2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

Blades of Passion · Oct 9, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
As I had predicted - and as some people had ignored - earlier in the season, Karen's jumps aren't in great shape, currently, and are prone to UR calls and hooked landings. Continually claiming that her jumps are sufficiently rotated and hoping for tech panels to agree with you isn't going to help her.

She isn't more prone to underrotation than most any other lady out there. Her jumps did not deserve most of those calls at JO and anyone can check the video for themselves and look, rather than blindly trying to make blanket statements and act like the caller was correct, as you always do. Her 3Lutz+3Toe was superb, and her 3Flip, 3Sal, and 3Loop were all fine. She had a jiggle and noticeable turn on the landing of her 3Flip, also a noticeable turn on the 3Loop (and a little bit on the 3Sal), so of course a caller who doesn't know what they are doing just calls it underrotated because they don't understand what they are looking at and how to measure the rotation.

The uneducated caller just sees the blade turning on the ice, or some kind of other visual "flag", and makes a call without paying attention to where the jump started, like on her 3Loop where it would be considered underrotated if she had started the jump (and taken off) going towards the side board of the rink, but in fact she started the jump traveling diagonally across the ice and thus from that direction it can be seen her landing is within 1/4 of a turn.

Talking about her jump technique and factually assessing them does indeed help her and it's exactly what the U.S. Fed needs to be doing on her part. The calls that get made at the Olympics will be because of the understandings put forth prior to the performances, and the reputation and politics. Yes obviously the totally unquestionable calls will always get made (well, most of the time...), but all of the grey areas are where the decisions can vary to a wide extent and will be decided by how much the ISU understands and cares to reward the skater/team who is being judged.

Moxiejan · Oct 9, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
For the last time, no it doesn't. There is nothing in the ISU rulebook that defines how the start of a jump should be determined (only one clause about toe-axel takeoffs being punished) and how to measure jump rotation.

For the last time (hopefully), there indeed is a description; in the 2017-18 tech handbook (adopted 8/15/17), it's in a subject titled Cheated Take-off on Page 19 of the pdf on the isu site:

"A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a
downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump.
The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and
downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."

You might think the description of a cheated takeoff is not sufficient. However, you can't state factually that "there is nothing" in the ISU rulebook about it.
Reading the above, it is clear that the TP is to downgrade jumps that take off a half-turn late (clearly forward for all jumps except axel; that would be considered cheated if taken off clearly backward). Note that the handbook does not include any clause that includes the words "toe axel." Also, according to this rule, jumps can get a downgrade for pre-rotation of a half turn; there is no UR for pre-rotation of less than a half-turn.

Measuring of after-takeoff jump rotation and/or cheated landings, as well as incorrect takeoff edges, are addressed elsewhere in the handbook.

My apologies to the rest of the forum who understandably are weary of this discussion.
I have posted proof of the ISU rule & where to find it in the current tech handbook.
I'm now done with this.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 9, 2017

I think we can all agree that the American women land too close for comfort to that 1/4 short mark. That is the main problem, and one that makes them extremely vulnerable when the technical caller is strict.

mrrice · Oct 9, 2017

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think we can all agree that the American women land too close for comfort to that 1/4 short mark. That is the main problem, and one that makes them extremely vulnerable when the technical caller is strict.

I completely agree with this comment and that's why Gracie's fall has been so hard on me. I didn't always love her programs but, I always loved her. Such a pure, natural jumper and I don't know if we'll ever see her skate like that again... I still hold out hope that she will.

skylark · Oct 9, 2017

R.D. said:
You know...I think you just articulated part of the reason why I've had such a "push-pull" relationship with FS lately. This continuous harping on a slight turn on the ice that's in many cases as devastating to medal chances as an outright FALL (much more disruptive to a program in my personal view) is, frankly, a major turnoff.

