How can USFS better develop the sport?

andromache said:

This is a good point. The publicization of low-level skaters should be up to the discretion of skaters and their families. It's entirely possible to upload things to YouTube and restrict who can watch/share a video. There's plenty of content that cannot be accessed unless you have a direct link.

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Which is what happens now. Some families buy videos from professional videographers, or take their own from the stands if the competition allows (or if they can avoid getting caught), and upload them to YouTube for the benefit of their friends and family.

If they don't choose or don't know how to make it private, anyone can find those videos by doing a search.

Fans who disdain any skating below the top elite level, or non-fans who only watch skating to make fun of the best, are not likely to look for or come across those videos or to watch and comment if they do.

If there were a USFS YouTube channel with links to playlists and/or competition-long videos of every event, people who go to the channel looking for elite events would have an easier time finding the non-elite ones.

Families could decide to allow their child to be a part of some publicly available USFS juvenile highlights package,

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There would be little purpose in creating a juvenile highlights package. It would take a lot of person-hours to find and edit a video showing only highlights. It might be useful for showing cute potential stars of the future, but I think the audience for such a package would not be significant.

The function that having full videos of all qualifying events is not to showcase young skaters to outsiders, or for each family to show off their skaters to their friends.
The main purpose is so that people within the skating community -- and a few really die-hard fans -- can watch a whole competition and see how it played out. Coaches and skaters may watch their own whole event after the fact to see how they fit into the rest of the group and analyze why they placed where they did. They may watch other events at their own level or the next level up to see what the standards are across the country, what they need to aim for if they want to move up. Skaters at all levels may want to watch their clubmates and other skating friends competing in context, along with all the other competitors in the event. Officials and prospective officials and analytical die-hard fans may want to try practice judging/calling events at different levels as well as getting a sense of the full range of skills at each level.

There is definite value to having whole competitions at the lowest qualifying levels available to interested viewers. Some would pay $20 or $30 or even $50 a year just to be able to watch the non-elite events they want to watch. Not everyone will want to see the same ones, but having them all available means that every subscriber can find the events they do want.

So how could that function be fulfilled in a YouTube context? Or should there be a subscription service (i.e., IceNetwork) for the non-elite events and a public ad-supported service (YouTube) for elite events?

My comment was moreso about the idea that we should protect elite skaters (and this conversation is primarily about the accessibility or lack thereof of senior-level competition videos) from criticism in the media and internet hate, which seems to me to be an outdated notion that might be based in sexism?

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The question is where to draw the line.

Figure skating is still, for most practical purposes, an amateur sport. There are elite skaters who earn more through their skating than they pay for training expenses etc. throughout out the year -- especially from federations who pay most of their skaters' expenses, which does not at all apply to USFS. But those skaters are a small minority of the skaters who might show up at Nationals or a Senior B or JGP event or Four Continents or Junior Worlds.

Most skaters at those events are essentially elite amateurs. And many of them are teenagers.

Most skating fans understand that, and are more critical of the senior medal contenders than of mid-ranked JGP competitors, if they care enough to watch the JGP (which the ISU does stream for free on their YouTube channel) at all.

But the attitude that all skaters on TV, or in this era on a federation-sponsored YouTube channel, are elite professional athletes who are putting themselves out to the public as public figures and getting financially compensated for the process is not accurate.

If the idea is that USFS should use YouTube to promote the sport by making videos of elite skaters available for free to casual fans hoping to convert them to less casual,

1) How many events and how many competitors in large events should they make available? A live broadcast of a large event is going to include some bad performances, not just by elite skaters having a bad day, but also by skaters who are never going to become household names and are never going to recoup any of the tens of thousands per year their families put into the sport.

2) How much will it cost the federation to get the videos filmed, edit, and upload the videos, and what income can they generate to offset those costs? What would making elite events available for free on YouTube do to the television contracts that are still a significant source of income?

