Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

Crossover said:

Yes, that's why I think they are the perfect people to advocate limiting numbers of quad execution in a program. I really don't get why Patrick has to be so honest about how he feels in interviews! which almost always have led him into unnecessary troubles. I wish Patrick hires a PR agency for him.

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That's the thing, I think? They are against limiting numbers of quads and highly celebrate the technical progression, hence it will be very unlikely that you would hear those 3 ever advocate it. So someone who is actually against it has to speak out.
Is there actually veteran skaters that is retired who are highly against many quads? Even johnny weir who didn't do quads not really hinting/implying that it should be limited, from what I know. What did Yagudin think of it? Or urmanov or kulik or petrenko or boitano or goebel for example?

mcq said:

That's the thing, I think? They are against limiting numbers of quads and highly celebrate the technical progression, hence it will be very unlikely that you would hear those 3 ever advocate it. So someone who is actually against it has to speak out.
Is there actually veteran skaters that is retired who are highly against many quads? Even johnny weir who didn't do quads not really hinting/implying that it should be limited, from what I know. What did Yagudin think of it? Or urmanov or kulik or petrenko or boitano or goebel for example?

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That's my point. As long as Patrick is competing, his opinions regarding the rules and his peers can be interpreted differently from his original intention.

Crossover said:

That's my point. As long as Patrick is competing, his opinions regarding the rules and his peers can be interpreted differently from his original intention.

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Ah I see, I get it

Here's a suggestion: learn from other disciplines which have such jumps with rotation (not gymnastics; Yuzu already interviewed Kenzo Shirai, the best twister in the world, with unsatisfactory results ).

Dance has many big jumps with rotation that land with 1 foot. There is double saut de basque, double tours into arabesque or pirouette, jete en tournant, etc. In dance, many injuries are caused by landing jumps incorrectly. Hence before learning the big jumps, teachers put a lot of emphasis on proper alignment, proper plie and building up strength in the feet, legs, glutes and core so you can execute the jumps with the proper alignment and proper plie. This prevents injury by minimizing the stress on the joints, hips and back.

When you land, your foot should be under your hips, your knee should be bent in the same direction as your foot, your hips and shoulders should be aligned and facing the same way and movement in the free leg should not come from the hip but rather rotation in the hip socket. During rotation in the air and landing, the hips and shoulders should stay aligned (no twisting in the torso) with the core strong. I see many skaters with bad alignment in their air positions and/or bad alignment when they land their jumps. Some have twisted torsos in the air which they need to correct by wrenching themselves back to center with their hips and their shoulders when they land. Others I can see landing with their free leg swinging outward along with their hips and again they need to wrench themselves back to center. Their coaches should not allow them to do big jumps with this bad alignment as this can cause injuries.

Skater Boy said:

And great for Yuzuru to think quins are possible or quad axels.

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If murmurings are to be believed, he knows quad axels are possible. He's landed it already.

OS said:

Being in control do require certain stiffness (centred core like ballet).

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Patrick however skates with tension in his upper body, particularly his shoulders. That's what makes him look stiff. In ballet, you should not have such tension.

I have a question. What would be the benefit of limiting quads in a competition to a skaters health? I mean, they are still going to be doing quads like crazy when they train right?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

This is actually the first season he's actually been regularly attempting the 4S in competition. Unless you're referring to other skaters who took a while to land their 4S with any kind of consistency?

As far as 4F landing consistently in 9 months... Uno, Jin, and Chen are examples of skaters who have been landing difficult quads pretty much right off the bat. Granted, it's much harder for Chan to do that given his age compared to them, but if he wants to win gold, he needs to add greater difficulty.

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Chan isn't going to win gold. He would need to skate two squeaky clean programs with added difficulty while all the other top men bomb. And when has Chan skated two squeaky clean programs this year? Not at Finlandia. Not at SC. Not at CoC. Not at the GPF. Not at 4CC. Not at Worlds. Not even at Nationals.

He won silver at Finlandia (Nathan Chen won gold); won SC and CoC, was 5th at GPF, 4th at 4CC and 5th at Worlds.

chuckm said:

Chan isn't going to win gold. He would need to skate two squeaky clean programs with added difficulty while all the other top men bomb. And when has Chan skated two squeaky clean programs this year? Not at Finlandia. Not at SC. Not at CoC. Not at the GPF. Not at 4CC. Not at Worlds. Not even at Nationals.

He won silver at Finlandia (Nathan Chen won gold); won SC and CoC, was 5th at GPF, 4th at 4CC and 5th at Worlds.

