Chan fears for skaters' health/quads | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
With Patrick and his comments it can always go two ways. I think Patrick's brain to mouth filter sometimes gets a little slow. I don't think he stops often to consider how his comments will be seen by people if they aren't in his corner to begin with. Even I, who consider myself to be a fan of Patrick's (although not a superfan) has been a little put off by some of his comments. (I'm thinking especially about his one about skating for China) The fact of the matter is that sometimes Patrick does seem like he's making excuses for himself. I'm not saying that his is. I'm saying it seems that way.

In the case of quads I'd rather see the system rebalanced to reflect whatever it is that the ISU wants skating to look like. If they want it to be a jumping contest then leave it alone otherwise they need to get in there and fix the PCS situation.

Total package skating should, in my opinion, always be rewarded. Hanyu and Shoma are total package skaters and both Chan and Javier are also. They, all 4, have beautiful jumps and beautiful skating. Everyone else seems to be more one or the other. I think Chen and Jin have the potential to be great skaters. Both are so young. I also see Jason Browne as having such great potential but if he doesn't get the quads he's going to be left behind. It's sad but it's way it is. Kolyada is another one that I think has great potential. I'm also looking forward to seeing what Deniss can pull off in his career.
 

Bluediamonds09

Medalist
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
With Patrick and his comments it can always go two ways. I think Patrick's brain to mouth filter sometimes gets a little slow. I don't think he stops often to consider how his comments will be seen by people if they aren't in his corner to begin with. Even I, who consider myself to be a fan of Patrick's (although not a superfan) has been a little put off by some of his comments. (I'm thinking especially about his one about skating for China) The fact of the matter is that sometimes Patrick does seem like he's making excuses for himself. I'm not saying that his is. I'm saying it seems that way.

In the case of quads I'd rather see the system rebalanced to reflect whatever it is that the ISU wants skating to look like. If they want it to be a jumping contest then leave it alone otherwise they need to get in there and fix the PCS situation.

Total package skating should, in my opinion, always be rewarded. Hanyu and Shoma are total package skaters and both Chan and Javier are also. They, all 4, have beautiful jumps and beautiful skating. Everyone else seems to be more one or the other. I think Chen and Jin have the potential to be great skaters. Both are so young. I also see Jason Browne as having such great potential but if he doesn't get the quads he's going to be left behind. It's sad but it's way it is. Kolyada is another one that I think has great potential. I'm also looking forward to seeing what Deniss can pull off in his career.

Lol, it's like we're thinking the same 😀 I'm also very excited about Denniss vasiljevs. He and Stephane are adorable are they not? Hoping the best for Jason, but those quads seem to be his nemesis. And I also like Kolyada.
 

narcissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Also, in 2016, he nailed his SP, so clearly injury wasn't affecting him too adversely, lol.

Um, yes it damn was, it's actually a bit infuriating to hear someone say this because it shows they know nothing (or really don't care) about what Yuzuru went through around 2016 World's at all. It was his most serious and almost career ending injury to date.
 
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Maria Victoria

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Um, yes it damn was, it's actually a bit infuriating to hear someone say this because it shows they know nothing (or really don't care) about what Yuzuru went through around 2016 World's at all. It was his most serious and almost career ending injury to date.

Yes it was. wasn't it? He'd lace his skating boots so tight to numb the pain, which he was feeling even at the time of 2015 GPF, where he set records. I have to shake my head when I read he even wondered why he was not able to perform well through the pain when he had been able to do so before. Thankfully, I think he learned something from that experience of having an injury of that nature.

To return to the topic of the thread, I agree with previous posts that rather than limit quads (FS is a sport after all), there should be more value given to other elements and components so that well-rounded programs will be the ones most rewarded; and that skaters should know their limits and train intelligently as what Patrick is apparently doing.
 

novalisa

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Firstly, let's give credit to Javier for lighting it up and THAT is the primary reason Hanyu lost those 2 Worlds. Also, in 2016, he nailed his SP, so clearly injury wasn't affecting him too adversely, lol.

Secondly, one could argue he won 2 WC because he was given generous PCS (particularly his 2014 SP)... although, like Javier, he delivered practically clean comeback freeskates to earn the win. (IMO, WC2017 was definitely deserved, but Machida deserved to win 2014 Worlds -- unfortunately for him, he wasn't the Japanese #1 who had just won an OGM).