3) How should non-elite events continue to be made available to those within the skating community and to die-hard fans who want to watch lower-level competitions?

I.e., should a YouTube channel replace IceNetwork entirely and take over all its functions? Should it replace IceNetwork only for elite senior events -- including more skaters than US broadcasts networks will cover -- and find ways to earn money through YouTube that they may lose from their network contracts?

Or should YouTube just be used as a promotional tool, disseminating individual performances that have the potential to go viral, human interest pieces about star skaters, maybe some whole international competitions that NBC has no interest in covering? And use that free content as a way to attract more dedicated fans who would then be willing to pay a reasonable price for the ability to watch whole elite-level events?
And for serious fans who are interested in watching up-and-comers to be able to watch regionals or sectionals or lower levels at Nationals, without making those events easily accessible for free to non-fans.

gkelly said:

Which is what happens now. Some families buy videos from professional videographers, or take their own from the stands if the competition allows (or if they can avoid getting caught), and upload them to YouTube for the benefit of their friends and family.

If they don't choose or don't know how to make it private, anyone can find those videos by doing a search.

Fans who disdain any skating below the top elite level, or non-fans who only watch skating to make fun of the best, are not likely to look for or come across those videos or to watch and comment if they do.

If there were a USFS YouTube channel with links to playlists and/or competition-long videos of every event, people who go to the channel looking for elite events would have an easier time finding the non-elite ones.



There would be little purpose in creating a juvenile highlights package. It would take a lot of person-hours to find and edit a video showing only highlights. It might be useful for showing cute potential stars of the future, but I think the audience for such a package would not be significant.

The function that having full videos of all qualifying events is not to showcase young skaters to outsiders, or for each family to show off their skaters to their friends.
The main purpose is so that people within the skating community -- and a few really die-hard fans -- can watch a whole competition and see how it played out. Coaches and skaters may watch their own whole event after the fact to see how they fit into the rest of the group and analyze why they placed where they did. They may watch other events at their own level or the next level up to see what the standards are across the country, what they need to aim for if they want to move up. Skaters at all levels may want to watch their clubmates and other skating friends competing in context, along with all the other competitors in the event. Officials and prospective officials and analytical die-hard fans may want to try practice judging/calling events at different levels as well as getting a sense of the full range of skills at each level.

There is definite value to having whole competitions at the lowest qualifying levels available to interested viewers. Some would pay $20 or $30 or even $50 a year just to be able to watch the non-elite events they want to watch. Not everyone will want to see the same ones, but having them all available means that every subscriber can find the events they do want.

So how could that function be fulfilled in a YouTube context? Or should there be a subscription service (i.e., IceNetwork) for the non-elite events and a public ad-supported service (YouTube) for elite events?

The question is where to draw the line.

Figure skating is still, for most practical purposes, an amateur sport. There are elite skaters who earn more through their skating than they pay for training expenses etc. throughout out the year -- especially from federations who pay most of their skaters' expenses, which does not at all apply to USFS. But those skaters are a small minority of the skaters who might show up at Nationals or a Senior B or JGP event or Four Continents or Junior Worlds.

Most skaters at those events are essentially elite amateurs. And many of them are teenagers.

Most skating fans understand that, and are more critical of the senior medal contenders than of mid-ranked JGP competitors, if they care enough to watch the JGP (which the ISU does stream for free on their YouTube channel) at all.

But the attitude that all skaters on TV, or in this era on a federation-sponsored YouTube channel, are elite professional athletes who are putting themselves out to the public as public figures and getting financially compensated for the process is not accurate.

If the idea is that USFS should use YouTube to promote the sport by making videos of elite skaters available for free to casual fans hoping to convert them to less casual,

1) How many events and how many competitors in large events should they make available? A live broadcast of a large event is going to include some bad performances, not just by elite skaters having a bad day, but also by skaters who are never going to become household names and are never going to recoup any of the tens of thousands per year their families put into the sport.

