How can USFS better develop the sport? | Golden Skate

How can USFS better develop the sport?

Bluediamonds09

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Sep 8, 2016
For the past few days I've been hearing a LOT of negative comments on the US federation 's way of handling figure skating. Like, oh, they don't know how to make the sport popular again. And, they don't fund the skaters. They don't encourage talent; they place favoritism on skaters without a chance on the big stage; they don't encourage viral videos on YouTube and instead want fans to pay for ice network; the whole system is old and set in old fashioned ways, blah blah blah....

Is all this true?? What do you guys think?

IMO, there are lots of ways to promote skating in the US. For starters, people love drama, and figure skating is full of it. So why not make a mini YouTube series for Champs Camp? Why not try to promote figure skating magazine? Or bring in new coaches from overseas to whip our skaters into shape? Or something other than what they've been doing the last 10 years that obviously ain't working?
 
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karne

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I see you've been reading Dave Lease's word vomit manic meltdown on Twitter.

USFS does fund the skaters. Unlike systems like Russia and China, which have government funding, and Japan, where sponsorship is huge, the USFS doesn't really have the money to 100% fund skaters. They provide money according to funding envelopes, which are linked to skaters' results during the season.

IceNetwork has a lot of problems and I don't know what the USFS plans to do about that. But taking anything Dave Lease says as gospel is...not a great idea.
 

Jennifer Lyon

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Dave is VERY right about the power of YouTube. The Millennial generation doesn't watch much network TV. They especially aren't going to tune into an NBC broadcast of some Grand Prix event that took place two weeks ago. The Icenetwork is fine for reaching existing fans, but YouTube videos can bring in new viewers, especially if the videos are actively promoted in a timely manner.
 

Seren

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One of the biggest criticisms skating deals with is that "it is not a real sport". We all know this is not true but using "drama" as in reality-show drama to increase viewership would never be a good idea. Keep the drama to the ice if we want skating to be taken seriously.

There are things US figure skating needs to do better but many of these harsh criticisms come from people whose ideas are fantasy. The US does not have state sponsored skating and we culturally aren't into skating as much as we used to be- so I would like these people to tell me where the money is going to come from.
 

el henry

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Sounds like, as @Karne said, a reference Dave Lease's twitter eruption: not a lot of comments, but a heckuva lot of tweets (many contradictory) from one person.

It's difficult to comment on all his ideas and all his tweets because so many of the tweets are, well, no other way to put it, bizarre. :scard7:

I agree that USFS should do more with YouTube and videos and new media and viral popularity. AFAIK, Jason's Riverdance has had 16 million views ETA: in four years. A senior skater in a competitive program. I don't know what has been done to capture the lightning in a bottle. But I think we all, as figure skating fans, would love to see more and better promotion.

US skaters don't need to be "whipped into shape". The fact that Dave dwells on this so much, and his god-awful obsession with the Karolyis and gymnastics as the answer to US figure skatings problems is verrry problematic IMHO: dear God, no:eekn:
 
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TontoK

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One of the biggest criticisms skating deals with is that "it is not a real sport". We all know this is not true but using "drama" as in reality-show drama to increase viewership would never be a good idea. Keep the drama to the ice if we want skating to be taken seriously.

Why would people think it's not a "real sport?"

Is it because of all the focus on hair and makeup? And who designed that skater's costume?

Is it because at a so-called World Championship the competitors are coerced into wearing fright wigs and oversized rhinestone glasses while they do middle school cheers?

A couple of weeks ago I posted an article from Barstool Sports, an online forum catering to lounge-chair quarterbacks that regularly features pizza reviews. (Not throwing shade... the whole thing is great... it's free-wheeling and hilarious.)

Anyway, one of the guys wrote an article on figure skating, and it was very positive. He said attending the WC in Boston was better than the Super Bowl. There's an untapped audience for our sport, but we hardcore fans have got to take it more seriously if we expect anyone else to.

As for USFSA, I've said plenty on the quality of judging at USNats and on the selection process for World/Olympic teams. I won't revisit that.

Edit to add: If you're still viewing The Skating Lesson and giving one ounce of credence to anything they say, then you deserve all the butthurt they deliver.
 
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andromache

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Mar 23, 2014
Dave is VERY right about the power of YouTube. The Millennial generation doesn't watch much network TV. They especially aren't going to tune into an NBC broadcast of some Grand Prix event that took place two weeks ago. The Icenetwork is fine for reaching existing fans, but YouTube videos can bring in new viewers, especially if the videos are actively promoted in a timely manner.

Agree.

