2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

skylark · Oct 8, 2017

R.D. said:
Fair point - however, I would argue that on the WORLD level, mistakes she made at 2012, 2013 and 2015 Worlds held her back, perhaps even from a bronze medal finish - particularly in 2015. She *FINALLY* overcame that in 2016,

I'd think that this sort of perseverance would earn ANY skater the utmost respect and admiration. In all walks of life, many people find that accepting mistakes, learning from them, and being able to move forward despite them is deserving of even more admiration than natural talent.

skylark · Oct 8, 2017

Moxiejan said:
The "almost girl" nickname hasn't been appropriate for Ashley since she won her first national title in 2012. Since then, she has won two more national titles (making the podium every year), won medals at nearly all of her GP events (including the finals) and won a Worlds medal (and making Top 5 all but 1 year).

:agree: Claiming otherwise is actually a little absurd.

1. Ashley Wagner, 3-time National Champion :cheer:

2. Made the National Championships podium 6 years in a row, and 9 years altogether
3. Earned 17 Grand Prix Medals, including 3 from Grand Prix Finals.
4. Represented her Country at the World Championships 6 consecutive years. Among the top 5 in the World 4 of those times. In the Top 7 every time.
5. World Silver Medalist :cheer:

arty:

What other U.S. lady has come close to these accomplishments in the post-Kwan/Cohen, post 6.0 era?

p.s. I like the Visual Power of the List.

mrrice · Oct 8, 2017

With Polina being only 19 years old, I think she should take a year off. She clearly wants focus on school and that's great. I know from experience that it is not possible for some people to train fulltime and go to school. I certainly couldn't and I did it backwards and didn't go to college until I was in my 20's. I think Ricky D. and Christina Gao both retired young because they wanted to finish school. The way Polina is skating right now, I'm worried that she'll reinjure herself. Those under rotations are dangerous and she could end up with an ankle injury, or worse.

NAOTMAA · Oct 8, 2017

R.D. said:
MOST of the top US women were/are prone to UR. Gracie Gold was the only one who wasn't, but of course she had issues of her own.

That said, Wagner's URs (and occasionally other mistakes) kept her off of many podiums, hence the nickname "Almost Girl".

I don't think it was URs that gave Ashley her "Almost Girl" nickname." It was as you said the "other mistakes" that did her in

Early on, and for a number of years, Ashley would always flub the SP and put herself in a hole, but she would comeback strong in the LP. Unfortunately she was always in such a deep hole that her strong LP was never enough and she always fell short of the position she needed to be in. That's how she lost her bid to make the 2010 Olympic team and a number of world teams the previous years.

It wasn't until she moved to John Nicks that she conquered her demons and brought herself to the next level (making the world team). Of course these days it is primarily the URs that hold her back (that and not being as strong as the other ladies in other areas as well).

Jammers · Oct 8, 2017

NAOTMAA said:
I don't think it was URs that gave Ashley her "Almost Girl" nickname." It was as you said the "other mistakes" that did her in

Early on, and for a number of years, Ashley would always flub the SP and put herself in a hole, but she would comeback strong in the LP. Unfortunately she was always in such a deep hole that her strong LP was never enough and she always fell short of the position she needed to be in. That's how she lost her bid to make the 2010 Olympic team and a number of world teams the previous years.

It wasn't until she moved to John Nicks that she conquered her demons and brought herself to the next level (making the world team). Of course these days it is primarily the URs that hold her back (that and not being as strong as the other ladies in other areas as well).

I think Gracie is more of an Almost girl then Ashley was when they were calling her that back in 2012. Ashley had only gone to Worlds once before that season and wasn't really looked at as a champion internationally Gracie on the other hand has had a 4th place finish at the Olympics and twice finished 4th at Worlds and had more expectations and higher finishes at big events at the same age Ashley finally won Nationals.

Ic3Rabbit · Oct 8, 2017

mrrice said:
With Polina being only 19 years old, I think she should take a year off. She clearly wants focus on school and that's great. I know from experience that it is not possible for some people to train fulltime and go to school at the same time. I certainly couldn't and I did it backwards and didn't go to college until I was in my 20's. I think Ricky D. and Christina Gao both retired young because they wanted to finish school. The way Polina is skating right now, I'm worried that she'll reinjure herself. Those under rotations are dangerous and she could end up with ankle injury, or worse.

Actually, both Ricky and Christina retired due to injuries.

mrrice · Oct 8, 2017

^^^ Christina Gao, a six-time competitor at the U.S. Championships, has retired from figure skating to concentrate on her studies at Harvard

This is the headline that accompanied Christina's retirement announcement. If you read entire article, she never mentions injuries. She talks about how she was ready to move on with rest of her life.