2) How much will it cost the federation to get the videos filmed, edit, and upload the videos, and what income can they generate to offset those costs? What would making elite events available for free on YouTube do to the television contracts that are still a significant source of income?

3) How should non-elite events continue to be made available to those within the skating community and to die-hard fans who want to watch lower-level competitions?

I.e., should a YouTube channel replace IceNetwork entirely and take over all its functions? Should it replace IceNetwork only for elite senior events -- including more skaters than US broadcasts networks will cover -- and find ways to earn money through YouTube that they may lose from their network contracts?

Or should YouTube just be used as a promotional tool, disseminating individual performances that have the potential to go viral, human interest pieces about star skaters, maybe some whole international competitions that NBC has no interest in covering? And use that free content as a way to attract more dedicated fans who would then be willing to pay a reasonable price for the ability to watch whole elite-level events?
And for serious fans who are interested in watching up-and-comers to be able to watch regionals or sectionals or lower levels at Nationals, without making those events easily accessible for free to non-fans.

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Non-elite events can be a separate subscription, I guess? I kind of assume that the low-level competitions are appealing for a minority of even diehard fans (let's assume "diehard fan" means interested in the sport enough to post on GoldenSkate). And if catering to the needs of those fans means that everyone else has to suffer through how abysmal IN is, then I don't think it's worth it, to be honest.

As for the use of the videos for coaches and skaters in those competitions - USFS should be providing it for free to them, anyways. If it's a tool that will be useful in assisting the training and development of young skaters, USFS shouldn't be charging them for it.

I'd argue that all international, senior-level competitions (and probably junior level competitions) should be aired live on YouTube, aside from the ones that NBC wants to air live themselves. (Tape-delayed network competitions are for entirely different people, ones who don't go on YouTube to watch things, and so use of YouTube would not hurt that demographic).

There might be some bad performances on there, but what kind of casuals are going to go out of their way to begin a hate club for Joshi Helgesson? The ISU's free JGP streams and videos haven't seemed to have a negative effect. I saw some nastiness posted here on GS about this performance, but overall the general impression seems to be encouraging and positive. Diehard skating fans will engage how they usually engage with content, and casuals can consume with or without positive or negative comments. (Once you care enough about something to start discussing it on the internet, you might not be a casual any more).

Considering how many fans use alternative means of getting their skating content anyway, USFS can start getting their money by making them watch a few YouTube ads for a stream without Chinese commentary.

And YouTube should obviously be used as a promotional tool.

The perception of skating being an actual sport or not is not the issue with sponsors. Do you know what the one "sport" everyone in the sponsorship world is talking about? Esports or competive video gaming. The semis for the League of Legends world championships completely sold out Madison Square Garden. Yup, 11,000 went to MSG to watch people play video games. And it's generally dominated by Koreans and Eastern Europeans, so having a US personality isn't the issue.

The real problem, I think, is not with Ice Network or USFSA's advertising campaigns. It is with finding and developing talent. The USFSA was slow to adapt to the IJS and has been passed by the Japanese and the Russians in ladies skating. And ladies skating is where it's at for increasing audience in the US. If the US had a female skater who was competitive for an OGM, viewer interest would rise. I think they were hoping for it with Gracie, but as talented as Gracie is, she has not been able to deliver. This Olympic quad is history for the USFSA as far as the ladies are concerned. Even if, by some miracle, and American lady won the OGM next year, she would likely retire and the USFSA would be right back where it started. They need to look ahead to 2022 and start doing some talent searching now at the junior or even juvenile levels. There is no reason why young American skaters cannot be as good as the young Russians or Japanese skaters. And we certainly have a bigger pool to draw from than Japan. The US has done a great job in developing young gymnastic talents. Maybe USFSA should learn and adopt some of the gymnastics federation's strategies.

One thing that USFS did about 2 years ago was introduce bonuses for double axels at juvenile level (where triples are not allowed), for double axels at intermediate, and for triples and 3-3 combinations at novice.