No matter how much you hate Dave Lease and/or TSL, USFS's dependence on IceNetwork and NBC at the expense of outlets like YouTube does a disservice to the athletes and the sport. They'd make more money off of YouTube, which could then reach the athletes. Like, why was Jason's viral Riverdance taken down??? Even livestreams on YouTube work far better than IN, and can be monetized with ads. Plus, the ability to share anything on YouTube makes it 5000% more marketable. I'm bored at work and watching a GP event on my second computer monitor? Let me share this free link on Facebook for friends who are in the same situation.

I also agree regarding Dave's comments about making coaches work together more cooperatively - have coaches who are great at certain things handle certain things, and while doing that, promote top skaters spending more time training together.
 

el henry

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Why would people think it's not a "real sport?"

Is it because of all the focus on hair and makeup? And who designed that skater's costume?

Is it because at a so-called World Championship the competitors are coerced into wearing fright wigs and oversized rhinestone glasses while they do middle school cheers?

A couple of weeks ago I posted an article from Barstool Sports, an online forum catering to lounge-chair quarterbacks that regularly features pizza reviews. (Not throwing shade... the whole thing is great... it's free-wheeling and hilarious.)

Anyway, one of the guys wrote an article on figure skating, and it was very positive. He said attending the WC in Boston was better than the Super Bowl. There's an untapped audience for our sport, but we hardcore fans have got to take it more seriously if we expect anyone else to.

As for USFSA, I've said plenty on the quality of judging at USNats and on the selection process for World/Olympic teams. I won't revisit that.

Edit to add: If you're still viewing The Skating Lesson and giving one ounce of credence to anything they say, then you deserve all the butthurt they deliver.

Oh, please Tonto my friend, if you don't like WTT, why are you watching it? It certainly is not representative of the sport, but I love it, I love the good spirits, and the maturity it takes to show that kind of cheer and fun. And yes, it does take maturity: Anyone can be a miserable old cuss, I'm proof of that :laugh:

I only visit TSL's feed when the good folks at FSU tell me there's a meltdown, and I can't stay away. That is indeed my fault. But it's not butthurt, it's train wreck fascination. I actually enjoyed the interviews on TSL, I thought they were great. I am sorry that Dave is self-imploding this way.

We will just have to agree to disagree about whether figure skating should improve its appeal to the barstool crowd or the ladies of a certain age crowd. But that's what makes a forum....:biggrin:
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Unless they disable comments I'm not sure YouTube would do any favors for the sport. Based on what I've seen fans post on YouTube I'm scared to think about it.

Feeling: :shock2:
 

TontoK

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Oh, please Tonto my friend, if you don't like WTT, why are you watching it? It certainly is not representative of the sport, but I love it, I love the good spirits, and the maturity it takes to show that kind of cheer and fun. And yes, it does take maturity: Anyone can be a miserable old cuss, I'm proof of that :laugh:

I only visit TSL's feed when the good folks at FSU tell me there's a meltdown, and I can't stay away. That is indeed my fault. But it's not butthurt, it's train wreck fascination. I actually enjoyed the interviews on TSL, I thought they were great. I am sorry that Dave is self-imploding this way.

We will just have to agree to disagree about whether figure skating should improve its appeal to the barstool crowd or the ladies of a certain age crowd. But that's what makes a forum....:biggrin:

El, my dear friend, one of the reasons I respect you is that I can disagree with virtually everything you write... and still really like you. LOL.

I watch the videos of the WTT performances, because I love our sport, and don't want to miss anything. Once the skater takes his/her/their bow, I drag that little bar at the bottom over until I get to the scores. That way I don't have to sit through the nonsense.

Or sport has beauty, athleticism, WOW moments, interesting storylines... there's no reason the Barstool crowd shouldn't like it. But having to sit through several minutes of athletes prancing about while waiting for the scores isn't going to capture them. The old ladies of "a certain age" can't be THAT enthralled by that, can they?

And, speaking one miserable old cuss to another... I hope you enjoy the competition! LOL
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
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Why would people think it's not a "real sport?"

Is it because of all the focus on hair and makeup? And who designed that skater's costume?

Is it because at a so-called World Championship the competitors are coerced into wearing fright wigs and oversized rhinestone glasses while they do middle school cheers?

A couple of weeks ago I posted an article from Barstool Sports, an online forum catering to lounge-chair quarterbacks that regularly features pizza reviews. (Not throwing shade... the whole thing is great... it's free-wheeling and hilarious.)

Anyway, one of the guys wrote an article on figure skating, and it was very positive. He said attending the WC in Boston was better than the Super Bowl. There's an untapped audience for our sport, but we hardcore fans have got to take it more seriously if we expect anyone else to.

