Short Dance Issue | Golden Skate

Short Dance Issue

QuadThrow

Medalist
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
I really enjoyed being at worlds in Helsinki this year. The atmosphere inspired me so much and had not thought of that Ice Dance would caught my imagination that deep. Ice Dance has always been my least favourit discipline. It is not because I miss the throws or the jumps. I am just not able to see the levels of the elements and I feel a bit helplessness in the audience and in front of the TV. I want to analyze the performance and love to be upset before and after elements. It is really hard if you are not able to the difficulty immediately. I have always watched figure skating because it is still sport after all. Exhibition are usually kind of boring.

In Helsinki Gabi and Guillaume skated so flawless in the FD. I was in tears. Their WR was highly deserved in my opinion and I was kind of sad they did not win. Although I have admired Tessa and Scott over all the years over Davis/Whitie I really think that their FD this season was not worth the points they got. At this saturday evening some other pairs like Capellini/Lanotte, Shibuts and Weaver/Poje created more power and emotions. In the end Tessa and Scott won with their massive lead after SD. And this is what I want to read your opinion about.

The lead was nearly 6 points. I have never seen such a big advanve in Ice Dance after the SD at world´s level. Their Prince SD was definitly the best. But their lead was given by the levels. They received level 4 for everything and so their BV was the 4 points higher than Gabi´s and Guillaume´s and still 1,5 point higher than Hubbel/Donohue´s. If all pairs would have got the same levels their lead would have been around 2 points which much more fits to the skating I watched.

My Question is: Is it really fair to decide the Ice Dance competition by the levels in the SD? I am sure that almost noone is able to see the levels. Maybe just some experts in the audience and the three technical specialists. Do we want make us totally dependent by the three specialsts (maybe it is better to say two technical specialists because it only needs two to define the levels) instead of the nine judges? I think the spirit of Ice Dance is made of something different than the little differences in levels in the SD. It is like to decide a game by criteria the crowd ist not able to watch.

Some people my say that working on the technical stuff is something really difficult and the skaters should be rewarded for the little differences. This is totally understandable. But then we have to trust the specialists in any case and remove ourselves from judging on our own.
 

olayolay

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
:rolleye:

Yeah, let's get rid of all rules in ice dance and just judge by 'feels'. I don't know why some of you are so insistent on making ice dance even more subjective than it is. Is this a freaking sport or not?

Unless you can show me exactly where V/M didn't deserve their levels and P/C didn't get the levels they deserved, then yeah, the 6 point differential was probably warranted. It's in the damn rules?? No one sprung this on them. It's not like they showed up to competition and the ISU completely changed all the turns and edges required for a Level 4.
 
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uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
The crowd is perfectly capable of reading the Ice Dance technical handbook, understanding what the key points are given for, and applying that to what they see on the ice. I found ice dance a struggle to understand when I first started watching, but once I bothered to read the rules, it became perfectly clear.

And any move to get rid on the Short Dance would be a disaster. It measures an entirely different skill to the FD, namely the ability to adapt to different rhythms and to translate ballroom dance properly on to the ice, which is what the whole discipline was founded on. You can't tear that up just because casual viewers don't care to look at what the dancers are being scored on.
 
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bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
It's a sport that combines technique with artistry. You either bring it or you don't. You have to position yourself well by skating an exemplary SD, this calls for great nerves. This separates the also rans from champions.
 

sarama

Medalist
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
An ice dance competition is never won entirely on levels. Hubbell Donohue would have never won the competition even with all level 4s and no twizzle mistake in the FD. And even with level 4 twizzles in the SD P/C wouldn't have won. It's true that the difference between levels sometimes is a just a small detail, but that is why in ice dance GOEs have a greater weight than in freestyle. The way ice dance is scored might not be perfect, but considering the SD a less important program means completely disowning what this discipline is, and getting rid of elements, patterns or levels would make it impossible to judge in a way that makes sense.
 

QuadThrow

Medalist
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
:rolleye:

Yeah, let's get rid of all rules in ice dance and just judge by 'feels'. I don't know why some of you are so insistent on making ice dance even more subjective than it is. Is this a freaking sport or not?