So we're starting to see more skaters at those levels attempting that jump content. That should show up as more skaters with triple-triples at junior level by next year (nationally -- some of them may be too younger for international junior competition).

The bonuses should have a bigger impact on the ladies' than the men's field, since the talented boys were already tending to include that kind of content at those levels.

But how many of these skaters retain the ability to those jumps as they finish growing and maturing physically, how many of them will also have the PCS skills to be competitive at the top levels nationally and internationally, remains to be seen.

jenaj said:

The real problem, I think, is not with Ice Network or USFSA's advertising campaigns. It is with finding and developing talent. The USFSA was slow to adapt to the IJS and has been passed by the Japanese and the Russians in ladies skating. And ladies skating is where it's at for increasing audience in the US. If the US had a female skater who was competitive for an OGM, viewer interest would rise. I think they were hoping for it with Gracie, but as talented as Gracie is, she has not been able to deliver. This Olympic quad is history for the USFSA as far as the ladies are concerned. Even if, by some miracle, and American lady won the OGM next year, she would likely retire and the USFSA would be right back where it started. They need to look ahead to 2022 and start doing some talent searching now at the junior or even juvenile levels. There is no reason why young American skaters cannot be as good as the young Russians or Japanese skaters. And we certainly have a bigger pool to draw from than Japan. The US has done a great job in developing young gymnastic talents. Maybe USFSA should learn and adopt some of the gymnastics federation's strategies.

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This might be what is necessary to make skating "mainstream" for the general public again - but I'm not sure that's the most realistic goal in this day and age, when more and more people are watching things on their computers and not on network television, and people can be way pickier about what they watch.

Being "mainstream" in the public consciousness isn't vital to $$$$ and success, I'd argue, looking at what Abraxis12345 mentioned re: competitive video gaming. Niche markets have the potential to be huge, and they don't require an American star. Naturally, USFS's responsibility is to US skaters, but it's possible that "what's good for the goose is good for gander," and that piggybacking on the popularity of international skaters is good for USFS skaters in the long run. If hyping Japanese and Russian champions gets people to tune in, then it's great.

Copy what Ted Barton does and sell advertising during warm up groups and zamboni time. Get rid of ice network ASAP and make all events free and easy access with HD feeds. Mix in a few fluff pieces and video blog for in between events and they'd have a successful YouTube channel. It's pretty simple really.

Another major IN problem:

No free trial. The vast majority of streaming platforms has a free trial, and I'm not only talking about the major ones. The WWE Network (pro wrestling) offers a 30-day trial. There might be some casuals who would get on board for a free trial to watch a certain skater at a certain event, try out the platform, etc. But you're not going to get anyone who isn't a die-hard fan signing up and spending money for a service they don't even know if they like.

(And it's obvious WHY IN doesn't have a free trial - because it's terrible and no one on the fence would renew after trying out the free trial.)

Out of boredom, I went on MRI (a tool used by many involved in deciding where to spend marketing dollars) and looked at gymnastics and skating in terms of viewership and participation and despite the hype, gymnastics still is no more popular in the US than skating and any boost from the olympics was not sustainable. The gymnasts are winning but it still isn't translating into popularity.

gkelly said:

If you're envisioning using YouTube as a platform instead, how would they deal with the differing technical demands of live streaming vs. on-demand video? How much more labor would be involved, and would it be possible to bring in more income from viewers or for advertisers to cover any additional expenses?

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It really would not be much labor at all. The JGP is broadcast live with each skater's individual skate being uploaded minutes after it happens, usually before the next skater is done. Ted Barton, the man who does commentary that many rave about, is the person cutting and posting them to youtube while he does commentary live. It is that level of quick and easy.

