Chan fears for skaters' health/quads | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

VIETgrlTerifa

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Jul 26, 2003
After reading the article, Patrick comes off well until the part where he mentioned Uno and Boyang. That comment could easily and understandably be seen as disparaging what they bring to the sport, even if others disagree. The author's "rolls eyes" observation can also be seen negatively, but in context I don't think Patrick was rolling his eyes AT Hanyu but more of the idea of skaters now having to do quints to compete because quads and triples are seriously difficult enough for everyone while having a well-balanced program. I do think whether one agrees with what he says or is suspicious of why he is saying it, I do think he came off well outside the two above items. He wasn't making any real declarations here, but seems to be more pondering about the health issue with doing quads in repetition in training and in competition and whether the ISU should limit quads for safety. He actually didn't make a declaration one way or the other.
 

Violet Bliss

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After reading the article, Patrick comes off well until the part where he mentioned Uno and Boyang. That comment could easily and understandably be seen as disparaging what they bring to the sport, even if others disagree. The author's "rolls eyes" observation can also be seen negatively, but in context I don't think Patrick was rolling his eyes AT Hanyu but more of the idea of skaters now having to do quints to compete because quads and triples are seriously difficult enough for everyone while having a well-balanced program. I do think whether one agrees with what he says or is suspicious of why he is saying it, I do think he came off well outside the two above items. He wasn't making any real declarations here, but seems to be more pondering about the health issue with doing quads in repetition in training and in competition and whether the ISU should limit quads for safety. He actually didn't make a declaration one way or the other.

I just don't understand the compulsion to examine his motive every time he says something or that his fans are compelled to defend him and be damned for so doing, albeit this is not a good example since the harsh words have actually been minimal. When he raises issues worth our attention, I wish we could just discuss them instead of his character.
 

Elaine666

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Patrick brought up something deserve a good discussion but I dont think it will dram much attention in present unless we hear more and more serious injuries due to quads attempting. Will more quads possibly shorten a skater's career life? We will have to wait till the end of next era to find out. TBH you cannot stop skaters to push the technical bar, but certainly judges could have done better in terms of points rewarding, both GOE and PCS-wise. In a perfect world skaters would be encouraged to improve the quality of programs gradually not just to increase the quantity of quads:confused2: But why not? Under current circumstance? Special "kudos" to judges for sending the right message!
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
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Nov 12, 2013
Everything Patrick says is a bashing opportunity for some people. If he is wrong he is ripped to pieces. When he is right, his motive is focused upon as self serving or malicious.

Which is so easy to do from behind a keyboard. But imagine the silence if all FS forum critics were to repeat their words to the skaters' faces. ;)
 

Rissa

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Dec 11, 2014
A bit off-topic: I really wish some people would join, for example One Direction fandom, or go through old American Idol boards, and actually learn what "bashing" is. Geez, people who "bash" Patrick here are doing it so wrong.
 

mrrice

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Jul 9, 2014
I just don't understand the compulsion to examine his motive every time he says something or that his fans are compelled to defend him and be damned for so doing, albeit this is not a good example since the harsh words have actually been minimal. When he raises issues worth our attention, I wish we could just discuss them instead of his character.

I'm going to be perfectly frank here. I DO NOT CARE what motivated Patrick to speak up as long as he was telling the truth. When I was touring for Coca Cola, we often had to stay after a performance to meet and shake hands with the executives. There were times when we'd finish a show at 10pm and then we were "Sent" to an after party where we were expected to socialize with the executives and their families. If we hadn't just performed our show and didn't have to be up at 7am to catch a bus to the next town, it would not have been a big deal. At times, it was just too much. I remember saying that we were paid for our performances and that if we were expected to do these meet and greets, that we should be paid for them because they were not part of our contract.

I said these things in private to our show director and a couple of days later, I got a letter from the producers saying that if I was unhappy, I could leave the tour......I tried to explain to them just how tiring it was to stay up that late, get up early, and be expected to sleep on the bus as we traveled to the next city. We didn't have sleeper buses, they were basically Greyhound buses with Coca Cola on the side of them. Now, like Patrick, I was no spring chicken and I would rather have left the tour, than be treated like cattle. Some of the cast thought I was crazy for speaking up but, my complaint worked and from that moment on, all executive meet and greets were done the day after the show instead of the same night. He may not benefit from his request but, I have nothing but praise and respect for him speaking up for his fellow athletes.
 
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gravy

¿No ven quién soy yo?
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Mar 28, 2014
I just don't understand the compulsion to examine his motive every time he says something or that his fans are compelled to defend him and be damned for so doing, albeit this is not a good example since the harsh words have actually been minimal. When he raises issues worth our attention, I wish we could just discuss them instead of his character.