Unless you can show me exactly where V/M didn't deserve their levels and P/C didn't get the levels they deserved, then yeah, the 6 point differential was probably warranted. It's in the damn rules?? No one sprung this on them. It's not like they showed up to competition and the ISU completely changed all the turns and edges required for a Level 4.

Well. I think I do not of to apologize that I am not of your opinion and I do not know anybody who want to rid of the technical rules. But I question the arragment of the rules a bit. If there were a rule which says that the biggest girl win would you still stay 'it is in the damn rules?'

In the other disciplines the differences between the levels are usually half a point or less. Especially in pairs you are clearly able to see the differences between the a level 4 and a level 3 twist. In Ice Dance the point differences between the levels are much bigger although it is way more difficult to see it. I do not complain about Tessa and Scott got level 4 and others not. I complain about the fact that the whole Gold competition was already decided by the levels in the pair steps and No touching steps. Finally the top pairs do not really have to focus on the performance. It is important to get level4 at these steps.
 

Tallorder

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
I see Mrs. P's point. The point value difference for footwork levels stands out as too extreme, given what the skaters often know is an arbitrary call. 1.5 points on technical base value is, especially in this highly competitive environment, a HUGE potential differentiator between each individual level, and in the short dance, with two "footwork" type weightings, as much as a 3.0 or 4.5 point wedge can be driven between skaters. There was a thoughtful analysis of placements/rankings of Worlds short dance based on GOE and PCS vs. base values. Did skaters awarded level 4, or level 2, truly earn those levels? Certainly in the eyes of the technical panel. That's two people, and technically a third who can intervene in the event of a dispute. But it is disproportionately decisive in my view as well. It would be great to see either less of a point differential for something so "arbitrary" (i.e., not clear cut to even people with trained eyes) or alternatively, for there to be additional levels: Level 2.5, level 3, level 3.5, level 4, because in truth, everyone competitive if they execute, can look for a level 3, a level 4 is a rare blessing, and level 2 is bordering on near-fatal curse. Too much of a coin flip on just the call of 2 people.
 

coldblueeyes

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Brazil
In the last years P/C have always struggled with the SD. Always. The only time they came out on top was Worlds last year, and for me it was with the best SD they've ever had until now. It feels like most of the time they rely more on their FD, because they know they can garner more points in it, but why is that? How come they've managed to get a lot of level fours on their FDs, but it seems like they always struggle in the SD? We could start a whole another argument about them not even deserving their titles because they are not strong skaters in both programs - and why the FD awards so much more score compared to the SD.

I think the scale to value the levels is perfectly fine, but perhaps there could be a different way to determine them - mostly to make the casual viewer or people without the knowledge of turns and holds to understand the scores.
 

MelDee

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 19, 2015
In the last years P/C have always struggled with the SD. Always. The only time they came out on top was Worlds last year, and for me it was with the best SD they've ever had until now. It feels like most of the time they rely more on their FD, because they know they can garner more points in it, but why is that? How come they've managed to get a lot of level fours on their FDs, but it seems like they always struggle in the SD? We could start a whole another argument about them not even deserving their titles because they are not strong skaters in both programs - and why the FD awards so much more score compared to the SD.

I think the scale to value the levels is perfectly fine, but perhaps there could be a different way to determine them - mostly to make the casual viewer or people without the knowledge of turns and holds to understand the scores.

They also won the SD at 2015 Europeans.
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
I see Mrs. P's point. The point value difference for footwork levels stands out as too extreme, given what the skaters often know is an arbitrary call. 1.5 points on technical base value is, especially in this highly competitive environment, a HUGE potential differentiator between each individual level, and in the short dance, with two "footwork" type weightings, as much as a 3.0 or 4.5 point wedge can be driven between skaters. There was a thoughtful analysis of placements/rankings of Worlds short dance based on GOE and PCS vs. base values. Did skaters awarded level 4, or level 2, truly earn those levels? Certainly in the eyes of the technical panel. That's two people, and technically a third who can intervene in the event of a dispute. But it is disproportionately decisive in my view as well. It would be great to see either less of a point differential for something so "arbitrary" (i.e., not clear cut to even people with trained eyes) or alternatively, for there to be additional levels: Level 2.5, level 3, level 3.5, level 4, because in truth, everyone competitive if they execute, can look for a level 3, a level 4 is a rare blessing, and level 2 is bordering on near-fatal curse. Too much of a coin flip on just the call of 2 people.

