Chan fears for skaters' health/quads | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

Anyasnake

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Mar 28, 2016
I didn't read all the thread but he is absolutely right. Chen hurt his hip last year and missed worlds. It could have been worse. Joshua and his concussions. Ankle injuries... FS is a very painful sport and if your bones aren't strong enough you're gonna regret it.

Doens't matter if Patrick is sincere or not, if he is making some publicity for himself or not, I don't care. But I don't want him to skip olympics because of an injury for practising too much quads. And this is for all the skaters. When you see Hanyu at gala practices throwning 20 quads every 30 minutes, knowing it can take just one to put you down, you DO wonder.

And the worst that could happen are concussions. Hip, ankle, knee, okay... but you need your head and your brain to live properly.
 
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chuckm

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Pairs skaters and ice dancers get concussions, too, and they don't do quad jumps. Kids get concussions with just basic skating---that's why helmets are required in NJ for kids in skating rinks.

No one forces skaters into the sport, or makes them do quads. Those who do the hardest jumps so them because they want to be competitive. I am sure they are well aware of the risks.
 

Violet Bliss

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Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I didn't read all the thread but he is absolutely right. Chen hurt his hip last year and missed worlds. It could have been worse. Joshua and his concussions. Ankle injuries... FS is a very painful sport and if your bones aren't strong enough you're gonna regret it.

Doens't matter if Patrick is sincere or not, if he is making some publicity for himself or not, I don't care. But I don't want him to skip olympics because of an injury for practising too much quads. And this is for all the skaters. When you see Hanyu at gala practices throwning 20 quads every 30 minutes, knowing it can take just one to put you down, you DO wonder.

And the worst that could happen are concussions. Hip, ankle, knee, okay... but you need your head and your brain to live properly.

Among those having suffered injuries by quad practices are, besides those you mentioned, some of the most talented skaters in the world - Jason Brown, Misha Ge, Denis Ten, etc., and who knows how many others including very promising juniors? Even those with the most facilitating build who make it look easy face uncertain long term consequences.

Injury prevention and looking after the welfare of the athletes are also responsibilities of the relevant sport organization besides promoting the sport and its progress.
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
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Dec 21, 2014
I don't think there is anything wrong with voicing the risks excessively training quads has- especially on young bodies. The amount of force that bones absorb with these jumps is significant, especially repetitively. That said, limiting quads in the freeskate will not change anything as skaters will still train them the same.

It sounds like what may need to change is balancing the point values better to reward difficult spinning and footwork a little more- I'm not saying it should be worth the same as a quad, but I do think it could be worth more.

There is actually an argument going on currently in the adult skating community that is opposite of this. For adults, axels, and double salchows are usually the most difficult jumps you see in a program, but in the same program you may see level 3 and 4 spins. A level 4 spin is worth a lot more than an axel in points and a lot of adult skaters are frustrated that adult competitions are essentially spin competitions.
 

silverfoxes

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Feb 16, 2014
No one forces skaters into the sport, or makes them do quads. Those who do the hardest jumps so them because they want to be competitive. I am sure they are well aware of the risks.

No, but we now have young teenagers or even a 10-year-old(!) in Stephen Gogolev's case (when he started) training quads and how are they supposed to understand the longterm potential effects? A kid that age isn't able to make a lot of other decisions for themselves, legally. It's true you can get injured doing anything, but now junior men are being expected to learn quads earlier & earlier, and do more of them. I wonder how much information parents are given about the risks before they allow their minors to train such difficult elements.
 

mrrice

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Jul 9, 2014
I don't think there is anything wrong with voicing the risks excessively training quads has- especially on young bodies. The amount of force that bones absorb with these jumps is significant, especially repetitively. That said, limiting quads in the freeskate will not change anything as skaters will still train them the same.

It sounds like what may need to change is balancing the point values better to reward difficult spinning and footwork a little more- I'm not saying it should be worth the same as a quad, but I do think it could be worth more.

There is actually an argument going on currently in the adult skating community that is opposite of this. For adults, axels, and double salchows are usually the most difficult jumps you see in a program, but in the same program you may see level 3 and 4 spins. A level 4 spin is worth a lot more than an axel in points and a lot of adult skaters are frustrated that adult competitions are essentially spin competitions.

Exactly, even if they limit the amount of quads, the skaters will try something equally as difficult and hard on their bodies. Should they limit a skater to 3 quads. I can see them back loading and adding Tano's to the quads they have which will be just as hard on the body as things are now. IMO, It's called a free program for a reason and though it may take time, the sport will figure out a way to reward the best skaters no matter what the rules are.
 

epicdreamer

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 25, 2016
I did wonder why Patrick didn't train other quads, was it because of this? I always thought it was because he thought he wouldn't need it since it was likely he'd win in Sochi with just the toe-loop and be able to retire with that. I know he's said something wanting to have an active lifestyle after skating but it was kind of weird to me that Patrick (and Javi) didn't push themselves so much technically once they got to the top tier. This kind of explains it.

