Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

Blades of Passion said:

It's like throwing some sprinkles on a pile of mud.

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I need to find a way to use this analogy in real life!

chillgil said:

this is impossible for anyone

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Not impossible. How else are you suppose to justify risk and rewards under PCS? To distinct difficulty and quality like you would under TES (base value, GOE). A young ambitious/unknown prodigy like Hanyu can come up with an artistically/technically difficult (beyond TES elements), well constructed, well delivered original choreography that he is able to present in very polished format well beyond his years, should be at least be closer to the composition, PE, Interpretation vs 3 year Phantom of the Opera from Patrick Chan even with best SS in the field. The current judging trend doesn't allow this.

How do you think art appraisal works, antique dealer works? They don't need to be familiar with every single piece of art like the back of their hand, but they need to know enough the wide range of standard at the top for comparison, being familiar enough with all factors that can weigh into justifying these values, to base their decisions within objective criteria/framework to make accurate assessments.

5 black handbags of similar dimensions, what makes one better than another? How would you price them?

gkelly said:

This would not be a simple tweak to the existing system, but a completely different way of using numbers. It would be at least as significant a change in the scoring system between today's IJS and tomorrow's OS system as there was between 6.0 and IJS.

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Indeed, it would require an overhaul of the existing system. It is about time too since PCS judging rarely makes sense these days, it virtually serves no purpose other than ensuring the top stays at the top no matter what the bottom do - or at least it felt like it most of the time.

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Do you need to research all 30-40 skaters on the roster, or only those you think might be in contention for medals or top-10 placements? How do you determine which skaters to spend the effort on and which not to bother with?

So if a judge comes to the championships and is confronted by a skater who was not in the world top 20 prior to the event, it's OK that to know next to nothing about them when they show up to compete against the skaters you have researched thoroughly?

How is that fair or anything like an even playing field. Far from solving the problem of reputation judging, that approach would only exacerbate it.

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You are so focused on individual circumstances, you are missing the big picture.
A good judging system should fit the level they are judging, not make all the levels fit the judging system.

By familiarizing everything with at least the Top 20 every season in their specialised components including their skating history, repertoire, pros/cons, they should hopefully have enough information to compare with unknown skaters on like by like basis.

I disagree. I believe that skaters should be judged on what they do that day.

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It should not be a zero sum game. How they came to deliver what they are able to, degrees of difficulty/quality they are trying to achieve should be just as important what they did. Advanced level of original choreography are harder to achieve, how else do you reward them, how else do you ensure judges are capable of recongise these consistently.

But for many of those aspects, they are only relevant insofar as they support the relevant skills being judged.
There are no scores, no criteria for hair, makeup, costumes, or cultural awareness. It's perfectly legal to compete in a plain unadorned practice outfit with no makeup, no hair styling beyond keeping the hair out of the skater's eyes. No requirement for skaters to incorporate knowledge of the source of their music into their skating performance or even to know where it came from or what the lyrics (if any) are about. If the movement fits the sound of the music, if the rhythm and mood of the movement match the rhythm and mood of the music, that's all that figure skating asks for.

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Hence the conundrum of the PCS judging system. You say it doesn't matter, but it clearly does affect the overall impression and add to the score. PCS should not just be skill based, otherwise it is like reducing great paintings to perfect line strokes as long it fit inside the box.

If a skater chooses to do more, they're welcome to do so. But they can't count on international audiences and judging pools to have the same associations.

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Please see my reply above to chillgil question on how else do you quantify difficulty and quality.

If a female Korean skater chooses to skate to the theme music of a Korean TV show, should she expect all judges to be familiar with the characters and storylines? What if the music is beautiful enough that a male Swedish skater wants to choose the same music the following season? Does he need to go research the TV show and make sure to use music cuts and movement styles associated with male characters in the story? Or can he just use a piece of music that he loves and make up his own storyline or abstract concept reflecting the music as an isolated piece of music?

Would it make a difference if the music had been a classical composition (Korean or otherwise) that existed in its own right with no associated storyline before the Korean TV show chose it as their theme vs. having been composed specifically for the TV show?

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One of the most important music development is improvisation and it allows you to develop sensitivity, empathy to react to any unfamiliar music, lyrical qualities and rhythm and appreciate what makes someone great vs someone poorer. Judges should able to react to any unfamiliar music, even without cultural context to take anything at face value, but that should not stop them getting familiarize with the music once they are introduced.

If they're going to ensure that all skaters can compete against each other fairly within the rules, then it would be HIGHLY unfair to ask judges to research the competitive history of top skaters and not of other skaters who will be entered in the same events.

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As mentioned above, the whole purpose is to be familiar with a standard, what separates them, not just who they are applying to. Similar to how art historians and critics are familiar with the past are more credible to make the assessment of current (including what was overvalued, undervalued), instead of taking everything at face value. Be concious of what they don't know should be as important as what they know.