Can you give me an example of a call that you don't think was clear cut? Because in general, I think you can see the errors once you know what you are looking for.

I'm OK with that large point differential - getting a level 4 step sequence is hard, because every step has to be clean. You only have to look at how many teams miss relatively straightforward key points in the SD to see the difficulty involved.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think the scale to value the levels is perfectly fine, but perhaps there could be a different way to determine them - mostly to make the casual viewer or people without the knowledge of turns and holds to understand the scores.


How would you suggest? Keeping mind that the fundamental technical content of ice dance is in fact steps and turns -- in hold and now also side by side.

It's pretty easy for casual viewers to learn to recognize holds, because they're related to the full body which is what casual viewers are looking at anyway rather than blade edges. And a lot of casual ice dance fans are also fans of ballroom dance at least in "Dancing with the Stars" types of events, where many of the holds derive from.

But the edges, steps, and turns are what makes figure skating figure skating, and specifically what makes ice dancing ice dancing as opposed to just dancing.

So I don't think that making the edges, steps, and turns count less toward the total score is the right answer.

And I don't think that "casual" fans who by definition aren't interested in studying the finer technical points of the sport or its scoring.

Could they be scored and the scores reported in a way that would be easier for non-skating fans, especially newer fans, with more than just casual interest to understand?

Could commentators do a better job of educating viewers about what's being scored and how to see the relevant technical details?
 

SnowWhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Country
Canada
Well. I think I do not of to apologize that I am not of your opinion and I do not know anybody who want to rid of the technical rules. But I question the arragment of the rules a bit. If there were a rule which says that the biggest girl win would you still stay 'it is in the damn rules?'

In the other disciplines the differences between the levels are usually half a point or less. Especially in pairs you are clearly able to see the differences between the a level 4 and a level 3 twist. In Ice Dance the point differences between the levels are much bigger although it is way more difficult to see it. I do not complain about Tessa and Scott got level 4 and others not. I complain about the fact that the whole Gold competition was already decided by the levels in the pair steps and No touching steps. Finally the top pairs do not really have to focus on the performance. It is important to get level4 at these steps.

So Tessa and Scott didn't focus on the performance in their SD? Because a whole lot of people would disagree with that.
 

QuadThrow

Medalist
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
So Tessa and Scott didn't focus on the performance in their SD? Because a whole lot of people would disagree with that.

This comment unnecessary. You do not need to be a superbrain to understand my point.

I have already said that V/M's SD was the best.
 

SnowWhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Country
Canada
This comment unnecessary. You do not need to be a superbrain to understand my point.

I have already said that V/M's SD was the best.

You said the top couples don't have to focus on performing. I don't think any of the top couples don't try to perform. H/D had better levels than P/C in the SD, but P/C were ahead because they had better PCS, so performing matters too.
 

coldblueeyes

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Brazil
How would you suggest?

Having the turns last longer, for example, could be a way to make them more easy on the eye. I mean, presenting the edges to the audience, but that could potentially turn ID into figures, which would probably bore people out of their minds. Or perhaps have one step sequence giving emphasis to holds and another to turns - just throwing ideas out there. I don't particularly find the current system unfair or anything, and making things more obvious to the untrained eye is not always the answer.

Also, the way NBC has a scorebox for pairs and singles is a nice way to show the elements, though some people also don't like them.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Having the turns last longer, for example, could be a way to make them more easy on the eye. I mean, presenting the edges to the audience, but that could potentially turn ID into figures, which would probably bore people out of their minds.

The turns themselves can't last longer. The actual turning of the blade from backward to forward or forward to backward takes less than a second. For that not to be the case, the technique of the whole sport would have to change.