This is the kernel of the matter IMO. Since figure skating is a performance sport, it makes no sense for a beautiful jump with a relatively smooth, sustained landing to be penalized as much as a fall, which disrupts every program, although the best skaters can make you forget or disregard it in fairly short order.

it's nice to feel I'm not alone in feeling this way about the system...

Same here.

drivingmissdaisy said:
There will always be some arbitrariness to judging by humans.

That isn't what I was talking about. Even the most casual, every-4-years viewers generally understand that there's subjectivity in a judged sport.

But the glaring contradiction of an "error" that can only be determined by scrutinizing a foot via slow motion video, vs. a fall, which generally makes audiences groan involuntarily, is enormous.

That's one reason why I focus more of my energy on enjoying the programs and the tremendous athletic and artistic feats the skaters achieve, rather than the outcomes. Very often, I agree with what program wins a competition segment, but that isn't necessarily my favorite program or the one I go back and watch again and again. I don't allow arbitrary judging to sour my enjoyment of the sport, but everyone is different.

You and I are alike that way, then. It does sometimes take me some time to bring my feelings into line with my will to enjoy.... it happened Saturday. That isn't new, or unique to the current scoring system. It helps that now I can immediately find videos to go back and watch the skates I loved. Casual fans don't care enough, thus the sport keeps losing viewers.

I really believe the discrepancy can be addressed, in a way that makes it all less complicated, not more. S. Bianchetti said back in 2005 that one huge problem with the new scoring system is that it gives one person, the technical caller, too much power. All humans make occasional mistakes, but when one judge's mistake is only one of 7 or 9 that affects the score, human error or bias is far less damaging to the credibility of the sport.

frida80 · Oct 9, 2017

skylark said:
This is the kernel of the matter IMO. Since figure skating is a performance sport, it makes no sense for a beautiful jump with a relatively smooth, sustained landing to be penalized as much as a fall, which disrupts every program, although the best skaters can make you forget or disregard it in fairly short order.

Same here.

That isn't what I was talking about. Even the most casual, every-4-years viewers generally understand that there's subjectivity in a judged sport.

But the glaring contradiction of an "error" that can only be determined by scrutinizing a foot via slow motion video, vs. a fall, which generally makes audiences groan involuntarily, is enormous.

You and I are alike that way, then. It does sometimes take me some time to bring my feelings into line with my will to enjoy.... it happened Saturday. That isn't new, or unique to the current scoring system. It helps that now I can immediately find videos to go back and watch the skates I loved. Casual fans don't care enough, thus the sport keeps losing viewers.

I really believe the discrepancy can be addressed, in a way that makes it all less complicated, not more. S. Bianchetti said back in 2005 that one huge problem with the new scoring system is that it gives one person, the technical caller, too much power. All humans make occasional mistakes, but when one judge's mistake is only one of 7 or 9 that affects the score, human error or bias is far less damaging to the credibility of the sport.

My suggestion is to replace the single tech controller with three tech controllers instead. If 2 of three say the jump is clean, so be it. And Vice versa. So instead of one person having too much power, the power is now in three hands.

mrrice · Oct 10, 2017

frida80 said:
My suggestion is to replace the single tech controller with three tech controllers instead. If 2 of three say the jump is clean, so be it. And Vice versa. So instead of one person having too much power, the power is now in three hands.

I agree. I think there should be at least 2. I also think they should be seated on opposite sides of the judging booth. In the rare incidents that they disagree, the head judge can review the footage and be the determining factor. With a single tech caller, there is a chance that a home country caller could be more lenient than someone from another country. In dance, it happened all the time. I don't think judges were necessarily cheating however, they all have different training and the difference between a Lutz and a Flutz in real time can be easily missed.

skylark · Oct 10, 2017

frida80 said:
My suggestion is to replace the single tech controller with three tech controllers instead. If 2 of three say the jump is clean, so be it. And Vice versa. So instead of one person having too much power, the power is now in three hands.

mrrice said:
I agree. I think there should be at least 2. I also think they be seated on opposite sides of the judging booth. ....

