How can USFS better develop the sport? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

How can USFS better develop the sport?

musicfan80

Medalist
Joined
May 20, 2015
What I think karne meant (I apologize if I'm getting this wrong), is that yes, the USA Gymnastics women's program is insanely successful. The team golds that were won in 2012 and 2016 weren't even close. I think the margin was 8 points in Rio, which I think is the equivalent to 8 goals in footie. But there was an environment of toxicity that crept up and was tolerated, which could lead to very damaging things to happen, including abuse of athletes.

Another thing to consider when thinking about the USA Gymnastics "Marta Karolyi" ranch camps - gymnastics is a younger girl's sport than figure skating is. I can't see that kind of environment working with too many athletes that are older than 20-21. I think younger girls are more likely to be obedient to that type of environment. Once someone has "come of age", they tend to be a lot more free-willed.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
USFS has started to add camp for non-elite skaters. These are the "pipeline" or development skaters who will become the elite skaters in the next couple of years.

Starting about 5? years ago, USFS hosted a "Program Components Camp" that was open to all Skaters that competed at qualifying Regionals. I have known a couple of skaters that attended this camp (different years) and depending on who I ask about it, I have heard mixed reviews. My understanding is only one of these is held each year and this year, it is being held in Ohio.

Then starting last year, USFS added a jumping camp for Juvenile - Novice skaters. My impression is last year's camp did not sell out; I have not spoken with anyone who attended it last year. This year's camp was limited to 100 skaters and sold out. Those at Regionals who got bonus point for jumps were invited as Tier I skaters. Those that made it to Sectionals and/or Nationals (but without getting bonues jump points) were invited as Tier II skaters. The camp filled up before the Tier II deadline had passed. There is only one such camp this year and it is in Colorado.

The glitch with both of these camps is there is a "nominal" entrance fee which the skater must pay. The skater must also fund the associated transportation (and hotel) costs.
________________________

I think alot of people really enjoy watching ice skating and if they happen to be channel surfing and see it, they will happily watch it. But are they willing to pay for it? No. Not sure how you convert that type of viewer to a die-hard fan.
 
Last edited:

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
What I think karne meant (I apologize if I'm getting this wrong), is that yes, the USA Gymnastics women's program is insanely successful. The team golds that were won in 2012 and 2016 weren't even close. I think the margin was 8 points in Rio, which I think is the equivalent to 8 goals in footie. But there was an environment of toxicity that crept up and was tolerated, which could lead to very damaging things to happen, including abuse of athletes.

Another thing to consider when thinking about the USA Gymnastics "Marta Karolyi" ranch camps - gymnastics is a younger girl's sport than figure skating is. I can't see that kind of environment working with too many athletes that are older than 20-21. I think younger girls are more likely to be obedient to that type of environment. Once someone has "come of age", they tend to be a lot more free-willed.

Aly was 20-21. Simone is 20. It's not a "rah-rah team unity" thing. It's a periodic check on how they are progressing, and how the programs could get better, and the sharing of techniques and styles and movements, etc. These camps are used in other sports too where the competitors are older as well. They will work if they are used to help everyone get better.
 

Jennifer Lyon

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
i'd rather us figure skating not developing a culture of rampant sexual abuse stretching on for a period of twenty or more years which is covered up by the board and athletes who speak out are discredited or dropped, thanks. Maybe that's what you want, but it's not what i want.

This!!!!!
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Hey guys, maybe you can clarify some things for me, as I am not american :

I realize that having Kristi, Nancy, Tonya, Michelle, Tara, Sasha and Sarah between 1992 and 2006 made the US dominant in the Ladies category. But why isn't the US moving on ? It's okay not to have the results from before in one category but the media kept inventing some sort of rivalry between Gold and Wagner, when obviously, the youngster might even sweep the podium next nationals ? And the USFS doesn't seem to care for that. There is no need to put media pressure on these girls, just to end up disappointed. It's okay that you want to have a legacy, but the US has so much more to offer.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but from a non-american point of view : you make us feel like if you don't win, it's worthless. And you'll forget about it. This is really how we might perceive things here.