What can last longer are the entry edge before the turn and the exit edge afterward. In fact, we see skaters especially ice dancers making a lot of effort to hold and show off those edges before and after rockers, counters, brackets, and choctaws under IJS, because they won't get credit for the different kinds of turns if the tech panel doesn't see clear entry and exit edges.

But technical specialists can see those edges and determine which turn the skaters just executed and whether the edges were clean in real time -- generally splitting the workload so that one member of the tech panel looks at the lady and another member looks at the man.

There's no way that a casual viewer who hasn't yet learned the difference between the different kinds of turns (and doesn't want to if their interest is really casual) and is only one person can see as much as 2-3 former high-level dancers who have also been highly trained as tech specialists can see.

You can learn to see the differences between different kinds of turns if your interest is more than casual, but that would require some extracurricular study watching videos and/or watching isolated exercises live at a rink -- it's not something that you could see in real time in an actual difficult step sequence if you haven't already learned to recognize the turns in isolation. And you're only one person, so no matter how good you get at it, you're not going to be able to see as much as a whole three-person tech panel in real time.

Or perhaps have one step sequence giving emphasis to holds and another to turns - just throwing ideas out there.

That's kind of already the case in the short dance (which is the subject of this thread, right?): one step sequence is performed in hold and the other is a not-touching step sequence.

You should already easily be able to see whether the skaters are touching or not. And you can probably see whether they are just holding hands at arms length, or whether one or both of them have their hands on their partner's shoulders, backs, hips, etc., which brings them closer together. It wouldn't be too hard for you to notice when they're facing the same direction or skating face to face (or back to back), and when they change hand holds. With a little extra effort you could notice when they're facing each other, slightly angled out, but both skating forward (or backward) vs. one skating forward and one backward, or whether they're facing each other dead on eye to eye and hip bone to hip bone, or offset so their heads and hips are more side by side.

You don't need to know the names of those different holds to be able to tell if the skaters have changed holds/relative positions at least three times during the step sequence.

But the holds are the easy part. It wouldn't be meaningful to have an element where they only thing being judged was the holds and the steps/turns/edges were irrelevant.

The steps/turns/edges are the technical skills. And the requirement to do them in close holds, without getting tangled up or tripping each other, and to keep their timing in synch with each other as well as the music, makes the steps more difficult.

I don't particularly find the current system unfair or anything, and making things more obvious to the untrained eye is not always the answer.

Also, the way NBC has a scorebox for pairs and singles is a nice way to show the elements, though some people also don't like them.

Do you mean the score box that shows the current technical score during the program? NBC does use that for dance at least sometimes.
But all that's going to show is the score going up when the score for the whole step sequence is entered. It's not going to break down the separate steps (or holds).

The commentators probably won't say a lot about individual steps during a performance either. It would be good if they would use the review time after the program to point out steps that were especially well done, or that had obvious problems. For less obvious problems that end up costing the team dearly, the commentators probably won't know in real time what the technical panel is going to do. In a close contest featuring at least one home-country or otherwise favorite team, the commentators might go back and analyze where the mistake happened to explain the results. But they're not going to do that for every call that an avid fan is curious about -- the TV broadcasts are geared more for the casual viewers who don't care much about the technical details.

And prime time or even weekend afternoon broadcast time on NBC is expensive and limited. Spending enough time to educate that non-casual viewers will probably meaning showing fewer programs and losing the interest of the larger number of casual ones.

But it would be good if there could be some brief educational spots in advance, pointing out things viewers should keep an eye out for. E.g., I expect some focus on the rhumba choctaws in next year's short dance.

Another year, there might be a different key step in the required pattern dance that's worth calling attention to. Over time, a TV viewer who wants to pay attention to those details could learn to recognize multiple different turns (and holds).

But again, if you really want to know what you're seeing, you'll have to go beyond the TV broadcasts to educate yourself. There have been threads here at Golden Skate explaining details of the dance scoring in the past. Start or request another one if you have specific questions, and I'm sure the dance experts will chime in.


