Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

I think this is an interesting topic that deserves its own thread and shouldn't cluster up the one about the programs of next season.

More and more skaters announce the programs for the Olympic season and we have quite a few who reuse old themes and programs. What do you think about these decisions? Clever or lazy?

Me personally, I'm mostly disappointed in the decision of a skater to repeat a program for a second season. Shoma Uno repeats his Turandot LP for the Olympics and I think he's really grown since his debut season. Returning to that program made me feel sad, because I wanted to see something new, perhaps a different style. I also think that he hasn't been around long enough to start repeating already.

Others who repeat this season are Yuzuru Hanyu, Javier Fernandez (although this is more of a 'style' repeat, not the exact program) and Carolina Kostner.

Kinda lazy, but I'm okay with it. Skaters have been doing this for decades. As long as it's a new, fresh take on it with a new costume, then it's fine. Skaters work really hard, and programs are expensive. Fans who think they're owed two new masterpieces every year need to calm down.

andromache said:

Kinda lazy, but I'm okay with it. Skaters have been doing this for decades. As long as it's a new, fresh take on it with a new costume, then it's fine. Skaters work really hard, and programs are expensive. Fans who think they're owed two new masterpieces every year need to calm down.

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Do you believe this is a money issue? I can believe that for the lower tier skaters, but at the top? I think for choreographers having a top skater perhaps winning the Olympics with 'their' program is the best advertisement, so they might make a good deal?

I don't mind seeing programs repeated, sometimes a program never quite reached its full potential and skaters want to bring something more out of it

I think I recall Ashley Wagner saying that she sometimes repeats programs because she's had so many concussions that she has memory issues and its hard to learn a new program. But then many times she changes the choreography when she brings it back...

MaiKatze said:

Do you believe this is a money issue? I can believe that for the lower tier skaters, but at the top? I think for choreographers having a top skater perhaps winning the Olympics with 'their' program is the best advertisement, so they might make a good deal?

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I don't choreographers need advertisement at the Olympics. No one in the Olympic audience needs to hire a top-tier choreographer. People in the skating community who do hire top-tier choreographers are already well-aware of that choreographers work. I certainly hope the top-tier choreographers are charging their skaters every little bit that a brilliant program is worth. A brilliant program can make the difference between 1st and 2nd, and an OGM is priceless.

Anyway, is it a money issue? For skaters like Yuzuru Hanyu, obviously not. Especially if they are re-working an old program, they are still paying the choreographer (though probably not as much as they would for a new program). But there are probably lots of "top" skaters for whom money is an issue.

I think it always seems like a big deal or a cop out when a skater announces it, but when you look back it really isn't. I don't think the people who watched the Sochi Olympics thought "Damn, that Kostner girl is reusing a program? How lazy". Bolero was (and imo, still is) Caro's best program and uniquely hers. So this time, I'm glad that the people who only watch the Olympics will get to see Hanyu's Chopin, even though we may be getting tired of it. It's not even as if reused programs are always boring or stagnant either; Malagueña didn't really grow on me until this last season, for example.

I do think, though, that some disciplines and skaters are more amenable to reusing programs than others. At least for me, singles programs can keep being fresh and exciting because there is often a lot of variance between competitions, and skaters can show different sides of the program at different times. So I wouldn't want someone like Evgenia to repeat a program, because I don't know what more she could do after so many (mostly) flawless iterations. Similarly in, say, Ice Dance, I would probably start to get bored with a reused program very quickly, since the changes between competitions are more subtle. On the other hand, with some skaters I sometimes even wish that they would keep a program, because I love it and I don't think they've shown its full range yet. This season I feel this way about Patrick's FS...

I'd prefer to see new programs every season but I understand sometimes skaters have to re-use for different reasons. What I don't understand is how they can stand the same music day in day out for another season (it must be hard enough for one season)? Even the most beloved music piece can be annoying after a while, so to be honest I just can't get how anyone could make such decision willingly

I'm anti-recycling with two exceptions: the skater simply cannot afford new choreo, or they only got to skate a program a few times due to a season being cut short for whatever reason. And I really, really dislike it when top skaters have a habit of recycling. It gives the impression that the skater is very limited artistically and a bit of a one-trick pony.

silverfoxes said:

I'm anti-recycling with two exceptions: the skater simply cannot afford new choreo, or they only got to skate a program a few times due to a season being cut short for whatever reason. And I really, really dislike it when top skaters have a habit of recycling. It gives the impression that the skater is very limited artistically and a bit of a one-trick pony.