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Based on how these guys are marked, I can see a clean Chan beating a clean Boyang. Javier, Hanyu, Shoma, and Chen could conceivably bomb. It's very likely to happen, but I wouldn't give Chan 0% odds of OGM either.

I don't believe skaters can be stopped to up the ante in their sports, especially when the rewards are so high. I think the best approach is to raise the value of PCS so skaters of different talents can find different ways of scoring instead of forcing themselves to learn and do multiple quads in their attempts to be competitive. These days, the best a skater without a consistent quad or two can hope is to be in the mid tier, far away from the podium.

As well there should be research and strict reports of injuries to better understand the effect and consequences of wide spread and intensive quad training. Coaches need to be trained and held responsible for safe training of young skaters. This is just the beginning of lots of over training and injuries unless the trend is managed.

chuckm said:

Chan isn't going to win gold. He would need to skate two squeaky clean programs with added difficulty while all the other top men bomb. And when has Chan skated two squeaky clean programs this year? Not at Finlandia. Not at SC. Not at CoC. Not at the GPF. Not at 4CC. Not at Worlds. Not even at Nationals.

He won silver at Finlandia (Nathan Chen won gold); won SC and CoC, was 5th at GPF, 4th at 4CC and 5th at Worlds.

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Chuckm, Assuming they take the top 24 into the free program, there are 21 other skaters who will not be on the podium. Are you saying they should all just stay at home and not try. Patrick is representing the country of Canada and has done so proudly for over a DECADE!!! Look, I know everyone has their favorites but, Patrick has had a Hall Of Fame worthy career and I find your comments disrespectful.

I'm not trying to preach, but I've seen rude comments about Patrick in the past and I will never understand why. If he's not your cup of tea, talk about someone else for goodness sake...

sometimes i wish i could give 1000 thumbs up ^^

mrrice said:

Chuckm, Assuming they take the top 24 into the free program, there are 21 other skaters who will not be on the podium. Are you saying they should all just stay at home and not try. Patrick is representing the country of Canada and has done so proudly for over a DECADE!!! Look, I know everyone has their favorites but, Patrick has had a Hall Of Fame worthy career and I find your comments disrespectful.

I'm not trying to preach, but I've seen rude comments about Patrick in the past and I will never understand why. If he's not your cup of tea, talk about someone else for goodness sake...

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4everchan said:

sometimes i wish i could give 1000 thumbs up ^^

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Let's do KAAAABBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OS said:

Sorry but I'd have to disagree. Being in control do require certain stiffness (centred core like ballet) and there are many ways to interpret a piece of music beyond the facial expressions, or an emotional one. You show a classically quiet sombre performance by Yo Yo Ma to someone who only ever listens to happy songs by the Bee Gees, they may be bored initially because they are not used to it , but it shouldn't stop them learning about classical music if they are open minded enough, and can learn to appreciate what is a superior version of the same performance, same music....and Vice Versa.

Patrick's best performance (FS in recent years) are very suited to the music in the classic genre, and he deserves the HIGHEST PCS when he delivers. I'd also argue he has also improved more in the PCS criteriors vs his peers in the refinement and subtlety that has not been seen in others, that should absolutely be valued among the connoisseurs of the sport who expect the highest standard of craftmanship within the confines of pure skating movements. For me at least, his FS this year is a complete gem. For starters, it has an original piece of music, and original choreography that doesn't feel reptitive and done for the sake of putting in quads, COP hacked layout for the sake of points scoring. Everything is put together with care and thoughtfulness and developed organically without ever feel 'packaged'.

Patrick's FS programs in recent years all feel like in search of something new and redefining beautiful skating and thus deserve all the accolades it gets. I wouldn't be surprised if it is his programs that last the ages among the skaters, where as Hanyu's FS feels like a marvelous spectacle, the sort of comeback with gravitas only Superstars like Yuzu can do. They should be celebrated for different reasons, but all bring their own unique quality to it.

I just pray there's no injuries this year. With Josh coming back, and Han Yan getting his shoulder issue sorted, we should have a very exciting men's year leading to the Olympics.

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Different performances calls out to different people. I'm fine with that. Patrick's performances aren't my favorite. Different for other people.