If we're lucky, there will be some of this before-the-fact education in the Olympic broadcasts. I don't expect much in prime time because there are other sports to show instead. But for Olympic junkies who tune in between events as well,
 

QuadThrow

Medalist
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
The turns themselves can't last longer. The actual turning of the blade from backward to forward or forward to backward takes less than a second. For that not to be the case, the technique of the whole sport would have to change.

What can last longer are the entry edge before the turn and the exit edge afterward. In fact, we see skaters especially ice dancers making a lot of effort to hold and show off those edges before and after rockers, counters, brackets, and choctaws under IJS, because they won't get credit for the different kinds of turns if the tech panel doesn't see clear entry and exit edges.

But technical specialists can see those edges and determine which turn the skaters just executed and whether the edges were clean in real time -- generally splitting the workload so that one member of the tech panel looks at the lady and another member looks at the man.

There's no way that a casual viewer who hasn't yet learned the difference between the different kinds of turns (and doesn't want to if their interest is really casual) and is only one person can see as much as 2-3 former high-level dancers who have also been highly trained as tech specialists can see.

You can learn to see the differences between different kinds of turns if your interest is more than casual, but that would require some extracurricular study watching videos and/or watching isolated exercises live at a rink -- it's not something that you could see in real time in an actual difficult step sequence if you haven't already learned to recognize the turns in isolation. And you're only one person, so no matter how good you get at it, you're not going to be able to see as much as a whole three-person tech panel in real time.



That's kind of already the case in the short dance (which is the subject of this thread, right?): one step sequence is performed in hold and the other is a not-touching step sequence.

You should already easily be able to see whether the skaters are touching or not. And you can probably see whether they are just holding hands at arms length, or whether one or both of them have their hands on their partner's shoulders, backs, hips, etc., which brings them closer together. It wouldn't be too hard for you to notice when they're facing the same direction or skating face to face (or back to back), and when they change hand holds. With a little extra effort you could notice when they're facing each other, slightly angled out, but both skating forward (or backward) vs. one skating forward and one backward, or whether they're facing each other dead on eye to eye and hip bone to hip bone, or offset so their heads and hips are more side by side.

You don't need to know the names of those different holds to be able to tell if the skaters have changed holds/relative positions at least three times during the step sequence.

But the holds are the easy part. It wouldn't be meaningful to have an element where they only thing being judged was the holds and the steps/turns/edges were irrelevant.

The steps/turns/edges are the technical skills. And the requirement to do them in close holds, without getting tangled up or tripping each other, and to keep their timing in synch with each other as well as the music, makes the steps more difficult.



Do you mean the score box that shows the current technical score during the program? NBC does use that for dance at least sometimes.
But all that's going to show is the score going up when the score for the whole step sequence is entered. It's not going to break down the separate steps (or holds).

The commentators probably won't say a lot about individual steps during a performance either. It would be good if they would use the review time after the program to point out steps that were especially well done, or that had obvious problems. For less obvious problems that end up costing the team dearly, the commentators probably won't know in real time what the technical panel is going to do. In a close contest featuring at least one home-country or otherwise favorite team, the commentators might go back and analyze where the mistake happened to explain the results. But they're not going to do that for every call that an avid fan is curious about -- the TV broadcasts are geared more for the casual viewers who don't care much about the technical details.

And prime time or even weekend afternoon broadcast time on NBC is expensive and limited. Spending enough time to educate that non-casual viewers will probably meaning showing fewer programs and losing the interest of the larger number of casual ones.

But it would be good if there could be some brief educational spots in advance, pointing out things viewers should keep an eye out for. E.g., I expect some focus on the rhumba choctaws in next year's short dance.

Another year, there might be a different key step in the required pattern dance that's worth calling attention to. Over time, a TV viewer who wants to pay attention to those details could learn to recognize multiple different turns (and holds).

But again, if you really want to know what you're seeing, you'll have to go beyond the TV broadcasts to educate yourself. There have been threads here at Golden Skate explaining details of the dance scoring in the past. Start or request another one if you have specific questions, and I'm sure the dance experts will chime in.


