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Thread: Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    1. No - technical difficulty should never be limited.
    2. I think spins should be worth a bit more, to encourage better quality spins from the field. A backloading limit (e.g. you must have at least 2 jumping passes in the first half of the program) would help balance programs.
    3. GOE and PCS need to be stricter - I would like to see mandatory DEductions (like how "final GOE must be -3" for the Combo-less jump in the SP) imposed on touchdowns/falls/step-outs (i.e. no matter how good a jump is in all other aspects, a fall should be -3 and a hand-down should be -1)... any element with an obvious, significant technical error (and these can be pre-determined so it's cut and dry: e.g. hand-down, foot-down, "e" entry, step-out, UR, fall), as deemed by the technical specialist, must not get more than 0 GOE. REductions can be for things like a lean forward on the landing, landing on the wrong edge/scratchy landing, poor height/distance, that are not major visible errors but should still reduce the GOE of the jump compared to a clean jump. In senior ranks, any jump that is turned into a double (save for a 2A) must immediately have 0 GOE or less.

    I would like to see the top TWO and the bottom TWO scores for GOE and PCS be thrown out, instead of just 1 top/bottom GOE or PCS thrown out -- i.e. only 5 out of 9 judges count for each GOE or PCS calculation. And there should be a report about which judges got the most scores thrown out by the end of a competition. This will discourage potential block judging and encourage judges to score more consistently. Literally, scare the judges into judging consistently and without blatant favouritism.

    Any judge who gives a 10.00 in any PCS category for a performance with a major visible error (fall/pop/two-hands down) must be held accountable. Any judge who gives 9.5 or higher for a performance with 2 major errors must similarly be held accountable. And no 9's allowed for 3 major visible errors. Better yet would be if the technical specialist determined the number of major errors after a program, and after that, the judges' scorescreens only permit them to give maximum PCS scores (e.g. if there's 2 major visible errors, the judges are restricted to giving no more than 9.25 on any PCS category).
    A comment about #2.
    First, i think its premature as even the top skaters still have 2 jumps in first half. If Zagitova keeps her 100% backloading next year, that will make 1 skater. Not sure if its worth changing rules because of very few people.
    Second, as a program with all jumps in first half is equally not balanced, i suggest changing it to "at least 2 jumps in first half, and at least 2 jumps in second half".

    3. Rather than stricter deductions, i think we would need more accurate technical calls. So UR jumps are actually always called as such, pre-rotated jumps are also called, and wrong edges are also called. Not like now that it all depends on the technical pannel blinking at the right moment.
    Also, "jump turned into a double" - i think thats strict. If a skater jumps a double instead of a triple or a quad at top level, its already a harsh punishment by itself.



    Random thought. Instead of throwing out top and bottom GOEs and PCS, imho would be interesting to add up all GOEs and then remove the top and bottom (like, the whole column), and same for PCs.

    Also, instead of awarding GOE, judges should just tick the boxes and let the computer do the math. The boxes ticked would be released after the competition together with scores. This would allow a finer tuning: for instance, instead of removing top and bottom GOE, the program could only take in account the boxes ticked by, lets say, at least 5 judges. For example, if only 2 judges that the entry to the jump was difficult - that would not be considered for the final GOE for that jump.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Patrick certainly knows about Shoma's pre-rotation issue, and the way Shoma jerks his landings.
    Nathan's landings are titled to the right hips. So it's also kind of worrying if he keeps that habit for long.
    I don't think either Shoma or Nathan (or their teams) believe that competing long-term with all those quads is possible. And so forget 2022; they both are going all out now for that OGM in 2018. We're already hearing that Shoma is dealing with various injuries and Nathan himself has voiced concerns about his "body holding up."

    Female skaters have always had a shorter career window than male skaters; I wonder if training so many different types of quads will shorten the career window for the men as well?

  3. #228
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    On the topic of this thread,

    1) I also fear for skaters' health. It seems like some of the younger guys are skating on borrowed time (or knees).
    2) If the ice is bad, skaters should speak up and it should be fixed. There shouldn't be a pretense that athletes need to skate through the pain, whether that's bad ice, dangerous conditions, illnesses, concussions, etc. We also shouldn't celebrate a culture where concern for health gets labeled as an excuse.