So luckily, I see Nathan getting more sponsors (Coca-Cola IIRC). But if I had 3 US Ice Dance teams in the top 6-7 teams in the world (honestly they could have been 3-4-5 at worlds if it wasn't for mistakes), I would promote them BIG TIME. Especially if my country is the current Olympic Gold ! You promote them to try to continue the "takeover", the "tradition", like you did with the Ladies ! Shibsibs has 36K+ subscribers on Youtube ! Maddie and Evan are like that rock'n'roll couple that you want to hang out with. Maddie and Zachary are that cool, edgy, on-ice tormented couple (and very likeable). It's like USFS isn't taking ID seriously, why, because they don't jump ? Annoying.

Also, on the TSL twitter account, Dave mentionned something intersting : If Tessa&Scott were americans, the USFS would have promoted the hell out of HER I know that a lot of people disagree with him on a lot of things (including me) but I can't help but think that might be true (scott looks somehow more discreete when it comes to media) but Tessa has star potential. And a question for CANADIANS please : how popular are V/M in Canada please ? (precisely)

Thank you :)

And sorry if these questions have already been answered, I didn't look at the whole thread.
 
Last edited:

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
The implication that anyone here (or anyone not here, like Dave Lease) wants USFS to develop a system in which children can be abused is pretty disgusting, and a poor argument that isn't engaging with the actual points being made.

At minimum, as a first step in the right direction, USFS should start doing live streamed test skates at the start of each season. Encourage skaters to have their programs worked out early, be in shape and ready to go. The knowledge that the performances will be viewed will put on a bit of pressure and raise the bar.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
For me I've always thought one of the USFS' weaknesses was that they seemed to be fixated on this idea that only a top lady can be a star. So they've ignored star-potential men and dancers and other skaters in favour of chasing their "ice princess" star. The problem is that they don't have a lady who can beat the best in the world right now.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Hey guys, maybe you can clarify some things for me, as I am not american :

I realize that having Kristi, Nancy, Tonya, Michelle, Tara, Sasha and Sarah between 1992 and 2006 made the US dominant in the Ladies category. But why isn't the US moving on ? It's okay not to have the results from before in one category but the media kept inventing some sort of rivalry between Gold and Wagner, when obviously, the youngster might even sweep the podium next nationals ? And the USFS doesn't seem to care for that. There is no need to put media pressure on these girls, just to end up disappointed. It's okay that you want to have a legacy, but the US has so much more to offer.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but from a non-american point of view : you make us feel like if you don't win, it's worthless. And you'll forget about it. This is really how we might perceive things here.

So luckily, I see Nathan getting more sponsors (Coca-Cola IIRC). But if I had 3 US Ice Dance teams in the top 6-7 teams in the world (honestly they could have been 3-4-5 at worlds if it wasn't for mistakes), I would promote them BIG TIME. Especially if my country is the current Olympic Gold ! You promote them to try to continue the "takeover", the "tradition", like you did with the Ladies ! Shibsibs has 36K+ subscribers on Youtube ! Maddie and Evan are like that rock'n'roll couple that you want to hang out with. Maddie and Zachary are that cool, edgy, on-ice tormented couple (and very likeable). It's like USFS isn't taking ID seriously, why, because they don't jump ? Annoying.

Also, on the TSL twitter account, Dave mentionned something intersting : If Tessa&Scott were americans, the USFS would have promoted the hell out of HER I know that a lot of people disagree with him on a lot of things (including me) but I can't help but think that might be true (scott looks somehow more discreete when it comes to media) but Tessa has star potential. And a question for CANADIANS please : how popular are V/M in Canada please ? (precisely)

Thank you :)

And sorry if these questions have already been answered, I didn't look at the whole thread.

Well the title of this thread contains "USFS" which stand for United States Figure Skating. For that reason alone, I assume this thread would focus on what the USA organization can do to promote skating in the USA, not what other countries can do to promote skating in other countries. Sorry to sound so snarky.

I think the culture in the USA prefers a lady skater over a male skater or a skating couple. Why? Not exactly sure but it may be more of the media's preference over the public's preference. The media will not be happy until the USA get a #1 lady again.

Let's face it, there are certain sports where one sex dominates media coverage. For example, there are are both professional male and female pro basketball teams in the USA. The male teams dominate in terms of public interest and money. Unfair but that is reality.