If we're lucky, there will be some of this before-the-fact education in the Olympic broadcasts. I don't expect much in prime time because there are other sports to show instead. But for Olympic junkies who tune in between events as well,

Well thank you for this. I have never skated in my whole life. So it is almost impossible to see the details in the steps. I am not used to the words outside and inside edge because I have never felt these edges on my own. But I have watched FS for more than 10 years now and I see amolst every detail in every other element in the other disciplines. My mother tongue in German and it is almost impossible to read the rules in English. Have you ever tried to read details of sport's rules in a different language? It is a real mission on its own. There is almost no FS broadcasting in Germany.

The statement of some users really concerns me. I understood it like this:" Just have a look at the rules and everyone who has any doubt has to be too silly and has to shup up." If this is the answer we do not have to ask ourselves why all the people left FS in many countries.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Well thank you for this. I have never skated in my whole life. So it is almost impossible to see the details in the steps. I am not used to the words outside and inside edge because I have never felt these edges on my own. But I have watched FS for more than 10 years now and I see amolst every detail in every other element in the other disciplines. My mother tongue in German and it is almost impossible to read the rules in English. Have you ever tried to read details of sport's rules in a different language? It is a real mission on its own. There is almost no FS broadcasting in Germany.

The statement of some users really concerns me. I understood it like this:" Just have a look at the rules and everyone who has any doubt has to be too silly and has to shup up." If this is the answer we do not have to ask ourselves why all the people left FS in many countries.

This is sooooo true :( . I think I do not have so much problem reading and understanding this forum, but when I read the rules of skating and especially ice dance, it is another level :eek:::laugh:.
 
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Krunchii

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Well thank you for this. I have never skated in my whole life. So it is almost impossible to see the details in the steps. I am not used to the words outside and inside edge because I have never felt these edges on my own. But I have watched FS for more than 10 years now and I see amolst every detail in every other element in the other disciplines. My mother tongue in German and it is almost impossible to read the rules in English. Have you ever tried to read details of sport's rules in a different language? It is a real mission on its own. There is almost no FS broadcasting in Germany.

The statement of some users really concerns me. I understood it like this:" Just have a look at the rules and everyone who has any doubt has to be too silly and has to shup up." If this is the answer we do not have to ask ourselves why all the people left FS in many countries.

But an edge is an edge? They're literally on a lean on their blade, I'm sure you've never done a twizzle in your life but you can recognize when ice dancers are doing twizzles right? I've never done anything harder that a 3 turn or crossovers but I eventually learned to recognize most steps by myself. I highly recommend Kseniya and Oleg (ice dancers) on Youtube, they're a fabulous resource and they explain things very nicely and concisely without making anything sound complicated or too long. They have individual videos for each turn and different edges.

But I don't understand what's wrong with looking at the rules, every sport has its own rules, in basketball you have moves like dribbling, rebound, hook shot, slam dunk while in soccer/football you have nutmeg, bicycle kick, seal dribble and so on. Figure skating isn't as easy to understand as basketball or soccer (put the ball in) but it has its own moves and how well you execute those moves have a value on them depending on how well you execute them (eg are the edges clean and precise?) and whether you meet the minimum requirements (levels).

I don't think gkelly meant what you said at all but if you don't know the rules, don't you think it's a little ridiculous to be demanding things of them? I think gkelly is asking people to do a little research, you gotta know the rules to break them. For example, an ice dance step sequence is required to have minimum 9 difficult turns (ISU has a defined list on their site of what they deem a "difficult turn" so I'm not going to list them for now) and 3 different dance holds (there's more requirements than this but I'm being basic here) for a level 4 step sequence. Since I know the rules like this, I think we should lower the amount of turns, people don't understand turns as much, we should make it 7 difficult turns for level 4. Also I think ice dance should be ice dance, we should take more inspiration from ballroom so let's make it 4 holds instead. See what I'm doing here by know the rules to break them? I actually don't believe in what I just said that but that's just an example. I'm sorry you don't have more resources in your native tongue to help you learn the rules but I find that many posters such as gkelly herself are extremely helpful when people ask questions so please don't hesitate to do so.
 
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