It's also kinda funny how Yuzuru is always in the middle. Doing quads like the youngsters but introducing them slowly throughout the years like an old timer. So weird to think he had the forethought even in his early senior years that by Pyeongchang there'd be programmes with a quad lutz at the start and a toe-loop after the halfway point 😂

I do wish the sQuad would pace themselves better at least. It's so true that no one knows the impact of all these quads especially when trained from a young age. That's what makes it more scary! Why did they lift the ban for juniors?
 

Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
I did wonder why Patrick didn't train other quads, was it because of this? I always thought it was because he thought he wouldn't need it since it was likely he'd win in Sochi with just the toe-loop and be able to retire with that. I know he's said something wanting to have an active lifestyle after skating but it was kind of weird to me that Patrick (and Javi) didn't push themselves so much technically once they got to the top tier. This kind of explains it.

It's also kinda funny how Yuzuru is always in the middle. Doing quads like the youngsters but introducing them slowly throughout the years like an old timer. So weird to think he had the forethought even in his early senior years that by Pyeongchang there'd be programmes with a quad lutz at the start and a toe-loop after the halfway point 😂

I do wish the sQuad would pace themselves better at least. It's so true that no one knows the impact of all these quads especially when trained from a young age. That's what makes it more scary! Why did they lift the ban for juniors?

Welcome to the forum, epicdreamer! Post long, post often, have fun!

After a period of quads not being valued enough under the COP system for the risk, Patrick actually started a new wave of complete programs with both difficult footwork and quads. Hanyu is a little younger and in between Chan and the newer generation. He followed and excelled in this new era of footwork + quads but as an extraordinary talent with the right body build as well as the ambitious mindset, he started doing more quads than anybody ever did, making shockingly high records when he is on and at his best. He and his success then in turn became the new model showing the scoring power of quads, motivating the new wave of multiple quad jumping youngsters. However, both because of their age and the emphasis on quads, the young quad kings have not been able to bring the kind of balanced program like Chan and his contemporaries, e.g. Takahashi and Fernandez, do. So Hanyu is the segue from, and the epitome of, excellent footwork with multiple quads. The pendulum has now swung to quad mania. Meanwhile, the accompanying increased injuries to elite and aspiring skaters have caused concerns, including those by Patrick as he returned to a completely changed competitive field. I am glad he is open to speak about it as a luminous veteran nearing retirement.

As I expressed in earlier posts, Chan did push himself and devoted years to the performance aspect based on his ideal of figure skating, i.e. a balance of athleticism and artistry, which is shared by many. It's just that such effort is not acknowledged nor rewarded under the current scoring system where quads trump everything.

As it is, both the health of the athletes and the balanced nature of this sport are worrisome to many people.
 

epicdreamer

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 25, 2016
thank you for the eloquent reply!

yeah I totally understand the scenario you laid out and agree with everything you said completely! Tho I still feel in some ways that Patrick sort of plateaued for a couple of years around Sochi in terms of progressing technically, or at least didn't make any new leaps - which is such a contrast to how people are preparing for the upcoming Olympics. Times truly have changed!

I guess Yuzuru is lucky enough to be able to see the two pictures without pulling too much on either side.

I wish the ISU would encourage the kind of progression Patrick started with the whole balanced programme that you mentioned. Like as much as I love seeing the technical progression of jumps, advancing in other aspects shouldn't just be forgotten as if they weren't as important :/
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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I didn't read all the thread but he is absolutely right. Chen hurt his hip last year and missed worlds. It could have been worse. Joshua and his concussions. Ankle injuries... FS is a very painful sport and if your bones aren't strong enough you're gonna regret it.

Joshua broke his ankle doing a triple Axel. Should we ban those now too?

I'm sure Chan's motivation for his concern about this is the same as it was for his concern about the ice in Boston. :sarcasm:
 

4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Joshua broke his ankle doing a triple Axel. Should we ban those now too?

I'm sure Chan's motivation for his concern about this is the same as it was for his concern about the ice in Boston. :sarcasm:

oh please.... Patrick is not only talking about accidents which can happen in any ways and forms like slipping on a banana peel :party2:

Patrick is talking about the wear and tear. When I went to Nationals, I was fortunate enough to sit among a crowd of "older ladies" who all had dedicated years to the sport... and all of them had small or heavy limps... and were all joking about what the years skating and jumping had done to their bodies... I didn't feel any regrets from them, but it is a reality... I am sure most of these ladies never trained quads and perhaps not even triples.

