2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

mrrice said:

Have you guys watched Dave's report from the Japan Open? He said that Mirai was great and he thinks that she will become the US Champion for the second time. Wouldn't that be something......To win a second Championship on the 10th anniversary of your first win.....

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I'm really hoping she has a fantastic season, and I think winning the US nationals is definitely not out of the realm of possibility. I disagreed with his very negative things to say about Mirai's choreography and "lack" of transitions. I think she has pretty good choreography this season, and a good amount of transitions between/after jumps

frida80 said:

No word. I think she went to Colorado to train for a bit. But, I wonder if her team is considering changing her FS back to last years EoE. Although, that would make three of four Rafs skater doing both previous SP and FS. :sarcasm:

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I haven't seen her new LP but, EOE was a great program when she skated it well. If her new program isn't working than I think it would be a smart decision. What she'll need at Nationals is a clean, well performed LP that will connect with the Judges. East Of Eden brought the house down at Skate America and if she can recreate that performance, she could make the team.

andromache said:

I see BoP's point about how tech specialists should be measuring "true" rotation - looking at both take-off and landing to determine how much rotation is actually being done in the air. But I also get that, if that's NOT what tech specialists are doing because it's not specified in the rules, then the skaters already know that, and they know they need to make those landings look 100% clean and rotated, and who cares about the take-off.

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The thing is (and I believe this is also what BoP is seeing), some of Karen's jumps that were called UR at Japan Open were actually within a quarter turn short. They were called UR likely because the tech caller determined the starting point of the jump incorrectly (by starting point I don't mean when the blade left the ice, just when the jump "started") and likely because of the misleading effect of the hooked landing . I actually have the same understanding as you regarding how UR is called and I actually agree with drivingmissdaisy's interpretation of the rules 100%, and I still think most of Karen's jumps at Japan Open were incorrectly called UR.. :confused2:

I will reluctantly agree with CSG though, that if some of Karen's jumps are so prone to being called UR (albeit incorrectly in my opinion), they are not really "fine" and she would benefit from improving her landings.

drivingmissdaisy said:

My issue is this. A take-off of 1/2 turn or less is an acceptable takeoff. A landing of 1/4 turn or less is an acceptable landing. Giving credit for extra rotation means you may be accepting either a deficient takeoff or a deficient landing. Jumps are not supposed to be landed with more than a 1/4 turn on the ice, no matter how amazing the takeoff is. It isn't a matter of how much someone rotates in the air; just take-off properly and land properly. This is what I interpret the rules to mean, but anyone else can have their own interpretation. However, to say your interpretation is the only acceptable one (and contrary to a plain reading of the rules) and everyone who disagrees is stupid or naive is wrong.

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This. Seems that one of BoP's issue with Karen's UR calls is that she doesn't pre-rotate as much as some of the other skaters. So that somehow absolves her from a UR landing because "overall" she's rotating in the air more. But, as mentioned, that doesn't matter and has no bearing on if the landing is cleanly rotated. The landing of 1/4 turn or less is acceptable. You don't get bonus points either if you have no pre-rotation or absolute full rotation on the landing (e.g. Gold in the past).

Some fans also just see what they want to see (it's unsurprising if a fan views their fave skaters as perfect technicians who can do no wrong). Kanako Murakami (who I was a fan of, mind you) is a past example where certain fans kept complaining over and over again that the judges were giving her unfair UR calls, and every time a protocol came out, it was a broken record that she was getting unfair calls. I get that tech specialists are wrong, but when a skater on a regular basis gets the same technical deductions/issues called out by different panels, whether nationally or internationally, the onus is on the skater to adapt and improve, or do something (which I'm sure Karen is attempting to do).

Look at Mirai. She was always prone to UR calls, but she's as of late become stronger and more fit, and her jumps have more spring and tighter rotation. Her pick isn't pointing down and rotating on the ice as it used to, thanks to said height. Hence, fewer UR calls (at least as of late).

And yes, everyone is free to have their own interpretation of the rules. But it would save them stress each time a protocol comes out if they actually understood what the judges were assessing (even if they don't agree with it). Judges have never looked for pre-rotation (unless it was a super obvious toe axel). They only care about landings, not to mention, they don't have time to check pre-rotation for every skater, along with other replays.

largeman said:

I will reluctantly agree with CSG though.

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I'm framing this post.

mrrice said:

Have you guys watched Dave's report from the Japan Open? He said that Mirai was great and he thinks that she will become the US Champion for the second time. Wouldn't that be something......To win a second Championship on the 10th anniversary of your first win.....