Then maybe he shouldn't give people a reason to critique his character. I agree with @VIETgrlTerifa in that he brought up a great point, but when he has to drag Uno and Jin into this as if they're somehow beneath him, it is a distraction and it's hard not to take his views as sour grapes or "vintage whine" (as Phil Hersh so lovingly put it). I'd be willing to just let it slide but he has a history of denigrating other skaters and their accomplishments since way back in 2009 (and often when he's bitter that he didn't win).

I also don't see the problem with admitting that his views on quads being dangerous are valid while also acknowledging that the way he articulates his thoughts make him come off as a sore loser. Are people not able to multitask in this day and age?



I read the article, but not this entire thread so I don't know whether this has been talked about. Limiting quads in a program will do almost nothing for the safety of athletes. Everyone's just gonna end up doing the hardest quads anyway. The ISU enacting a limit on them also won't have any consequences on skaters doing them over and over again in their daily training sessions at home.

I do think it's stupid to cap difficulty though since this is first and foremost a sport. And why only quads though? Radford busted his hip before Worlds and he doesn't do anything harder than a 3Lz. Should we ban those too? His partner doesn't seem to think the ISU should ban anything because it's their choice whether or not to do the harder tricks. Czisny, Kirk, and Kwan also had chronic hip problems... should we ban the jumps that they did too?

I'll end by just saying that I also agree with @evangeline on the first page; the ISU isn't going to do anything about it (and rightly so, IMO).
 

Interspectator

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Dec 25, 2012
To rebalance the scale a bit while at the same time, not limiting quads if skaters wish to do them, the scoring system could be tweaked in some of the following ways:
-Quads could have less points attached to them. This happens in gymnastics every few years. -If a move is so common that many athletes are doing them, they are then given less points.
-Cumulative deductions for mistakes on jumping passes, encouraging clean elements, but not discouraging difficulty.
-An emphasis on conservative scoring in PCS AND GOE, and not having a 'quad boost' in PCS just because you can do multiple quads in a program.
 

Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
Then maybe he shouldn't give people a reason to critique his character. I agree with @VIETgrlTerifa in that he brought up a great point, but when he has to drag Uno and Jin into this as if they're somehow beneath him, it is a distraction and it's hard not to take his views as sour grapes or "vintage whine" (as Phil Hersh so lovingly put it). I'd be willing to just let it slide but he has a history of denigrating other skaters and their accomplishments since way back in 2009 (and often when he's bitter that he didn't win).

I also don't see the problem with admitting that his views on quads being dangerous are valid while also acknowledging that the way he articulates his thoughts make him come off as a sore loser. Are people not able to multitask in this day and age?

While some fans are outraged for skaters whom they insist Patrick has slighted, the fact is he is well liked by fellow skaters. Those who have been around him become friends and have the best to say about him. It just goes to show judging someone from snips of reports and edited spoken words can be very far off reality. Patrick seems to be a favorite subject for some people to focus on seeking out and seeing negative character traits. Inevitably there are interest and focus on judging him and discrediting his words even when they merit consideration. It is distracting, just as Patrick is criticized for doing.

I don't understand the keen interest/need/rights to find negative in someone to disapprove. Fault finding people often appear judgemental and less admirable than their criticized subjects. I can't stop people from their favorite activities and propensities. I only said I wish there would be less judging and more attention on the content uttered and being discussed. Over time in this forum I have defended various skaters from rash and harsh judgements, including those I don't have a particular affinity for. It's just my own proclivities to like everybody to enjoy their own fandom and to dislike harsh criticisms with no real basis, especially against young talented dedicated people who bring us joy and entertain us.
 
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karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Motivation is subjective, but you cannot deny that on both ocassions, he was right...

Really? Because I'm pretty sure that he was the only one out of the six men in that free skate group who complained about the ice. He wasn't the only one who served up a pile of slop for a free skate, but he was the only one using it as an excuse. Funnily enough, Javier didn't seem to have any issues with the ice.
 

4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
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Really? Because I'm pretty sure that he was the only one out of the six men in that free skate group who complained about the ice. He wasn't the only one who served up a pile of slop for a free skate, but he was the only one using it as an excuse. Funnily enough, Javier didn't seem to have any issues with the ice.

this has been explained over and over... why do you bring this up again?