    Keep in mind that there's a cultural difference too. I think some cultures value sacrifice more than others. I'm American and I complain about things left and right
    Last edited by narcissa; 04-27-2017 at 02:27 PM.

  4. #229
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    Sigh. I never noticed a problem with the ice in Boston. I am probably not the kind of person who would notice said problem at all. Usually, when you go to Nationals, you hear people discussing the quality of the ice because the families/coaches/people-in-the-know compose a large portion of the audience during the early days of competition when younger athletes are competing. But that wasn't the case at Worlds, which of course, was quite packed with "regular" fans.

    What I did notice is that the same rink was absolutely frigid during the 2014 U.S. Nationals. Frigid. You were dressed in many layers, and without a blanket, it only took about 20 minutes during the practices for one to feel like one needed to escape.

    At the beginning of last year's Worlds, the temperature was much more bearable. I attended a full set of practices without needing to leave. Once the audience arrived for the actual event, I attended the first several competitions without needing a blanket. (It's very common for this to be the case once an arena fills up with audience members).

    The day after the men's event, the temperature plummeted, I had the chills, & had to return to the hotel mid-day for a hot bath before returning for the second event in thicker layers.

    It's a huge space & it's very cold. I think that in order to keep the ice cold enough, they have to constantly blow cold air throughout the arena. And I'm sure they've had complaints from audience members turning into popsicles in the past. I'm sure the organizers did their best. I suspect that they attempted to find a balance that was more audience-friendly than 2014 Nationals. (At which point there was a "blizzard" outside, shutting down airports). So Worlds began with a warmer inside temperature. And, clearly, promptly after complaints during the men's event, the temperature was lowered.

    However, one does wonder why said complaints came out after the men's event and not during the practices.

    Also, it's important to remember that figure skating events are very different than hosting a hockey game. Most people can sit in a cold, full arena for a couple hours without feeling ill. But figure skating events last all day. You can be there from 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. if you watch practices. It's a different challenge for any arena to host. Boston is more experienced than most of the places I have attended figure skating events.
    Last edited by Ice Dance; 04-27-2017 at 08:44 PM.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by moriel View Post
    A comment about #2.
    First, i think its premature as even the top skaters still have 2 jumps in first half. If Zagitova keeps her 100% backloading next year, that will make 1 skater. Not sure if its worth changing rules because of very few people.
    Second, as a program with all jumps in first half is equally not balanced, i suggest changing it to "at least 2 jumps in first half, and at least 2 jumps in second half".

    3. Rather than stricter deductions, i think we would need more accurate technical calls. So UR jumps are actually always called as such, pre-rotated jumps are also called, and wrong edges are also called. Not like now that it all depends on the technical pannel blinking at the right moment.
    Also, "jump turned into a double" - i think thats strict. If a skater jumps a double instead of a triple or a quad at top level, its already a harsh punishment by itself.



    Random thought. Instead of throwing out top and bottom GOEs and PCS, imho would be interesting to add up all GOEs and then remove the top and bottom (like, the whole column), and same for PCs.

    Also, instead of awarding GOE, judges should just tick the boxes and let the computer do the math. The boxes ticked would be released after the competition together with scores. This would allow a finer tuning: for instance, instead of removing top and bottom GOE, the program could only take in account the boxes ticked by, lets say, at least 5 judges. For example, if only 2 judges that the entry to the jump was difficult - that would not be considered for the final GOE for that jump.
    Regarding doubles: let's be honest. A doubled jump in a senior level program (other than a 2A) is an error. It should be seen as "insufficient rotations". If it gets a 0 GOE, I'm fine with that, but it should NOT be getting positive GOE -- which, of course, only popular skaters would "earn" for their doubled jumps while all other doubled jumps from lesser skaters would get negative GOE.

    Also, while ticking the GOE boxes is an interesting thought, it would take FOREVER to score a skater. You're basically taking a vote for 13 elements, and then ticking 8 boxes of GOE bullets - plus they'd need headphones to see if elements matched musical structure.

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