The truth is that the impact on the ligaments and articulations is exponentially higher when doing quads, so the wear and tear on the body risks to be considerably higher... but we don't really know yet do we? These ladies were in their late 50s early 60s... it could take us 30 years before we find out that some of our beloved quadsters are in wheel chairs....

It's time that someone speaks up about the situation. And yes, the ice in Boston was also terrible and I am glad that Patrick spoke up about that too.

I am convinced that many of the athletes respect Patrick for his no nonsense approach when it comes to health. It's too bad that some of the fans paint such a petty and vile picture of him. As a veteran, he is more equipped to share his concerns.
 
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chuckm

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Aug 31, 2003
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He'd be respected more if he didn't make disparaging remarks about other skaters' 'artistry'. That makes his 'concerns' about quads seem rather self-serving.
 

Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
He'd be respected more if he didn't make disparaging remarks about other skaters' 'artistry'. That makes his 'concerns' about quads seem rather self-serving.

You would be respected more if you didn't always make exclusively disparaging remarks about Chan and other Canadian skaters. That makes you seem rather obsessive and your "opinions" rather agenda and hate based.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
oh please.... Patrick is not only talking about accidents which can happen in any ways and forms like slipping on a banana peel :party2:

Patrick is talking about the wear and tear. When I went to Nationals, I was fortunate enough to sit among a crowd of "older ladies" who all had dedicated years to the sport... and all of them had small or heavy limps... and were all joking about what the years skating and jumping had done to their bodies... I didn't feel any regrets from them, but it is a reality... I am sure most of these ladies never trained quads and perhaps not even triples.

The truth is that the impact on the ligaments and articulations is exponentially higher when doing quads, so the wear and tear on the body risks to be considerably higher... but we don't really yet do we? These ladies were in their late 50s early 60s... it could take us 30 years before we find out that some of our beloved quadsters are in wheel chairs....

It's time that someone speaks up about the situation. And yes, the ice in Boston was also terrible and I am glad that Patrick spoke up about that too.

I am convinced that many of the athletes respect Patrick for his no nonsense approach when it comes to health. It's too bad that some of the fans paint such a petty and vile picture of him. As a veteran, he is more equipped to share his concerns.

I have absolutely no doubt that this is true and professional dancers are the same way. Ginger Rogers, Ann Miller, and Gwen Verdon ALL talked about the toll that dancing for hours on set in 4inch heels took on their bodies. When we toured in Russia, although I loved it. We performed in Hockey Rinks and as you can imagine, it was always cold. I was singing on this tour but our dancers frequently complained that they were freezing. They wore huge robes when they were waiting back stage and our bus stunk like Deep Heat..24hours a day. Deep Heat is self heating rub that is good for sore muscles...Here's the Commercial....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5-TPvdOFJE
 
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mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Pairs skaters and ice dancers get concussions, too, and they don't do quad jumps. Kids get concussions with just basic skating---that's why helmets are required in NJ for kids in skating rinks.
No one forces skaters into the sport, or makes them do quads. Those who do the hardest jumps so them because they want to be competitive. I am sure they are well aware of the risks.

I get what you're saying however, Football players in the US and Canada, used to play in leather helmets until there were so many players getting concussions that they finally switched them to a hard plastic.

Here's the original version. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...px-Leather_football_helmet_(circa_1930's).JPG

Here's what they play in now. http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/02...ACK_FOOTBALL_HELMET_large.jpg?v\x3d1469817220

We all realize that skating with all it's beauty, can be very dangerous. What Patrick is trying to avoid is seeing the sport become "Reckless." IMO there's a big difference between the two. He wants to see the sport evolve and I am frankly surprised to see him getting backlash for showing concern about the skaters and their health. After all, even if he were to get the rules to change, he would likely be retired before the new rules took effect. It seems quite unselfish to me.
 
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sublimeskating

Crouching Dreamer, Hidden Badass
On the Ice
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Feb 24, 2017
Chan is right to voice concern for skaters' health. He's careful about his own, for now and for his life after the competitive skating career. He will retire soon and will likely survive the tolls quads take on his body better than most, as we know there are elite skaters being injured trying to land their quads, both while learning it and during attempts in practice and in competitions. It is particularly worthy of concerns with growing teenagers doing so many of them day in and day out, even if they are the ones making it look easy and pushing others with less advantageous body builds to do the same.