Yes, but that doesn't touch the root of the absurdity: the glaring contradiction of an "error" that can only be determined by scrutinizing a close-up of a foot via slow motion video, vs. a fall, which generally makes audiences groan involuntarily.

And the fact that one UR can be the difference between medaling or not. People are passionate about URs, but there's just no way that they're as disruptive as falls.

Blades of Passion · Oct 10, 2017

Moxiejan said:
For the last time (hopefully), there indeed is a description:

There is NOTHING in what you just posted that says anything about how to determine the start of a jump and how to measure jump rotation. Furthermore, virtually EVERY Salchow and Loop done by every skater in the entire world has 1/2 turn of pre-rotation, directly on the skating foot. If the rule you quote was actually what you think it is, and was actually being applied by the ISU, then everybody in competition would be getting called on all of their Salchows and Loops. That's obviously not what is happening. You're trying to argue the planet is flat and this falsehood needs to be put to rest. It has gone on way too long.

skatenewbie · Oct 10, 2017

After i seen Bradie Tennell in Lombardia, some of her jumps were actually UR, well others that URed in Lombardia didnt get called too though, like Wakaba Higuchi. so i think her score shouldn't be 132 actually, maybe middle 120. she's much better and promising than she was at JWC 2017 though, let's see how it goes

jFarrisFAN · Oct 10, 2017

For me, the 3Lz3T was borderline on clean/ur so it could go either way. However the 3F, 3Lo and 3Lz were noticeably under rotated to me. I slowed down the video and she rotates more than 1/4 on the ice. Not mad about these calls though because it will force her to work harder on making sure the jumps are clean every time. And it's good that it happened at a fun event and not a super important competition

.

largeman · Oct 10, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
She isn't more prone to underrotation than most any other lady out there. Her jumps did not deserve most of those calls at JO and anyone can check the video for themselves and look, rather than blindly trying to make blanket statements and act like the caller was correct, as you always do. Her 3Lutz+3Toe was superb, and her 3Flip, 3Sal, and 3Loop were all fine. She had a jiggle and noticeable turn on the landing of her 3Flip, also a noticeable turn on the 3Loop (and a little bit on the 3Sal), so of course a caller who doesn't know what they are doing just calls it underrotated because they don't understand what they are looking at and how to measure the rotation.

The uneducated caller just sees the blade turning on the ice, or some kind of other visual "flag", and makes a call without paying attention to where the jump started, like on her 3Loop where it would be considered underrotated if she had started the jump (and taken off) going towards the side board of the rink, but in fact she started the jump traveling diagonally across the ice and thus from that direction it can be seen her landing is within 1/4 of a turn.

Preach, Blades of Passion! Preach!

Despite her jumps being fine however, I am not feeling it from Karen so far this season. Her skating has somehow been lacking energy and spark for me, and I don't think the problem is just the programs. I look forward to seeing improvement and real fire from her as the seasons progresses.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 10, 2017

largeman said:
Preach, Blades of Passion! Preach!

Despite her jumps being fine however, I am not feeling it from Karen so far this season. Her skating has somehow been lacking energy and spark for me, and I don't think the problem is just the programs. I look forward to seeing improvement and real fire from her as the seasons progresses.

Her jumps aren't fine. You only need to look at her last two competitions and the resultant protocols to see that. As much as people like BoP want to willfully ignore protocols (unless they support ones beliefs, like the World 2017 protocols), these are indicative of how competitions are called. They are the scoresheet which show how the scores are being derived and the subsequent results/placements from that.

When something is getting dinged, the skater should see the protocol. If they say their step sequence is a level 4 but keep getting level 3, they shouldn't wait for a tech specialist who agrees with them, they should see where an adjustment needs to be made.