1) the ice was awful... only a blind person wouldn't be able to tell...
2) some athletes are more outspoken than others. Patrick is. He also speaks Enligh as a native language so he talks more openly and freely to the press.
3) if an athlete doesn't mention the conditions, it doesn't mean the conditions were good. It means that either someone else has already had the courage of doing the tough job.
4) Patrick complained about the ice in Taiwan at 4cc... the technicians adjusted it and Patrick acknowledged them saying the ice was perfect for the LPs. You have to give credit where is due : bad ice conditions means danger for everyone. Patrick is speaking up for everyone here. At TDF this year, very bad ice... well.. that's where Gabby Daleman fell perhaps the only time this year on her money combo... and if I recall Medvedeva herself struggled on a 2a in the same spot.
5) Why would Javier complain about the ice : he cannot. He won. It would be bad sport to whine when you are winning. I don't think Patrick was being a sore loser here. He just felt that the conditions prevented him to skate how well he was prepared to do... he had just had a flawless run at 4cc and was ready like never before to skate clean.
6) I find it funny when some people just choose to remember what pleases them : Patrick explained that in his case, all the jumps were planned where the ice was melting, in the end of the rink ... he noticed that for some other skaters, including Javi, their jumping passes were not all put in the same area... He said that it is something he would address in the future with his team, so that he can still have the space to jump. So no, Javi wasn't affected by the puddle because he didn't jump right in the middle of it.

hope that refreshes your memory.
 
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karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Well I hope to refresh your memory 4everchan...

The ice at TdF - which was appalling and dangerous - was in no way comparable to the ice at Boston, which merely had a slightly wet sheen - in front of the judges, not at any end where Chan was doing his jumps.

Hanyu and Uno owned responsibility for their poor performances in that event; Chan blamed the ice.
 

novalisa

Match Penalty
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Jan 30, 2017
Everything Patrick says is a bashing opportunity for some people. If he is wrong he is ripped to pieces. When he is right, his motive is focused upon as self serving or malicious.

what I see is that everytime he is critisized, his fans see it as hate and bashing. Most of us are saying that he is right in his concern and kudos to him for speaking up BUT the way he singles out himself and javi, ( he used to say pretty lame stuff about javi) the way he completely dismisses the youngter's ( especially shoma's) artistic potential and that whole talk about susbtance vs style, it's total nonsense, he is a bit arrogant and lacks sportsmanship, though he does his best to hide this, it comes out in these interviews and we have the right to criticize him. It's sad to see javi following in chan's footseps with the bitter comments this year, really shattered that whole nice guy image to me
they could both take a page from hanyu's book, the guy never mentions injury when he loses ( though one could argue he lost 2 WC because of injury) nor does he ever mention other excuses after the competition and he always praises youngsters and veterans alike, the same can be said about many other champions because true champions are humble.
 

4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Well I hope to refresh your memory 4everchan...

The ice at TdF - which was appalling and dangerous - was in no way comparable to the ice at Boston, which merely had a slightly wet sheen - in front of the judges, not at any end where Chan was doing his jumps.

Hanyu and Uno owned responsibility for their poor performances in that event; Chan blamed the ice.

at this point karne, all i can think of is that i have never heard you say anything positive about Patrick, so i will just choose my battles here and move on. I trust an athlete like Patrick, with all his experience and legacy, who is so extremely genuine in his interaction with the press, before I trust your judgment of the situation. Patrick has had rough skates throughout his career and he is the first to blame himself when something is off. This time, he felt the ice wasn't safe for him and that's why he didn't go for the big jumps. He had no leverage and power. Many experts have explained that since he skates with much deeper edges than most the state of the ice is more of a factor for him than for others.

YMMV but it's the end of the road for me ;)
 

novalisa

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Jan 30, 2017
I'd be willing to just let it slide but he has a history of denigrating other skaters and their accomplishments since way back in 2009 (and often when he's bitter that he didn't win).

Exactly, it's not like people have no reason to question his motivation
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
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Nov 12, 2013
Really? Because I'm pretty sure that he was the only one out of the six men in that free skate group who complained about the ice. He wasn't the only one who served up a pile of slop for a free skate, but he was the only one using it as an excuse. Funnily enough, Javier didn't seem to have any issues with the ice.

Yes, really. The quality of the ice was not good, and just because Chan was the only one who complained doesn't make it any less of a fact. The others just chose not to comment, but that was their choice.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
( though one could argue he lost 2 WC because of injury)

Firstly, let's give credit to Javier for lighting it up and THAT is the primary reason Hanyu lost those 2 Worlds. Also, in 2016, he nailed his SP, so clearly injury wasn't affecting him too adversely, lol.

Secondly, one could argue he won 2 WC because he was given generous PCS (particularly his 2014 SP)... although, like Javier, he delivered practically clean comeback freeskates to earn the win. (IMO, WC2017 was definitely deserved, but Machida deserved to win 2014 Worlds -- unfortunately for him, he wasn't the Japanese #1 who had just won an OGM).

Thirdly, you're absolutely right. HE never mentions injury when he loses. Although it'd be swell if other folks spared us the whole pre-competition: "If he's healthy, he'll win" + post-competition: "What? He didn't win?! His health must have been compromised" rhetoric. :sarcasm:
 
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Bluediamonds09

Medalist
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
I don't want the skaters injured because of so many quads. Unfortunately, until multiple skaters start missing seasons due to injury, the ISU won't do anything about it.
I think the limit should be three quads.
 
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