I do want to mention one thing though, that stuff about control and stiffness and ballet moves. Can we leave ballet out of Figure Skating completely. It is NOT the only way to control your body. It drives me nuts every time someone talks about how so and so have ballet training and shows and which is why they're so much better performance wise. I follow dancing a lot more than figure skating. Ballet is only ONE type of dancing genre. Have you seen Contemporary dancers? They are the OPPOSITE of stiff, but they have so much control and flexibility. I like to caveat that I danced ballet and other genre recreationally. Frankly, just incorporating some balletic movements, doesn't do much for me as far as figure skating goes.

While both Patrick and Nathan have good carriages in their shoulders (pushed back and in a straight line), and reflected in their lines as far as their arms, BOTH of them are often times too stiff in their upper body. Their stiffness actually limits the way they can express their body.

when I say I don't see different levels of expression, I'm talking more than facial expressions. After all, those of us in the cheap seats can't see their faces. That's why moving their entire body (including their upper body) is so important to convey emotions called out in the piece of music.

With that said, I do like the second half of Patrick's FS music. I like some of the leg movements that goes with it. However, both his SP and LP have very similar emotional note. I haven't seen too many of his programs over the years, but of the ones I've seen, it gives me the general impression of not a lot of range and depth as far as performance quality goes. When I say performance quality I'm not talking about SS, transition etc. I'm talking about Interpretation of music (his music is a bit too similar in tempo and tone), and performance.

Edit: as far as appreciation for classical music, most FS programs are set to Classical music. I'm actually trained in a few instruments and all we play are classical music. I'm not unfamiliar or have to get used to his music. I'm just saying he's not very adventurous as far as music styles go.

Just my opinion as a newbie to Men FS. I'm not a newbie as far as Women FS and Pairs though.

well i do agree with the spirit of competitive sports: faster, higher and stronger. it's double-edged weapon and will surely do harm to all sports players as a whole, and the theory is applicable to figure skating as well. But no judges in whichever sport can revert the spirit and turn to weaker difficulty. But i also do think Patrick is not jealous of anyone, and he's truly concerned with the imbalance between art and difficulty, and with the potential danger for young players

swiftlet said:

well i do agree with the spirit of competitive sports: faster, higher and stronger. it's double-edged weapon and will surely do harm to all sports players as a whole, and the theory is applicable to figure skating as well. But no judges in whichever sport can revert the spirit and turn to weaker difficulty. But i also do think Patrick is not jealous of anyone, and he's truly concerned with the imbalance between art and difficulty, and with the potential danger for young players

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asiacheetah said:

Different performances calls out to different people. I'm fine with that. Patrick's performances aren't my favorite. Different for other people.

I do want to mention one thing though, that stuff about control and stiffness and ballet moves. Can we leave ballet out of Figure Skating completely. It is NOT the only way to control your body. It drives me nuts every time someone talks about how so and so have ballet training and shows and which is why they're so much better performance wise. I follow dancing a lot more than figure skating. Ballet is only ONE type of dancing genre. Have you seen Contemporary dancers? They are the OPPOSITE of stiff, but they have so much control and flexibility. I like to caveat that I danced ballet and other genre recreationally. Frankly, just incorporating some balletic movements, doesn't do much for me as far as figure skating goes.

While both Patrick and Nathan have good carriages in their shoulders (pushed back and in a straight line), and reflected in their lines as far as their arms, BOTH of them are often times too stiff in their upper body. Their stiffness actually limits the way they can express their body.

when I say I don't see different levels of expression, I'm talking more than facial expressions. After all, those of us in the cheap seats can't see their faces. That's why moving their entire body (including their upper body) is so important to convey emotions called out in the piece of music.

With that said, I do like the second half of Patrick's FS music. I like some of the leg movements that goes with it. However, both his SP and LP have very similar emotional note. I haven't seen too many of his programs over the years, but of the ones I've seen, it gives me the general impression of not a lot of range and depth as far as performance quality goes. When I say performance quality I'm not talking about SS, transition etc. I'm talking about Interpretation of music (his music is a bit too similar in tempo and tone), and performance.

Edit: as far as appreciation for classical music, most FS programs are set to Classical music. I'm actually trained in a few instruments and all we play are classical music. I'm not unfamiliar or have to get used to his music. I'm just saying he's not very adventurous as far as music styles go.

Just my opinion as a newbie to Men FS. I'm not a newbie as far as Women FS and Pairs though.

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This is an interesting comment. I will speak from MY experience only. I was already a fairly decent dancer when I tried skating and there are certain things that just don't translate. Skates are incredibly rigid and no matter how hard you try, it's basically impossible to point in them. The biggest shock is how much heavier they were than any and dance shoe I had ever worn. I had danced in Hi-Top Reeboks which I thought were heavy but skates were many times heavier.