My personal view is the USFA is pretty content with things where they are right now. They have real medal contenders in 2 disciplines (men's and dance). Whether or not they have a ladies contender depends on the way the wind is blowing that particular day. Even if they were truly unhappy, USFA really doesn't have the money to change things. The ice is slippery so there are no "safe" bets.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Well the title of this thread contains "USFS" which stand for United States Figure Skating. For that reason alone, I assume this thread would focus on what the USA organization can do to promote skating in the USA, not what other countries can do to promote skating in other countries. Sorry to sound so snarky.

I think the culture in the USA prefers a lady skater over a male skater or a skating couple. Why? Not exactly sure but it may be more of the media's preference over the public's preference. The media will not be happy until the USA get a #1 lady again.

Let's face it, there are certain sports where one sex dominates media coverage. For example, there are are both professional male and female pro basketball teams in the USA. The male teams dominate in terms of public interest and money. Unfair but that is reality.

My personal view is the USFA is pretty content with things where they are right now. They have real medal contenders in 2 disciplines (men's and dance). Whether or not they have a ladies contender depends on the way the wind is blowing that particular day. Even if they were truly unhappy, USFA really doesn't have the money to change things. The ice is slippery so there are no "safe" bets.

You don't sound snarky ^^ It's always good to learn from your neighbour.
But I didn't think about the gender issue... We are a very mixed sport (which is awesome). But historically EVERYWHERE, male teams tend to have more credibility... :rolleye: And sometimes skating is not taking too seriously.
And yet in America your female football team is awesome. WAY MORE than the male one.

But the "ice princess" act needs to be dropped ! I felt since the beginning that Gracie was in those shoes, but keeping a impeccable image is not easy.
Maia and Alex, who always sound neutral/prepared/politically correct when doing an interview (which I think is the way they were raised, extremely polite), are the edgier ones.
Since I'm obssed with Ice Dance in America, how awesome would it be to see some sort of documentary about theUS ID team preparing for the Olympics, having footage of them dancing OFF the ice and stuff like that... show the "cool" side of the Winter Olympics and FS.

Also, between those 18 year-old girls and the young adults, it's sad but let's face it, you have more credibility :/ (I don't like saying that but...)
 
Last edited:

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
The implication that anyone here (or anyone not here, like Dave Lease) wants USFS to develop a system in which children can be abused is pretty disgusting, and a poor argument that isn't engaging with the actual points being made.

At minimum, as a first step in the right direction, USFS should start doing live streamed test skates at the start of each season. Encourage skaters to have their programs worked out early, be in shape and ready to go. The knowledge that the performances will be viewed will put on a bit of pressure and raise the bar.

Did he really implied that ? How ?

Yes the USFS should livestream every competition they can, it's a beginning, I agree.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
The implication that anyone here (or anyone not here, like Dave Lease) wants USFS to develop a system in which children can be abused is pretty disgusting, and a poor argument that isn't engaging with the actual points being made.

The point is that all the people who are holding up the US Gymnastics system as some kind of saving grace that the USFS should copy seem to be completely ignoring or totally oblivious to the serious problems that can come with such a system, such as the rampant sexual abuse that was ignored and covered up by USAG.
 

tennisguy

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
And a question for CANADIANS please : how popular are V/M in Canada please ? (precisely)
I would say that among the current Canadian skaters they are the top draw for fans. The gold medal at the Olympics in Vancouver has given them wider and deeper fan recognition that other skaters though I would say that while the Americans are always looking for the Ice Princess, Canada is always looking for its Ice King and so Patrick Chan also gets his fair share of attention. This can be seen in the scheduling of events like Skate Canada where last year the Men and the Ice Dance were the evening events on Friday and Saturday.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
I would say that among the current Canadian skaters they are the top draw for fans. The gold medal at the Olympics in Vancouver has given them wider and deeper fan recognition that other skaters though I would say that while the Americans are always looking for the Ice Princess, Canada is always looking for its Ice King and so Patrick Chan also gets his fair share of attention. This can be seen in the scheduling of events like Skate Canada where last year the Men and the Ice Dance were the evening events on Friday and Saturday.