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1 hour and 40 minutes? Cliff notes please.

frida80 said:

1 hour and 40 minutes? Cliff notes please.

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Dave begins to talk about Mirai at 9:01 into the broadcast. He says "She's Kind Of My Pick Going Into Nationals" He also talks with Johnathon about how high Mirai's jumps are this year. I'm very excited to see a clip of her performance.

Here's Mirai's LP from the Open. She misses her 3A and then recovers to have a great performance. If she can land that jump and skate the way she looked here, the skies the limit........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=120G-70DV20

largeman said:

The thing is (and I believe this is also what BoP is seeing), some of Karen's jumps that were called UR at Japan Open were actually within a quarter turn short. They were called UR likely because the tech caller determined the starting point of the jump incorrectly (by starting point I don't mean when the blade left the ice, just when the jump "started") and likely because of the misleading effect of the hooked landing .

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Karen's jumps are close enough that, unfortunately, it sort of depends on the strictness of the caller whether she gets a rotation call.

Here she is taking off (Japan Open 2017): https://imgur.com/a/noWaG
Here is her landing: https://imgur.com/a/SzAp5

Her blade is flat on the ice right at 1/4 short. Giving her the benefit of the doubt would be full credit, but you could also argue she was short because her weight was on the blade prior to 1/4 short. Once you get a reputation for being a chronic under rotator, I think calls like this don't go in your favor. That's why it's frustrating to watch these American ladies; they almost all land their jumps with no margin whatsoever.

Bluediamonds09 said:

Any word on Mariah Bell and her preparation for next week’s (next week!!!!!!!!) rostelecom cup?

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None at all... I am a bit worried about Mariah. She will be competing against the best in the world at RC, she needs to solidify her spot as a world contender next week after a somewhat disaster US Classic. She needs to medal and her lp is not doing her any favors. If Mirai lands the 3a clean(and her other jumps are relatively good) next week I think Mariah should be very worried. If Mirai beats her again I don't see how the USFSA could send Mariah over Mirai to 2018. Not to be harsh. I love Mariah and I would LOVE to see her become an Olympian but something big needs to happen at this gp.

I fear the US isn't going to be able to be competitive in ladies skating without some kind of centralization and changing the competitive format away from the regional-sectional system with many different skill levels not based on age. I used to think there would be a couple skaters that would be able to rise above the system but I'm starting to become more skeptical of that happening very often. And even if it does happen, there will still be a big gap at the JGP and GP level.

The US Fed's model of trying to make skating popular again seems to dependent on hoping and praying on a winning consistent lady. It's not likely to happen. One thing I'd do if I were the US Federation is to try to get the GPF in North America every year and work to make that the biggest figure skating media event of the year. The 2nd best thing to having the best skater in the world is to have the best skaters in the world shown live in a big event.

mrrice said:

Have you guys watched Dave's report from the Japan Open? He said that Mirai was great and he thinks that she will become the US Champion for the second time. Wouldn't that be something......To win a second Championship on the 10th anniversary of your first win.....

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Any video available?

mrrice said:

Dave begins to talk about Mirai at 9:01 into the broadcast. He says "She's Kind Of My Pick Going Into Nationals" He also talks with Johnathon about how high Mirai's jumps are this year. I'm very excited to see a clip of her performance.

Here's Mirai's LP from the Open. She misses her 3A and then recovers to have a great performance. If she can land that jump and skate the way she looked here, the skies the limit........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=120G-70DV20

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Wow! Thank you for posting.

NaVi said:

I fear the US isn't going to be able to be competitive in ladies skating without some kind of centralization and changing the competitive format away from the regional-sectional system with many different skill levels not based on age. I used to think there would be a couple skaters that would be able to rise above the system but I'm starting to become more skeptical of that happening very often. And even if it does happen, there will still be a big gap at the JGP and GP level.

The US Fed's model of trying to make skating popular again seems to dependent on hoping and praying on a winning consistent lady. It's not likely to happen. One thing I'd do if I were the US Federation is to try to get the GPF in North America every year and work to make that the biggest figure skating media event of the year. The 2nd best thing to having the best skater in the world is to have the best skaters in the world shown live in a big event.

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They could try to get it more often. It's only been in the US once, in 2003. But every year would be too much. It's a major event - it's supposed to rotate.

SnowWhite said:

They could try to get it more often. It's only been in the US once, in 2003. But every year would be too much. It's a major event - it's supposed to rotate.

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No, it does not need to rotate. If the GPF were always in North America then Worlds could rotate between Europe and Asia.