Of all the Male skater's that I have seen in person, I would say that Emanuel Sandhu is the most talented when it comes to dance ability. I would love to see him give a speech, followed by a question and answer session because there are a ton of questions I would ask him. As a trained ballet dancer who has seen Patrick Chan and Emanuel Sandhu in person, I would give flexibility to Eman and I'd give all other captions to Patrick. Especially Posture and Carriage. That's just my opinion. Unfortunately, I haven't been to live a event in a very long time and I have haven't seen Javi, Hanyu, or Nathan in person.

mrrice said:

This is an interesting comment. I will speak from MY experience only. I was already a fairly decent dancer when I tried skating and there are certain things that just don't translate. Of all the Male skater's that I have seen in person, I would say that Emanuel Sandhu is the most talented when it comes to dance ability. I would love to see him give a speech, followed by a question and answer session because there are a ton of questions I would ask him. As a trained ballet dancer who has seen Patrick Chan and Emanuel Sandhu in person, I would give flexibility to Eman and I'd give all other captions to Patrick. Especially Posture and Carriage. That's just my opinion.

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Jeremy Abbott and movement that is natural and translates. Enough said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyyF9VwUoh8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfa5B0UzshE&t=258s
And last but not least https://youtu.be/Hi6KDmWwdIE

asiacheetah said:

Different performances calls out to different people. I'm fine with that. Patrick's performances aren't my favorite. Different for other people.

I do want to mention one thing though, that stuff about control and stiffness and ballet moves. Can we leave ballet out of Figure Skating completely. It is NOT the only way to control your body.

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With that said, I do like the second half of Patrick's FS music. I like some of the leg movements that goes with it. However, both his SP and LP have very similar emotional note. I haven't seen too many of his programs over the years, but of the ones I've seen, it gives me the general impression of not a lot of range and depth as far as performance quality goes. When I say performance quality I'm not talking about SS, transition etc. I'm talking about Interpretation of music (his music is a bit too similar in tempo and tone), and performance.

Edit: as far as appreciation for classical music, most FS programs are set to Classical music. I'm actually trained in a few instruments and all we play are classical music. I'm not unfamiliar or have to get used to his music. I'm just saying he's not very adventurous as far as music styles go.

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:thumbsup: Preach to the choir believe me about ballet thing If it helps, I have described Patrick more like a Taichi master in his strong core (btw I took ballet, asian folk dancing, can play a number of instruments too.) Also stiffness relative to who, the pros and the cons. I find him less stiff than say Javier, Kevin Renold, most of the Russian guys + a whole lot of bunch of people. He is more controlled (he rarely throw away a move) than Hanyu as he is more bulkier athletically. Against the power couple Scott Moir, Guillaume Cizeron... who isn't? I didn't consider Patrick as a musical skater before but he is certainly above average, and most importantly he really has improved so much in recent years he has become among the top now. I find him become incredibly well suited and refined within a narrow parameter and I do appreciate the care and attention he put in choreography reacting to the music this quad.

As for this year's SP, agree somewhat in the sense I didn't find it unique enough, but it is hard to top Elegie. When you come up with a gem like that, everything can pale. (How I feel about Hanyu's programs after R&J Version 1) I will be really interested to see how he top his FS this year, I do hope he comes up with something new. Most people after a certain age, maturity naturally settles in their style and comfort zone. I can't imagine him in purple pants doing Prince at this stage in his career, but hey, never say never. Love me some Jeremy!!! My fav US men skater who is incredibly musical, but not enough strong core!! Magnet glued to the ice.

Wow - sure goes to show you can interpret a statement any way you want to.

I totally agree with Patrick and have been posting much the same for awhile now. We have no idea the toll multiple quads are taking on some of these young skaters and what their bodies are going to suffer when they're older. I would be all for the ISU limiting the quads and forcing some of these skaters to get back to the basics.

Lol this guy always complaining about something. I believe he is concerned about the impact many quads will have but I think the root of the complaining and his issues is he misses the days where he could make careless mistakes and still win based on artistry...now that many men have bypassed him technically those days are long gone and I say thank goodness for that

evasorange said:

Lol this guy always complaining about something. I believe he is concerned about the impact many quads will have but I think the root of the complaining and his issues is he misses the days where he could make careless mistakes and still win based on artistry...now that many men have bypassed him technically those days are long gone and I say thank goodness for that

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Inevitably there are always people who look to spin someone negatively even as others are discussing the content and the important issue raised.