Ic3Rabbit · Oct 8, 2017

mrrice said:
^^^ Christina Gao, a six-time competitor at the U.S. Championships, has retired from figure skating to concentrate on her studies at Harvard

This is the headline that accompanied Christina's retirement announcement. If you read entire article, she never mentions injuries. She talks about how she was ready to move on with rest of her life.

Yes, but she never got over her injuries (hip being one) from the season or two prior, whether or not she chose to disclose that in the article or not.

NAOTMAA · Oct 8, 2017

Jammers said:
I think Gracie is more of an Almost girl then Ashley was when they were calling her that back in 2012. Ashley had only gone to Worlds once before that season and wasn't really looked at as a champion internationally Gracie on the other hand has had a 4th place finish at the Olympics and twice finished 4th at Worlds and had more expectations and higher finishes at big events at the same age Ashley finally won Nationals.

The funny thing is those were Sasha Cohen's exact placements from the 2001-2003 seasons before she finally made the jump to the world podium in 2004 :laugh:

Even more strange was Sasha in 2004, like Gracie in 2016, was leading after the SP only to in the end not stand on the top step. Their paths start to separate when Sasha, despite not being perfect, was able to hold it together and not meltdown like Gracie did and therefore stay on the podium.

What Gracie needs is what Sasha had. The ability to fight through it and hold on, never giving up on a performance despite the mistakes. If you can't be perfect then at least fight. If she had that ability things would be different but she doesn't and she needs to ask herself why she can't fight. Why does she have to give up totally

klutzy · Oct 8, 2017

Polina's been a full-time student throughout her career. She was never home-schooled and she chose Santa Clara U. because she could continue training. School may be well how she keeps her mental balance and perspective on skating. That said, carrying a full course load when trying to compete after a year off with an injury may have been a mistake.

skatinggold · Oct 8, 2017

klutzy said:
Polina's been a full-time student throughout her career. She was never home-schooled and she chose Santa Clara U. because she could continue training. School may be well how she keeps her mental balance and perspective on skating. That said, carrying a full course load when trying to compete after a year off with an injury may have been a mistake.

Polina is like Rachel Flatt, education is more important than skating. They know once their skating is done, they have a fallback plan. She knows figure skating is not getting her no where and it's all about politics. The year when she should have won but they gave it to Gracie Gold.

mrrice · Oct 8, 2017

skatinggold said:
Polina is like Rachel Flatt, education is more important than skating. They know once their skating is done, they have a fallback plan. She knows figure skating is not getting her no where and it's all about politics. The year when she should have won but they gave it to Gracie Gold.

I agree. Emily Hughes was the same way. She talked about it in a fluff piece. She said that skating is "What I'm Doing Now" but she had every intention of leaving skating behind to pursue her education.

It's a very difficult decision to choose between your career and your education when you're still in your teens. When I left high school, my parents thought I was crazy but they did support my decision. Another difference was that I just hated being in the school I was attending and I think I would have been a drop out if my parents hadn't let me transfer to a new school. We never know what's going in a skaters life and if Polina feels like she can make the team, than I wish her the very best. With Nationals being in her hometown I think she will be motivated to continue to improve.

I hope she can stay healthy because that's the only thing that could keep her from training hard going into Nats.

R.D. · Oct 8, 2017

NAOTMAA said:
Early on, and for a number of years, Ashley would always flub the SP and put herself in a hole, but she would comeback strong in the LP. Unfortunately she was always in such a deep hole that her strong LP was never enough and she always fell short of the position she needed to be in. That's how she lost her bid to make the 2010 Olympic team and a number of world teams the previous years.

It wasn't until she moved to John Nicks that she conquered her demons and brought herself to the next level (making the world team). Of course these days it is primarily the URs that hold her back (that and not being as strong as the other ladies in other areas as well).

This is true - the SP continually did her in. Usually falls or flubs. And even after her National win in 2012, the SP continued to dog her at Worlds...until 2016.

Jammers said:
I think Gracie is more of an Almost girl then Ashley was when they were calling her that back in 2012. Ashley had only gone to Worlds once before that season and wasn't really looked at as a champion internationally Gracie on the other hand has had a 4th place finish at the Olympics and twice finished 4th at Worlds and had more expectations and higher finishes at big events at the same age Ashley finally won Nationals.

Yes, this is more or less what I was getting at. If you look ONLY at recent seasons, Gold fits the profile more than Wagner does/did.

NAOTMAA said:
The funny thing is those were Sasha Cohen's exact placements from the 2001-2003 seasons before she finally made the jump to the world podium in 2004 Even more strange was Sasha in 2004, like Gracie in 2016, was leading after the SP only to in the end not stand on the top step. Their paths start to separate when Sasha, despite not being perfect, was able to hold it together and not meltdown like Gracie did and therefore stay on the podium.

