is fully aware of the need to clean up his 4F technique, after all he's not getting good GOE, and half of Japan is out for blood and ready to scrutinize him that much more because he poses a threat to Hanyu now. Let's give him more than 11 months doing the jump and see what he does. Hanyu was able to correct his lip technique over time, and other skaters who have been prone to prerotation like Miyahara have shown improvement, so I'm optimistic that come next season he'll be at a better place with it.

These marks (both TES and PCS) affect all skaters not only the podium, or the first 6. As I said before, if Kevin had slightly better PCS even 1-3 more TES, then Canada would have had 3 skaters.
Julian has one of most entertaining programs. Is he rewarded for that? NO! why? Is it because he is young and even more he represents a minute figure skating federation.
Young skaters also pay a PCS price for their youth, though some are more artistic than older skaters.

This topic has been discussed thoroughly, and is now closed.