The problem I think FS has in the US is that it often competes against popular sporting events. Our Nationals and Europeans coincide with the run-up to the Super Bowl, the Australian Open in tennis, the US men's golf tournaments, NBA games, etc. Usually the women's FS can be broadcast live, but TV viewership on Saturday nights is usually low, in general. The timing of Worlds is also bad, with college basketball and other major sports like golf having big events. Before the internet, they could tape delay the FS events and viewers might still be in suspense, but now that people can easily find out who won, they might not even watch if their favorite performed poorly.

USFS certainly seems to have no trouble developing ice dance talent. If winning is what makes a sport popular, perhaps Dave and other critics like him should promote ice dance more instead of dismissing it. America has the deepest dance field in the world, that's something to be proud of.

chameleon said:

USFS certainly seems to have no trouble developing ice dance talent. If winning is what makes a sport popular, perhaps Dave and other critics like him should promote ice dance more instead of dismissing it. America has the deepest dance field in the world, that's something to be proud of.

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Keep in mind that US ice dance talent is being developed by non-US coaches (and God willing some of Marina and Igor's students will carry on the legacy and be excellent coaches themselves one day).

andromache said:

Keep in mind that US ice dance talent is being developed by non-US coaches (and God willing some of Marina and Igor's students will carry on the legacy and be excellent coaches themselves one day).

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Yes, Marina, Igor, Krylova, and Novak/Kiliakov(the WISA) are all Russian, but they all live and coach in the US and have for decades and don't seem to have any plans to change that. Its not like we're developing all our talent abroad, or even most of it. Hubbell/Donohue are the only team I can think of that doesn't train in the US, and that's a recent development.

In terms of videos and streaming, USFSA could definitely follow USAG's model on that (which is pretty much identical to how Ted Barton/ISU do the JGP videos.)

For major US Events and some international events that they have rights to, USAG posts each routine from each gymnast as it occurs(commentary free!), labelled with the gymnasts's name and the apparatus name. They livestream on Youtube if they can, including podium practices (what it's called when the gymnasts get to practice on the actual equipment). After the livestream, they'll upload the broadcast as one video. Sometimes they even get permission to post the NBC/NBCSN broadcasts. The media team there has been wayyyyyyy on top of things for the past few years. Scott Bregman, the USAG Director of Content and Communications, spoils the US gymnastics fans. As a former gymnast (competed for Michigan), I think he gets what fans want.

USFSA could do well to put a former skater in charge of figuring this stuff out. Like Ted Barton used to skate, and has done such work getting the JGP videos and content off the ground, just like Scott Bregman for gymnastics. Actually, you know who I'd like to see working on this stuff? The Shib Sibs. They've already shown they can do some quality video content! Even if they started slow, it'd still be better than what we have now. IceNetwork is better than nothing, but that model isn't working as well as it could. Plus, they could do more in-house promotions. Training clips, more Champs Camp videos, etc.

As for other issues:

- Funding: It's already been mentioned that USAG does fund skaters, but is limited in terms of sponsorship and government money. That's probably not going to change much anytime soon.
- Favoritism is always going to be an issue, whether it's real or contrived. The problem is that we don't have access to all the interior workings of the USFS. Something that seems like favoritism may just be that USFS can see potential in a team. It could be that they really are playing politics. I tend to stay out of arguments over this stuff because we really just don't know the behind the scenes details.

The major natural limitation I see for FS development is just ice access/ice time. Skaters need room to practice jumps/spins/footwork/etc. Ice has to be zamboni'd every so often. Off-ice practice is more difficult as skill level rises, since higher rotation jumps and difficult spins aren't really possible. Gymnastics has the advantage that space can easily be used more efficiently, which is just the nature of the sport. If USFS would/could put more effort into promotion of FS, maybe there'd be a way get more sponsorship to develop more rinks (though it's a big maybe).

andromache said:

Keep in mind that US ice dance talent is being developed by non-US coaches (and God willing some of Marina and Igor's students will carry on the legacy and be excellent coaches themselves one day).