What Gracie needs is what Sasha had. The ability to fight through it and hold on, never giving up on a performance despite the mistakes. If you can't be perfect then at least fight. If she had that ability things would be different but she doesn't and she needs to ask herself why she can't fight. Why does she have to give up totally

It's funny, because back then fans/media were ALWAYS on Cohen's case, like why can't she ever put two clean programs together?? Those of you who were around GS in those days remember the fever pitch around here as well...

Things are always relative, hindsight is always 20/20, etc. I'm not necessarily excluding myself here, I think all of us are/were guilty of this. But looking at it from today's perspective, perhaps there is a somewhat newfound appreciation of how Cohen managed to not fall apart/remain in medal contention after a mistake, something that we more than took for granted back then but now REALLY desire due to no current US ladies really having this ability.

figurefan0726 · Oct 8, 2017

My USA Team for Ladies:
Karen Chen
Mirai Nagasu
Ashley Wagner

Alternates:
Mariah Bell
Polina Edmunds
Gracie Gold
Caroline Zhang

mrrice · Oct 8, 2017

figurefan0726 said:
My USA Team for Ladies:
Karen Chen
Mirai Nagasu
Ashley Wagner

Alternates:
Mariah Bell
Polina Edmunds
Gracie Gold
Caroline Zhang

After seeing Angela Wang at Finlandia, I think you should add her to your list. She finished just off the Podium and defeated some very talented skaters including world bronze medalist Gabby Daleman. Her programs are beautiful and if she can hold it together at nationals, she could make the team.

R.D. · Oct 8, 2017

mrrice said:
After seeing Angela Wang at Finlandia, I think you should add her to your list. She finished just off the Podium and defeated some very talented skaters including world bronze medalist Gabby Daleman. Her programs are beautiful and if she can hold it together at nationals, she could make the team.

Pretty BIG if, no?

stella luna · Oct 8, 2017

skatinggold said:
Polina is like Rachel Flatt, education is more important than skating. They know once their skating is done, they have a fallback plan. She knows figure skating is not getting her no where and it's all about politics. The year when she should have won but they gave it to Gracie Gold.

I wondered about the Gracie thing, too. But wouldn't an optimal Polina have an edge this year, with her past accomplishments and Gracie flailing? Couldn't she become the favorite? Politics is a game to be played.

Skater Boy · Oct 8, 2017

skylark said:
:agree: Claiming otherwise is actually a little absurd.

1. Ashley Wagner, 3-time National Champion
2. Made the National Championships podium 6 years in a row, and 9 years altogether
3. Earned 17 Grand Prix Medals, including 3 from Grand Prix Finals.
4. Represented her Country at the World Championships 6 consecutive years. Among the top 5 in the World 4 of those times. In the Top 7 every time.
5. World Silver Medalist arty:

What other U.S. lady has come close to these accomplishments in the post-Kwan/Cohen, post 6.0 era?

p.s. I like the Visual Power of the List.

And she won an olympic bronze medal too with Abbott and company.

Skater Boy · Oct 8, 2017

Ic3Rabbit said:
Actually, both Ricky and Christina retired due to injuries.

I think injuries and school are making it hard for Polina to come back. But as we know often taking a break it is hard to come back. The world does not wait for you and the tech skills are getting harder and her body isn't making it easier let alone school or injuries. I think she is trying to make the olympics one last time before moving on. Her scores aren't bad at all for UR's and falls. She could graduate from school and take a year to compete or do some shows or even the cruiseship scene - she has lots of opportunities. I just think she needs to focus and be realistic re: injuries and school.

R.D. · Oct 8, 2017

stella luna said:
I wondered about the Gracie thing, too. But wouldn't an optimal Polina have an edge this year, with her past accomplishments and Gracie flailing? Couldn't she become the favorite? Politics is a game to be played.

I still think Gold winning that one over Edmunds was the right call, although it certainly was close in the end. Does suck for Edmunds, since she probably couldn't have been closer to a National title than that, but that FS was one of Gold's best ever skates...and a solid Gold is just on a whole 'nother level compared to Edmunds. Had it been an international competition, I'd fully expect the same result as well.

For now, both skaters are clawing their way back up. Gold had mediocre results last season, Edmunds was out completely. I'd say they would both be on fairly equal ground in that sense.

2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

mrrice

NAOTMAA

Jammers

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

mrrice

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

NAOTMAA

klutzy

skatinggold

mrrice

R.D.

figurefan0726

mrrice

R.D.

stella luna

Skater Boy

Skater Boy

R.D.

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