As for USFSA, I've said plenty on the quality of judging at USNats and on the selection process for World/Olympic teams. I won't revisit that.

Edit to add: If you're still viewing The Skating Lesson and giving one ounce of credence to anything they say, then you deserve all the butthurt they deliver.


Was that last point directed at me? Because I don't listen to TSL. I'm not sure I deserve anything? (Except maybe a nap).

I am passionate about figure skating, I will defend it as sport and art forever. However, I grew up in the Midwest and heard a lot of people involved in other sports make negative comments about skating not being a real sport- I'm sure a lot of us have heard these comments (and I'm talking about comments I've been hearing for 20 years). I'm not sure why people think it isn't, I think a lot of it has to do with stereotypes.

I think we are saying similar things. What I was saying above was that relying on "drama" would damage the sports credibility.
 
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Seren

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Agree.

No matter how much you hate Dave Lease and/or TSL, USFS's dependence on IceNetwork and NBC at the expense of outlets like YouTube does a disservice to the athletes and the sport. They'd make more money off of YouTube, which could then reach the athletes. Like, why was Jason's viral Riverdance taken down??? Even livestreams on YouTube work far better than IN, and can be monetized with ads. Plus, the ability to share anything on YouTube makes it 5000% more marketable. I'm bored at work and watching a GP event on my second computer monitor? Let me share this free link on Facebook for friends who are in the same situation.

I also agree regarding Dave's comments about making coaches work together more cooperatively - have coaches who are great at certain things handle certain things, and while doing that, promote top skaters spending more time training together.

I agree with you on YouTube. I have no idea why they haven't capitalized on that.
 

TontoK

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Was that last point directed at me? Because I don't listen to TSL. I'm not sure I deserve anything? (Except maybe a nap).

I am passionate about figure skating, I will defend it as sport and art forever. However, I grew up in the Midwest and heard a lot of people involved in other sports make negative comments about skating not being a real sport- I'm sure a lot of us have heard these comments (and I'm talking about comments I've been hearing for 20 years). I'm not sure why people think it isn't, I think a lot of it has to do with stereotypes.

I think we are saying similar things. What I was saying above was that relying on "drama" would damage the sports credibility.

Sorry, no, not directed at you.

Just a general comment about anyone who puts stock into anything spouted by the TSL crew.

I agree that we're generally on the same page... different approaches maybe... but basically in agreement.
 

Jennifer Lyon

On the Ice
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Jul 26, 2003
Unless they disable comments I'm not sure YouTube would do any favors for the sport. Based on what I've seen fans post on YouTube I'm scared to think about it.

Feeling: :shock2:

Yeah, but the ugly comments I've seen in response to skating videos aren't any worse than what I've seen under other kinds of videos. I think the benefits of uploading videos outweigh any potential troll damage.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
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Jan 23, 2009
I agree with you on YouTube. I have no idea why they haven't capitalized on that.

I'm not puzzled by why Usfsa doesn't have an official YouTube channel. Enough suckers are willing to pay Icenetwork $80 a month for videos of figure skating that looks like it was taken by a potato camera and broadcast with a 128k kbps modem.

Fun fact: A few months ago, they sent out an email and gave everyone a discount. Wow, it was nice. They billed for significantly less than normal. Then a week later they said, lol just kidding we'll charge you $80, here's the new bill.

For example, look at this ballet competition, Prix de Lausanne. It's never going to be on network television, and if it were, it would be a "who cares about this" like figure skating. But they livestream, HD, 1080p on YouTube, they post interviews on YouTube, all the dances, vlog posts by the dances.
https://youtu.be/FluVZqytsg0

Heck, even the Olympic committee has its channel when you can officially watch all Olympic figure skating with all the ads.
 

andromache

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Mar 23, 2014
Yeah, but the ugly comments I've seen in response to skating videos aren't any worse than what I've seen under other kinds of videos. I think the benefits of uploading videos outweigh any potential troll damage.

Agree. Figure skating is a SPORT, we are talking about elite athletes. Find youtube videos of any other professional athletes doing their thing, and yes, there will be some hate. But is it anything that actually hurts anyone personally? No, because elite athletes can handle it.
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
I'm not puzzled by why Usfsa doesn't have an official YouTube channel. Enough suckers are willing to pay Icenetwork $80 a month for videos of figure skating that looks like it was taken by a potato camera

IceNetwork does not cost $80 a month.
I think the highest cost with no discounts has been $49.99 per year. Occasionally (not every year) there have been some international events that were not covered and were available for an additional fee. But I don't think you would ever have had to pay anything close to $80 per year to see all of their content.