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chameleon said:

Yes, Marina, Igor, Krylova, and Novak/Kiliakov(the WISA) are all Russian, but they all live and coach in the US and have for decades and don't seem to have any plans to change that. Its not like we're developing all our talent abroad, or even most of it. Hubbell/Donohue are the only team I can think of that doesn't train in the US, and that's a recent development.

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This is definitely an important detail. Foreign coaches who have been longtime US residents have been having some success. It's just differences in style and getting a system in place.

gkelly said:

One thing that USFS did about 2 years ago was introduce bonuses for double axels at juvenile level (where triples are not allowed), for double axels at intermediate, and for triples and 3-3 combinations at novice.

So we're starting to see more skaters at those levels attempting that jump content. That should show up as more skaters with triple-triples at junior level by next year (nationally -- some of them may be too younger for international junior competition).

The bonuses should have a bigger impact on the ladies' than the men's field, since the talented boys were already tending to include that kind of content at those levels.

But how many of these skaters retain the ability to those jumps as they finish growing and maturing physically, how many of them will also have the PCS skills to be competitive at the top levels nationally and internationally, remains to be seen.

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The bonus points started 2 years ago and to see the full benefit, should look to the first class. Those girl were Juv during 15-16. They were Intermediates for 16-17. So they will be Novices for this upcoming year.

My daughter will be in her first summer competition in the next couple of weeks. They just released the IJS grouping and the numbers seem strange. The Juv numbers -Novice seemed ok. Then there was a HUGE drop off for Juniors so that there are actually more Senior leadies than Juuor ladies. Don't know if those numbers are a fluke or national trend.

My point, the upcoming Junior class looks small and will not have fully benefited from the bonus points. The following class looks strong in numbers and they should have strong jumps since they have the bonus benefit since Juv level -remember this assumes that they only stay 1 year per level.

Chemistry66 said:

This is definitely an important detail. Foreign coaches who have been longtime US residents have been having some success. It's just differences in style and getting a system in place.

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Interestingly, the US's most successful and decorated coaches tend to be from abroad who later relocated to the US. Carlo Fassi, John Nicks, all of ice dance. Frank Carroll is the major exception. There have been coaches with more minor legacies, like Richard Callaghan (Tara Lipinski, Todd Eldredge) the Scotvolds (Nancy Kerrigan, Paul Wylie), and some one-hit wonder coaches like Linda Leaver (Boitano), Robin Wagner (Sarah Hughes), Christy Ness (Yamaguchi). The best pair team in recent memory, Ina/Zimmerman, trained with Moskvina.

The real dynasties seem to come from foreign-born-and-raised coaches.

I wonder how many former US skating stars go on to become coaches, in comparison with Russia and Canada. The number of US skating stars from the 80s and 90s - Wylie, Yamaguchi, Boitano, Lipinski, Kwan, Kerrigan, Scott Hamilton, Ros Sumners, Debi Thomas, probably a lot more - and none of them coach, AFAIK. Todd Eldredge coaches - he's the only one I can think of. John Zimmerman seems to be having some success as a pairs coach - US pairs should be flocking to him.

Canada has Orser. Plushenko is opening a skating academy. And if you go back further - Moskvina and Mishin are both former elite-level skaters. Marina, Igor, Dubreuil/Lauzon - all former elites.

(Of course, there are also super successful coaches who had not-so-successful skating careers themselves).

I'm not really getting at anything in particular - just speculating as to the coaching pipelines in the US versus other countries.

According to Wikipedia, "Wylie currently runs High Gear Travel, a sports-related travel agency,[SUP][3][/SUP] and coaches figure skaters at the Extreme Ice Center in Indian Trail, North Carolina"

That doesn't necessarily mean coaching national or international level skaters.

Off the top of my head:


No doubt there are more examples.

Since this thread has a TSL flavor, may I ask why the recent thread about them was deleted? Not sure if I missed something about that.