The specialists responsible for results are calling her jumps UR... it's absolutely meaningless to her results if her fans coddle her by stating they think her jumps are fine (and obviously many skaters' fans might ignore technique issues and say all's well rather than admit flaws in their skater).

andromache · Oct 10, 2017

I see BoP's point about how tech specialists should be measuring "true" rotation - looking at both take-off and landing to determine how much rotation is actually being done in the air. But I also get that, if that's NOT what tech specialists are doing because it's not specified in the rules, then the skaters already know that, and they know they need to make those landings look 100% clean and rotated, and who cares about the take-off.

mrrice · Oct 10, 2017

andromache said:
I see BoP's point about how tech specialists should be measuring "true" rotation - looking at both take-off and landing to determine how much rotation is actually being done in the air. But I also get that, if that's NOT what tech specialists are doing because it's not specified in the rules, then the skaters already know that, and they know they need to make those landings look 100% clean and rotated, and who cares about the take-off.

The only skater I can remember seeing in person who flutzed to the point of it being obvious was Sarah Hughes. I don't remember if she had rotation problems but, she had a clear flutz. I think pre-rotations are harder to spot because you can't hear them like can hear an edge change. That's why it's good that they have camera's to review a skaters technique.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 10, 2017

andromache said:
I see BoP's point about how tech specialists should be measuring "true" rotation - looking at both take-off and landing to determine how much rotation is actually being done in the air. But I also get that, if that's NOT what tech specialists are doing because it's not specified in the rules, then the skaters already know that, and they know they need to make those landings look 100% clean and rotated, and who cares about the take-off.

My issue is this. A take-off of 1/2 turn or less is an acceptable takeoff. A landing of 1/4 turn or less is an acceptable landing. Giving credit for extra rotation means you may be accepting either a deficient takeoff or a deficient landing. Jumps are not supposed to be landed with more than a 1/4 turn on the ice, no matter how amazing the takeoff is. It isn't a matter of how much someone rotates in the air; just take-off properly and land properly. This is what I interpret the rules to mean, but anyone else can have their own interpretation. However, to say your interpretation is the only acceptable one (and contrary to a plain reading of the rules) and everyone who disagrees is stupid or naive is wrong.

jFarrisFAN · Oct 10, 2017

drivingmissdaisy said:
My issue is this. A take-off of 1/2 turn or less is an acceptable takeoff. A landing of 1/4 turn or less is an acceptable landing. Giving credit for extra rotation means you may be accepting either a deficient takeoff or a deficient landing. Jumps are not supposed to be landed with more than a 1/4 turn on the ice, no matter how amazing the takeoff is. It isn't a matter of how much someone rotates in the air; just take-off properly and land properly. This is what I interpret the rules to mean, but anyone else can have their own interpretation. However, to say your interpretation is the only acceptable one (and contrary to a plain reading of the rules) and everyone who disagrees is stupid or naive is wrong.

Preach

Bluediamonds09 · Oct 10, 2017

Any word on Mariah Bell and her preparation for next week’s (next week!!!!!!!!) rostelecom cup?

frida80 · Oct 10, 2017

Bluediamonds09 said:
Any word on Mariah Bell and her preparation for next week’s (next week!!!!!!!!) rostelecom cup?

No word. I think she went to Colorado to train for a bit. But, I wonder if her team is considering changing her FS back to last years EoE. Although, that would make three of four Rafs skater doing both previous SP and FS. :sarcasm:

mrrice · Oct 10, 2017

Have you guys watched Dave's report from the Japan Open? He said that Mirai was great and he thinks that she will become the US Champion for the second time. Wouldn't that be something......To win a second Championship on the 10th anniversary of your first win.....

2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Moxiejan

drivingmissdaisy

mrrice

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

frida80

mrrice

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

skatenewbie

jFarrisFAN

largeman

choice beef

CanadianSkaterGuy

andromache

mrrice

drivingmissdaisy

jFarrisFAN

Bluediamonds09

frida80

mrrice

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