Thirdly, you're absolutely right. HE never mentions injury when he loses. Although it'd be swell if other folks spared us the whole pre-competition: "If he's healthy, he'll win" + post-competition: "What? He didn't win?! His health must have been compromised" rhetoric. :sarcasm:
well you clearly don't know much about what happened prior to and during WC 2016 with hanyu so don't speak about something you don't know, the injury changed so much including his training, the choice of quads ect, I am not saying he would have won if he wasn't injured but we will never know, like we'll never know what would have happened if Nathan didn't have boot problems this year. The PCS inflation is your personal opinion
 

TryMeLater

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
My 2 Cents:

Quads are hard and take a toll on the body - and yes, as of right now there will be injuries. However in a few years the coaches will learn how to teach them properly with less risk of injuries.
Tarasova commented when Boyang Jin Landed the 4Lutz that coaches look to him as a test case - How to build a program with this difficulty, how much of a rest period is needed etc.
Yes, Right now it is dangerous - In a few years the skaters will be in a different place.
P.S to quote a commentator after Denise Bielmann landed her 3Lutz: "Women aren't supposed to be able to do that" - After almost 40 years - Guess What?
 

Lota

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
I agree with Patrick here, I think this is very much a transitional period that we are in right now, where everyone is kinda checking where the limits are. I think there will be changes limiting the number of quads, but not for a couple of years. And, as has been said, the teenagers do not fully understand the amount of strain they put on their bodies. They probably know they'll have problems later on and think they can handle it, but I don't think they understand just how bad the pain and the problems can/will get. And it is completely up to the coaches to oversee that the pressure isn't too much. Naturally, nobody knows what too much is at this point, and each athlete is different, but the coaches should try and find the right balance before rules that help them come into force.

And I'm also quite worried about the Pairs. While it isn't a quadfest out there (yet), it's becoming clear that, while you may medal, you cannot win without a quad. And the danger of quads in pairs, although also dangerous in the long run, is very imminent. So many ladies do not need to think about the possibility of pain in the future – they get hurt left and right trying to land quad throws and twists. It's just scary to see them fall :hopelessness:
 
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Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Um, yes it damn was, it's actually a bit infuriating to hear someone say this because it shows they know nothing (or really don't care) about what Yuzuru went through around 2016 World's at all. It was his most serious and almost career ending injury to date.

Just my opinion: I get it's annoying if people trivialize Javis wins as if they weren't deserved or something, just "because Yuzu was injured". I really don't like it either. It's unfair and dumb, because skaters are always injured, not in great shape for whatever reason, and of course the competitions and results still count (as they should). However, this complete trivializing of injuries is just as unfair and annoying - it's the same childish behavior, just the other direction. Especially with something like "he skated a good SP, obviously the injury wasn't that bad". That's... I don't even want to get into how little logic there is to that. It's perfectly fine if someone doesn't know about Yuzus injury back then, or when they "don't care", as in don't care to give it much thought. But actively trivializing it, that's a different thing. I'd think it's obvious that a bad injury can affect a skater very severely. That doesn't mean the skaters who beat them didn't do so deservedly, but very much yes, a bad injury affects a skater and can at least partly be a reason for why they didn't perform well. That benefit of the doubt should be given to everyone, IMO.
But what I'd also want to say: don't waste your time with this argument.
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Lol, it's like we're thinking the same 😀 I'm also very excited about Denniss vasiljevs. He and Stephane are adorable are they not? Hoping the best for Jason, but those quads seem to be his nemesis. And I also like Kolyada.

I think jumps have always been Jason's nemesis. He does seem to eventually get the jumps even if it takes him longer to master them relative to everyone else. Of course the quad is a different animal, but we'll see I suppose. One thing that is impressive about him and his team is how they've been able to sort through the injuries he's dealt with these last two seasons.

Dennis and Mikhail are both very enjoyable skaters, I agree with that!

ETA: As for Patrick's comments. I think he has some valid concerns, but those conversations need to be happening at the ISU level (Or even national federation level). I'm hoping that the new skater reps (John Coughlin more so since he's the rep for singles on the ISU Athlete Commission) can provide a valuable voice regarding this issue.
 
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musicfan80

Medalist
Joined
May 20, 2015
ETA: As for Patrick's comments. I think he has some valid concerns, but those conversations need to be happening at the ISU level (Or even national federation level). I'm hoping that the new skater reps (John Coughlin more so since he's the rep for singles on the ISU Athlete Commission) can provide a valuable voice regarding this issue.