Aside from broadcast rights for international events, and Nationals, there is labor involved in getting a video feed, especially for events that are not being televised.

The audience is thousands of skaters and skating fans, not millions of TV viewers, so there's no way they would have the resources of a TV network in terms of production values. I.e., if they're providing the camera work, you're going to get one camera angle. If they have an arrangement to share a broadcast feed, then the production values would be higher.

For live events, they just leave the camera running while nothing is happening. The on-demand videos may edit out everything but the actual skating, which requires staff labor.

I do agree that the technical quality of the streaming often leaves much to be desired. On-demand video after the fact is usually better quality but not always perfect.

I don't know much about the technology or about the economics of video streaming. I'm curious:

If you're envisioning using YouTube as a platform instead, how would they deal with the differing technical demands of live streaming vs. on-demand video? How much more labor would be involved, and would it be possible to bring in more income from viewers or for advertisers to cover any additional expenses?

Would the on-demand videos be up to 6 or 7 hours long for short programs with 40+ skaters at large championships (there were 44 ladies at Junior Worlds this year)? Or should someone edit out all the resurfaces and warmups and maybe the waits for the scores, to get it down to 4 or 5 hours? Can YouTube handle video that long? Or should large events be broken up into several separate videos? One for each warmup group? One for each skater (lots of labor dividing and organizing and separately uploading all of those)?

What about videos of events like US regionals and sectionals, lower levels at nationals, synchro championships, adult championships, some of which have never been streamed live but are available on demand a few days later? Should those follow the same model as the elite events? Or should IceNetwork continue to offer those?

What would be the revenue streams to cover the costs of getting video in the first place and then getting it online, for both fan-friendly events and those mainly of interest to the participants and their families and other skaters?

Agree. Figure skating is a SPORT, we are talking about elite athletes. Find youtube videos of any other professional athletes doing their thing, and yes, there will be some hate. But is it anything that actually hurts anyone personally? No, because elite athletes can handle it.

But not all skaters covered by IceNetwork are elite. In fact, the majority are not.

Would Juvenile Girl's Qualifying Round F from a large regionals be publicly available on youtube? Would fans or non-fans be able to comment on specific competitors, none of whom will compare well to elite skaters and some of whom will compare poorly to the good juveniles?

We want those videos to be available to the skaters themselves, and to other skaters and interested parties around the country, at not much cost for an individual event.

And it's nice for them to be available for fans who are curious. Golden Skate usually has one thread for all the US regionals that only runs to a couple of pages and mentions a few skaters by name.

But I don't think we would want videos of individual low-level skaters, especially young ones, freely available on YouTube in ways that skaters/families can't control and that might attract viewers who like to hate-watch and make nasty public comments about average children pursuing their hobby at an average level.

So how should each level of competition be handled to serve its audience, and gain productive new audiences for skating, in ways that would maintain or increase net income to USFS?
 

Bluediamonds09

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Sep 8, 2016
Why is he ranting so much?? It's been days! Did something big just happen in the skating world that I haven't heard about? Is the fact that USA gymnastics is getting lots of attention lately and figure skating isn't making him mad? Is he planning on doing a This and That video on the subject?

To be honest, some of what he tweeted didn't seem so far fetched......there IS a lot wrong with US skating, I just don't know all of it.
 

andromache

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Mar 23, 2014
But I don't think we would want videos of individual low-level skaters, especially young ones, freely available on YouTube in ways that skaters/families can't control and that might attract viewers who like to hate-watch and make nasty public comments about average children pursuing their hobby at an average level.

So how should each level of competition be handled to serve its audience, and gain productive new audiences for skating, in ways that would maintain or increase net income to USFS?[/QUOTE]

This is a good point. The publicization of low-level skaters should be up to the discretion of skaters and their families. It's entirely possible to upload things to YouTube and restrict who can watch/share a video. There's plenty of content that cannot be accessed unless you have a direct link. Families could decide to allow their child to be a part of some publicly available USFS juvenile highlights package, for example, or not to. Heck, it can be up to the discretion of higher level skaters too, because it's pretty obvious that the better skaters who might make a career out of it will want their stuff out there and to be used as marketing opportunities for USFS.

My comment was moreso about the idea that we should protect elite skaters (and this conversation is primarily about the accessibility or lack thereof of senior-level competition videos) from criticism in the media and internet hate, which seems to me to be an outdated notion that might be based in sexism? No one worries about fans being mean on the internet to the athletes in sports that are primarily thought of as male-dominated. It's not nice, but should we limit accessibility to content because of it, as I have seen posited in this thread? I don't think so.
 
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