Doing a quad takes great force and momentum but the greatest risk is with the landing. While joggers land with 2.5 times, and volleyball and basketball players land with 3 to 4 times, their body weight, a quad jumping skater lands with 7 to 10 times his body weight and has to absorb the impact through a thin blade on hard ice. We all know about injuries due to jogging on pavement. The quad landing can be 10 times riskier.

In explaining The physics behind figure skating’s most difficult jump, the dangers of repetitive landing difficult jumps is brought up:



Repetitive high impact movements almost always end up with injuries if one is not careful, thus all the different ailments from different sports. Lucinda Ruh, the world's greatest spinners on ice, ended her career and is still suffering, with concussions. I know of someone whose life was ruined with great pain and disability after impressive success in programming business due to overworking the mouse for a couple of years.

Few skaters are in a position to speak up about this issue even as they are pushed into injuring themselves to catch up somewhat to the few top ranking prodigies. Kudos to Chan to voice his concerns, no doubt shared silently by many.



I agree with the danger of quads on the body....and how one can feel invincible during teenage years and do irreversible damage.
I hope the scoring system will change soon, to give more emphasis to other areas of skating and rebalance the scale a bit.
However, IF Chan had skated a clean LP. IF Javi had skated a clean LP, they both would have been on the podium at worlds and well-rounded skaters/performers like Javi and Patrick are still being rewarded for the well-roundedness. The podium could have been Javi/Yuzu/Patrick. Please skate clean guys!
And I hope we see a more balanced scoring system come of this BEFORE anyone gets seriously injured.



Among those having suffered injuries by quad practices are, besides those you mentioned, some of the most talented skaters in the world - Jason Brown, Misha Ge, Denis Ten, etc., and who knows how many others including very promising juniors? Even those with the most facilitating build who make it look easy face uncertain long term consequences.

Injury prevention and looking after the welfare of the athletes are also responsibilities of the relevant sport organization besides promoting the sport and its progress.





I get what you're saying however, Football players in the US and Canada, used to play in leather helmets until there were so many players getting concussions that they finally switched them to a hard plastic.

Here's the original version. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...px-Leather_football_helmet_(circa_1930's).JPG

Here's what they play in now. http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/02...ACK_FOOTBALL_HELMET_large.jpg?v\x3d1469817220

We all realize that skating with all it's beauty, can be very dangerous. What Patrick is trying to avoid is seeing the sport become "Reckless." IMO there's a big difference between the two. He wants to see the sport evolve and I am frankly surprised to see him getting backlash for showing concern about the skaters and their health. After all, even if he were to get the rules to change, he would likely be retired before the new rules took effect. It seems quite unselfish to me.



As much as I love seeing quads, I gotta agree with Patrick on this and I applaud him for speaking up!

Quads are amazing but there's a disturbing trend of seeing younger and younger skaters doing quads and also the competitive field become more and more focused on quads.

There is more to skating than just quads quads quads.

Also the build up of stress on the body from quads can be quite damaging. Patrick is right to point out the risks from this. He knows what he's talking about and he's just showing concern for the new generation of skaters. As rightly mentioned, he'll most likely be retired before any rules come into effect, so I think he's doing a good deed here in trying to make people realize that this risky trend shouldn't be encouraged and that something should be done about it...

I mean, at the rate this is going, we'll probably be seeing like 7 quads in a FS or something and not only is that dangerous for the skater, it also takes away from the well-rounded variety that makes beautiful skating.
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
I'm sure Chan's motivation for his concern about this is the same as it was for his concern about the ice in Boston. :sarcasm:

Motivation is subjective, but you cannot deny that on both ocassions, he was right...
 

sublimeskating

Crouching Dreamer, Hidden Badass
On the Ice
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Feb 24, 2017
Motivation is subjective, but you cannot deny that on both ocassions, he was right...

I agree.

I think Patrick is right on both occasions and kudos to him for speaking out.

He's already a veteran in the sport who's achieved many great things, and as previously mentioned, even if changes do happen they will probably be after he has retired. I think he's right to speak out and he's probably saying what many people are thinking but don't want to say out loud...
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Joshua broke his ankle doing a triple Axel. Should we ban those now too?

I'm sure Chan's motivation for his concern about this is the same as it was for his concern about the ice in Boston. :sarcasm:

I'm saying that repeating quad after quad everyday might affect your health, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Nathan ends up with a hip replacement, and I really hope not.
I never said that anything should be banned. I just said that Patrick is right, whatever his intentions are.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Motivation is subjective, but you cannot deny that on both ocassions, he was right...

Everything Patrick says is a bashing opportunity for some people. If he is wrong he is ripped to pieces. When he is right, his motive is focused upon as self serving or malicious.
 
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