Agreed - I'm also wondering why more coaches haven't spoken out about health concerns. I think that could also be another voice.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Agreed - I'm also wondering why more coaches haven't spoken out about health concerns. I think that could also be another voice.

I think that national skating federations can do more. In the U.S. a lot of coaches are just individuals who know how to skate and have taught themselves how to teach others. Maybe there could be a national program of making coaches mre aware of the latest science about training, equipment, etc.
 
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Sam L

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
What if quads are banned like the backflip? How will that change men's programs. It would mean the top men would have to compete by adding different arm positions, backloading etc... It would mean trying to attain the best GOEs and avoiding falls/deductions at all costs. It would mean concentrating on PCS to try to max it out. It would mean a lot of pretty and interesting triple-triple combinations to get the maximum points. Wouldn't that be interesting?
 

Elaine666

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Firstly, let's give credit to Javier for lighting it up and THAT is the primary reason Hanyu lost those 2 Worlds. Also, in 2016, he nailed his SP, so clearly injury wasn't affecting him too adversely, lol.

Secondly, one could argue he won 2 WC because he was given generous PCS (particularly his 2014 SP)... although, like Javier, he delivered practically clean comeback freeskates to earn the win. (IMO, WC2017 was definitely deserved, but Machida deserved to win 2014 Worlds -- unfortunately for him, he wasn't the Japanese #1 who had just won an OGM).

Thirdly, you're absolutely right. HE never mentions injury when he loses. Although it'd be swell if other folks spared us the whole pre-competition: "If he's healthy, he'll win" + post-competition: "What? He didn't win?! His health must have been compromised" rhetoric. :sarcasm:

Then we could have some debate about wc title of 2012 and 2013 if you wanna go there:sarcasm:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Then we could have some debate about wc title of 2012 and 2013 if you wanna go there:sarcasm:

Well the debate is as follows: 2013 should have gone to Ten. 2012 should have gone to Chan if you understand COP math. 2012 should have gone to Takahashi if you ignore COP math. Debate over! ;)

Also you should be a goalie, given how good you are at deflection. :laugh:
 
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narcissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
He almost matched his personal best SP so unless he ran into a zamboni the day inbetween the SP and the FS, logic would say that he should have also been capable of delivering a FS of similar calibre (or at least better than what he displayed). He had a bad day. And he doesn't use injuries as an excuse for having a bad day (well, he doesn't need to, when others are so eager to blame injuries, or the fed angering him, or whatever helps them process the poor performance in their minds). Not to mention Javier's total score (315 points) would have still been very difficult to beat anyways - Hanyu would have needed a 205 point free skate.

Well, not sure if you noticed, but the free skate has more jumps than the short program.

IMO if you don't follow Hanyu then maybe you should stop speculating about what he could or couldn't have done, because if you did then you would know that he was completely bedridden right after worlds for weeks because of his injury, and while skating the gala he was aware it could be his very last competition. With that I'll bow out of this discussion :giveup:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I do follow what happens with Hanyu and I do know of his injuries (I mean, how could one NOT hear about them!). But I don't think it's fair to other skaters to trivialize their wins as due to someone being injured, and use injury as a scapegoat for poor performances from Hanyu. Especially when there are several instances where Hanyu's competitors don't get a personal best/make mistakes - and nobody automatically attributes it to current/previous injuries in order to justify the bad skate or trivialize those who place higher. They are prone to having bad days, and even Hanyu (who is human, last time I checked) is prone to bad competitions. And if you really know skaters, you'll know that a great number of them still compete not at 100% and are dealing with *some* nagging injury/injuries that could adversely affect their performance.
 
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4everchan

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Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
this thread is funny...

first... let's bash patrick for whatever reason because he speaks up what others don't have the courage to say...

then, let's talk about such and such skaters injuries to explain why they won or didn't win events.....

but wait, these injuries have nothing to do with the topic at stake right??? these injuries would never be related to training quads... never... they just happened by miracle...

plushenko, ten, reynolds, chen, ge, hanyu, and many others weren't possibly injured by quad training... patrick says he will only add things gradually in his programs, when he feels it's safe for his health.... javi has said he is done adding quads...he wants cleaner and safer programs..

so on one side, the older skaters are saying something... perhaps from remembering what happened to their colleagues in the late 2000s... and on the other side, there are fans asking for more quads...

Give them bread and circuses
 
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ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
I think, most importantly, Hanyu seems like way too classy of a guy to say that Javier's WCs only happened because he was injured. Maybe we should all try to be more like Yuzuru in our treatment of others.

WWYD.
 
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