The big events rotating every year makes it much less valuable(practically worthless now) for the media outlets. Figure skating is completely unable to offer any continent a live event with the best quality skaters year to year. And because of this figure skating has a hard time developing viewership habits and traditions. None of the top sports that care about viewership numbers are like figure skating in this regard.

NaVi said:

No, it does not need to rotate. If the GPF were always in North America then Worlds could rotate between Europe and Asia.

The big events rotating every year makes it much less valuable(practically worthless now) for the media outlets. Figure skating is completely unable to offer any continent a live event with the best quality skaters year to year. And because of this figure skating has a hard time developing viewership habits and traditions. None of the top sports that care about viewership numbers are like figure skating in this regard.

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It would be much more difficult for Americans and Canadians to medal at Worlds if the skaters never had the home field advantage. Both Gracie and Ashley would have finished lower than they did at Boston Worlds had the event been held anywhere else.

drivingmissdaisy said:

It would be much more difficult for Americans and Canadians to medal at Worlds if the skaters never had the home field advantage. Both Gracie and Ashley would have finished lower than they did at Boston Worlds had the event been held anywhere else.

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Which is a good argument for Worlds to not be in the US or Canada... and I think the GPF being in North America would be a far bigger boost for the popularity of the sport in North America than Wagner's or anyone's future medal.

I do think there's something to be said about making certain the GPF and Worlds being held in different continents each year. As well as avoiding too many judges from on continent.

I also think that FCC should rotate between Asia, NA and hopefully Australia in the near future. Nothing can be done about Europeans, though.

frida80 said:

I do think there's something to be said about making certain the GPF and Worlds being held in different continents each year. As well as avoiding too many judges from on continent.

I also think that FCC should rotate between Asia, NA and hopefully Australia in the near future. Nothing can be done about Europeans, though.

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They usually do this already. What I want developed is year to year viewership traditions... which means at least one of the big events needs to be at the same continent year to year.

I don't know how I can explain myself any easier. There is absolutely no media outlet or market for which figure skating can be a dependable form of live entertainment year to year because the 2 major events(GPF and Worlds) are almost always held on a different continent every year.

NaVi said:

They usually do this already. What I want developed is year to year viewership traditions... which means at least one of the big events needs to be at the same continent year to year.

I don't know how I can explain myself any easier. There is absolutely no media outlet or market for which figure skating can be a dependable form of live entertainment year to year because the 2 major events(GPF and Worlds) are almost always held on a different continent every year.

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No they don't. From 2010 to 2013 Worlds was in Europe. Then two years in Asia before finally returning to NA. Now it will spend two years in a row in Europe before going to Asia and then to NA. It's not a formal cycle by any means. There a clear bias to have Worlds in Europe. For the GPF, it's been in Europe for three consecutive years. In 2018, it will be in NA for the first time in since 2011.

With 4CC, by the time it goes back to NA it will have been in Asia for six consecutive seasons.

JW hasn't been in NA since 2005! Since then it's been in Asia only twice and the rest of the time it's been in Europe.

NA rarely gets major championships. It doesn't help that European judges are more likely Robb's selected in Europe and will prefer European skaters. We haven't even gotten into the number of JGP that are held in Europe in relation to other continents.

So no, the ISU does not sort of rotate. They barely rotate at all. It needs to be put in writing.

BTW, Americans do not watch sports they do not win in. This rotation schedule will be pointless unless a popular American skater is not only a favorite to win but has already won major champsionships in the past. We won't build viewership on just major championship. We need winners first.

frida80 said:

No they don't. From 2010 to 2013 Worlds was in Europe. Then two years in Asia before finally returning to NA. Now it will spend two years in a row in Europe before going to Asia and then to NA. It's not a formal cycle by any means. There a clear bias to have Worlds in Europe. For the GPF, it's been in Europe for three consecutive years. In 2018, it will be in NA for the first time in since 2011.

With 4CC, by the time it goes back to NA it will have been in Asia for six consecutive seasons.

JW hasn't been in NA since 2005! Since then it's been in Asia only twice and the rest of the time it's been in Europe.

NA rarely gets major championships. It doesn't help that European judges are more likely Robb's selected in Europe and will prefer European skaters. We haven't even gotten into the number of JGP that are held in Europe in relation to other continents.

So no, the ISU does not sort of rotate. They barely rotate at all. It needs to be put in writing.

BTW, Americans do not watch sports they do not win in. This rotation schedule will be pointless unless a popular American skater is not only a favorite to win but has already won major champsionships in the past. We won't build viewership on just major championship. We need winners first.

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2013 worlds was London CANADA. Not Europe