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I'm not sure if I can agree with this because even changing to a different program every year you could still be called 'very limited artistically and a bit of a one-trick pony' because of the types of programs chosen, whereas even if you repeat some programs, you can still demonstrate your range in your other program.

xeyra said:

I'm not sure if I can agree with this because even changing to a different program every year you could still be called 'very limited artistically and a bit of a one-trick pony' because of the types of programs chosen, whereas even if you repeat some programs, you can still demonstrate your range in your other program.

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That's true as well. I had a couple skaters in mind when I wrote that, but I know Evgenia got bashed more for not changing up her style last season than certain other skaters get for repeat offense recycling. I would like to see her branch out as well, but she's only been in seniors for 2 seasons, while the worst recycling offenders (in my mind) are in their mid-20s and have a habit of doing this for years.

I see no problem with recycling for Olympic season. It's the time the whole world will turn the tivi on. They will never care if the skater called Kostner has skated to Borelo in 3 or 6 seasons. They will only see a beautiful lady with great flow on the ice and great execution.

There is nothing wrong that skaters themselves want the world to remember them with their best programs. It is not lazy. As I am sure they will be careful with the Olympic programs. It is more like they spend more time to perfect their presentation.

As figure skating fans, we should be happy that skaters are doing that. It's better presentation for the sport itself when all skaters show up with their best presentation.

Does it seem to anyone else like more of the top skaters have announced a repeat program already for the Olympics than happened in the past?

If it's happening more this year, could it be because the technical requirements are encouraging it? Go to familiar music and some of the same movements and choreography so the skater can concentrate on landing the jumps pristinely, and compete? Medvedeva did pretty much the same program (to different music) 2 years in a row, and it worked: she skyrocketed her already amazing consistency and added a little more technical difficulty (Rippon jump).

I have to admit that whether or not I'm happy with the repeat programs is mostly linked to the music. Shoma and Turandot, yes, because I love Turandot and it suited Shoma so well. Yuzuru yes, because I love Chopin's Nocturne ... but I'm a little less happy, since this is the 3d time. Ashley, yes, because Hip Hip Chin Chin suits her to a T and brings out her ability to connect with audiences. Javier, no, because I've never liked any program to Chaplin, and because I wanted to see another suave Javi program like Guys and Dolls. Carolina made such a wise choice with Bolero, but sorry, I don't yet know what her music is this year.

I'll probably be thrilled with all these choices if the skaters emotionally connect and perform really well, so much so that their pristine, off-the-chart technique and jumps seem incidental... even while being thrilling!

Ender said:

I see no problem with recycling for Olympic season. It's the time the whole world will turn the tivi on. They will never care if the skater called Kostner has skated to Borelo in 3 or 6 seasons. They will only see a beautiful lady with great flow on the ice and great execution.

There is nothing wrong that skaters themselves want the world to remember them with their best programs. It is not lazy. As I am sure they will be careful with the Olympic programs. It is more like they spend more time to perfect their presentation.

As figure skating fans, we should be happy that skaters are doing that. It's better presentation for the aport itself when all skaters show up with their best presentation.

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You make a good point about Olympic season. There's a lot of reasons skaters seem to have for repeating a program, but there is an added motivation related to the audiences both at home or at the Olympic arena, which often is not exactly made of regular FS fans. Those audiences likely won't have any idea or will care that skater A or skater B skated this same program last year or two years ago. Of course, the non casual FS fan, the judges and commentators might eventually frown at too much repeating, but I'm also sure that they want the audience to enjoy the sport so they at least tune in every 4 years, and hence if you have a program that has had a good reception in the past, might as well use it again because you know people will enjoy it.

Not that this is the main motivator for skaters but it's an interesting perspective.

:agree: for thread!

I really don't think it's all about of laziness when it comes to reusing programs. No one would go for it just because lazy to do new choreography. Especially in Olymic season...especially top men as Yuzuru, Shoma etc. There should be various reasons for that: felling comfortable with particular program or even music, upgrading tec side, maybe financial issues...don't know. In Yuzuru and Javier's case it seems like Orsers strategy, that's why I'm not surprised at all. But if it works why not? Skaters don't have to jeopardize possible achievements just because spectators want to watch something more. And eventually it is only athletes themselves who will be awarded for their decisions in one or another way.

But of course the audience/fans have their right to feel disappointed though

As for me: I would prefer to watch some old programs (as long as it's not R&J, SwanLake or TangoDeRoxanne) more than new one with some warhorse music pieces. At least repeating programs do have some logical sense to me.