Yes for the fans, but I wanted to know if they are known to a lambda Canadian Citizen :)
For example : Brian Joubert in France was known by a lot of people, not necessarily for the results or anything, but people in France knew him.
P/C are starting to get known (Everytime they enter Euros or Worlds, the end up in the news in the main French Channel because they like them there, they put them first several times BEFORE international news) but SOME people just know that there is "this figure skating couple who wins a lot" but I expect that to change after PyeongChang.
 

MarkusNJ

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 13, 2011
Has anyone thought that Dave is trying to be provocative for a reason: the USA is not winning medals
Pairs is a disaster, sorry, no other way to put it
Ladies, one world medal in 10 years (brava Ashley, but come on, 10 years!)
Men, last medal was 2009 at worlds
ice dance, definitely our strong point, but worlds was not a great outing for USA dance

Yes, he's calling the USFSA out on things, some are awkward and tough to agree with, but truth is truth....we aren't winning.
 

tennisguy

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Yes for the fans, but I wanted to know if they are known to a lambda Canadian Citizen :)
For example : Brian Joubert in France was known by a lot of people, not necessarily for the results or anything, but people in France knew him.
P/C are starting to get known (Everytime they enter Euros or Worlds, the end up in the news in the main French Channel because they like them there, they put them first several times BEFORE international news) but SOME people just know that there is "this figure skating couple who wins a lot" but I expect that to change after PyeongChang.
Probably not - they wear skates but the wrong type.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think that promoting the sport to audiences and developing skaters who can win world medals are two separate issues.

In theory, if the skaters win medals, audiences will be more interested.

But for various reasons mostly related to past and present media attitudes, medals are not enough. The US public has not been especially captivated by ice dancing and therefore the US media have not been especially interested in covering it, despite the recent medals.

The federation did their part in getting dance teams to that level (although the credit mainly goes to the coaches and the skaters themselves, more than to the federation officials). If the media aren't interested, or if the public don't tune in even when there's plenty of coverage during the Olympics, that's their problem.

Why have American singles skaters been winning fewer medals than 20, 30, 60 years ago?

Mainly because the rest of the world has gotten stronger. There are more federations who are members at all of the ISU than there used to be, there are more who are able to develop medal-worthy skaters, and there are some that have been able to reach a critical mass of good coaching and deep competitive fields.

I don't know much about other federations, but my impression is that the Russian program is centralized and federation funded; Japan I think is more decentralized/free market, but the geographic distances are much smaller than in the US, which may help talented skaters push themselves at the developmental levels.

The US structure has long been one that requires the same tests from everyone and allows anyone who can pass those tests into the qualifying competitions. So there is a continuum between recreational skaters, competitive skaters who do the best they can with limited resources or wrong body types, and talented driven competitors who will do whatever they can to reach the top.

USFS can change rules and requirements to push the potential competitors to higher levels of achievement. We could talk about some things they have done in the past or are doing now, and about what they haven't done that might be possible and helpful toward that end.

They also need to consider rules and requirements that serve the majority of their members who are not going to become international competitors. Without the broad-based membership, skating would not continue to thrive at the grassroots level and elite skating would have even fewer resources to draw on. So any decisions about changes to the test structure (several have been proposed and will be voted on at Governing Council next month) or the qualifying competition structure, etc., would have to be considered in the context of what's good for elite training and what's good for US figure skating as a whole.

Do we want to look at the realities of elite figure skating training as it now exists in the US and consider what realistic changes might help the talented skaters achieve better results? I think it's best to start with what is and ask questions about what could work better -- not to ignore the existing context and jump to "the" answer drawn from the context of a different sport or different federation's realities, or from fantasy.

(Although it can be fun to fantasize about how the sport could be different if we were to create it from scratch.)
 

lappo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
A question to US people: how does the public funding exactly works? I ask so, because in my country FS is an expensive sport (and there aren't many rinks, the closest to my home is two cities from here) and therefore the partecipation from young age is somehow naturally restricted to well to do people while the rest is encouraged to pursue other, far more accessible sports. So big expenses = less skaters = less potential to get a champion = less potential to build a long standing interest.
Also, is the whole "ice princess" concept still appealing to the millennials?
 

tennisguy

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
I'm not an American but I don't believe the USFSA gets public funding. The US may be the only country in the world that doesn't have a Sports Ministry of some sort that works with the various sports federations to determine funding and have a national strategy for 'amateur' sports.
 
Top