I don't have a problem with it, especially for the Olympics. Why not show off your best work/favorite program for the every-four-years-audience? There are some programs that I wish a skater had kept, like Yuna's Homage to Korea. I also wish Takahashi had gone back to his Blues for Klook for Sochi. The whole world needed to see that.

Roast Toast said:

So this time, I'm glad that the people who only watch the Olympics will get to see Hanyu's Chopin, even though we may be getting tired of it. It's not even as if reused programs are always boring or stagnant either

On the other hand, with some skaters I sometimes even wish that they would keep a program, because I love it and I don't think they've shown its full range yet. This season I feel this way about Patrick's FS...

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Absolutely! Even though it would be amazing to watch something new from Hanyu and J.Battle or watching clean Prince SP next season, I was defending this point since beginning that Chopin Ballade should be Olymic program and I'm glad it will,

I'm felling the same thing about Javier's Elvis LP and Patrick's SP. "Black Bird" is a stunning program, would like to watch it again.


And of course Sui/Han's "BluesForKlook" SP, an absolutely amazing routine that has been skated just twice last season. There should be really good reasons (or programs should say) to ruling this Olymic worthy program out. Let's see...

silverfoxes said:

That's true as well. I had a couple skaters in mind when I wrote that, but I know Evgenia got bashed more for not changing up her style last season than certain other skaters get for repeat offense recycling. I would like to see her branch out as well, but she's only been in seniors for 2 seasons, while the worst recycling offenders (in my mind) are in their mid-20s and have a habit of doing this for years.

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This seems like cherry-picking to say it's okay when certain skaters whom you happen to like do it but not okay when certain skaters you don't like do it.

Older skaters (especially ladies) have to work a lot harder technically, and that may limit the amount of time they can spend on a new program. Older skaters also face more problems with injuries that limit that can limit their training time, or, like Ashley Wagner, have concussions that make learning a new program much more difficult. Even though Ashley frequently does incorporate new choreo in her recycled programs, it's not only choreo, but also learning every little nuance of a musical piece.

There are plenty of halfway-decent excuses for recycling programs. Being rude about certain skaters doing it and not rude about others doesn't seem right.

Anyway, I can't remember any specific time when a skater recycling a program actually ended up going badly or eliciting negative responses from fans. When top skaters re-use programs, they always manage to surprise us by making them even better.

I'm stoked for Javi's Chaplin. It's been years since the original, and I think he'll bring some depth and nuance to it that wasn't there before.

Well, Maria Butyrskaya did it in reverse. She used Otonal for 2 seasons. First in 98 for the Olympics/Worlds/Europeans and then again in 1999 when she won her world title.

Johnny Weir, coincidentally, went back to his Otonal program in 2006. I don't have a problem if the skater doesn't have a problem. I'd worry about the program being stale, or not living up to its original thrill factor should it not be skated well, which is exactly what happened to Johnny in 06.

Fans need to remember that figure skating is a sport first and foremost. yes, music, costumes and choreography makes it entertaining but won't win an olympic gold alone. Teams sit down together and look at what vehicles could work out to get to the podium.

Then it becomes a question of personal taste. There are some programs I have seen enough, some programs I could watch forever... so that's why I leave my judgment private as it is subjective. But in the end, there's nothing wrong with a skater using the same program... it's like divers doing the same 5-6 dives in the same order for their entire career... or gymnasts doing the same tumbling passes year after year.

My opinion about Yuzu here is simple. He has been struggling with his Prince program... his Hope and Legacy is quite subdued and has also given him difficulty. He still did very well all season ranking wise and won worlds, but that won't suffice for him. He has already won everything he wanted to win.... he wants to win while skating clean.

So, if Prince isn't a great vehicle, if he is flirting with new jumps... what does he have left??? He probably is thinking he will need to recycle something.... the only program he felt great with must have been the Chopin then....

Is it unfortunate for fans? For those who want to be entertained? Yes... maybe....but for those who want to see a well skated program, I think it's great.

My issue is that I don't like his music cuts for the Chopin so for me, it has nothing to do with the repetition but just the program itself...

I think the difference for Yuzu here is that since Sochi we have seen very few new programs from him and the Chopin a 3rd time is a bit much : but again, please remind yourself that an athlete cannot do it all... if he wants to push the sport, include difficult jumps etc, that requires time and stamina as well.... perhaps it is too much and unsafe for him to try to do it all.... and perhaps fans need to accept that they cannot get what they want all the time....