You said:

You tell me. Do ice dancing (a branch of figure skating, originated as ballroom dancing on ice) or rhythmic gymnastics require processes to develop self-awareness. Always in the works, alive, ever changing, not stagnant, not just an end result, not tracing the steps? Certainly, there have been times when ice dancers have chosen to prioritize artistic meaning. And the rules have often tightened up in response to decrease the subjectiveness of the scoring that led to inconsistent results and sometimes allowed weaker skaters to win on the strength of better choreography. And then at other times the rules have loosened up to encourage creativity. And even then the best skaters have not always taken full advantage of the artistic options open to them.

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Awareness of self is the higher learning of developing value in art. Creativity, Originality, Authenticity should theoretically all matter when appraising quality. Whether judges are willing to recognize these is up to their discretion, but it is not the same as not developed the ability understand, to care, to be aware of it, account for it, or blatently disregard it. There are million ways to interpret/choreograph to the same piece of music, what makes one better than the other.

If they choose monotonous music, it's a lot harder to demonstrate variety and contrast. Does that mean that a skater who can find enough subtleties in such music to show contrast should be rewarded more for taking on a harder task? Or penalized for not showing as wide a range? Should skaters who choose music with very obvious contrasts, with very obvious phrasing, be rewarded for making those qualities exceptionally clear? Or penalized for choosing music that made it easier for them to do a good job?

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It is one of those things where it is not either / or but needs to be seen and felt to be assessed. Everything is interdependent, e.g style, choice, the content of choreography working with the music edit, technical requirements, beyond the technical requirement, what the skater previously did, what they are suited, unsuited if it has already been proven to be successful, and whether it successfully deliver the intention of the creative direction. Otherwise, you don't even need to watch these performances anymore.

OS said:

Not impossible. How else are you suppose to justify risk and rewards under PCS? To distinct difficulty and quality like you would under TES (base value, GOE). A young ambitious/unknown prodigy like Hanyu can come up with an artistically/technically difficult (beyond TES elements), well constructed, well delivered original choreography that he is able to present in very polished format well beyond his years, should be at least be closer to the composition, PE, Interpretation vs 3 year Phantom of the Opera from Patrick Chan even with best SS in the field. The current judging trend doesn't allow this.

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Well, judges are free to take such factors into consideration when marking if they so choose -- there is enough flexibility in the component criteria that judges could justify their decisions on those bases. So in that sense it is "allowed." But the rules and traditions of judging figure skating have never under any judging system in any era of the sport's history asked judges to consider the artistic development of individual skaters when scoring a performance, let alone required judges to keep track of individual skaters' past performances or results.

And certainly not to keep track of some and not other skaters who will be competing in the same event.

How do you think art appraisal works, antique dealer works? They don't need to be familiar with every single piece of art like the back of their hand, but they need to know enough the wide range of standard at the top for comparison, being familiar enough with all factors that can weigh into justifying these values, to base their decisions within objective criteria/framework to make accurate assessments.

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Yes, judges should be familiar with the recent and not-so-recent history of the sport, to know what current trends are, what previous trends have been to have a sense of what's retro or old-fashioned or truly innovative. And that includes knowing what's common at lower levels in order to recognize when elite athletes are relying on skating cliches, or the rare instances when they may be commenting on those cliches by putting a new twist on them.

It also helps for to be familiar with the most commonly used music sources so they can recognizes the pieces by name and have some sense the original material and whether the program choreography is drawing on movements from the original off-ice version of the work.

But there's no way any given judge can be familiar with every possible music source, especially if skaters are to be encouraged to show originality.

Just as there's no way any given judge can be familiar with the competitive or artistic history of every skater who shows up at Worlds.

5 black handbags of similar dimensions, what makes one better than another? How would you price them?

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Well, don't ask me about pricing. My opinions on that score would have more to do with utility of the bag as a bag, manufacturing costs including but not limited to the designer's contractual compensation, and supply/demand than on inherent artistic worthiness.

But if we were going to score them on artistic worth, I would prefer to score them according to established principles of what makes an artistic or well-designed handbag. Which means having some familiarity with the history of handbag design, including awareness of innovative materials and techniques that allow design choices that may not have been possible years earlier.

But I could score 5 handbags according to those principles without knowing who designed each one. And certainly without knowing what specific bags each designer had come up with last year.

A good judging system should fit the level they are judging, not make all the levels fit the judging system.

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So there should be a different judging system for every level of competition?

Does that include different rules for average seniors and for top-ranked elite seniors, even when they're entered in the same event and might find themselves going head to head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sJHcTimWU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L0ITzIJyb4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAfAbSWCPo0

Should judges have different standards for these three performances even though they turned out to be in direct competition with each other for the same reward (advancement to the free skate)?

By familiarizing everything with at least the Top 20 every season in their specialised components including their skating history, repertoire, pros/cons, they should hopefully have enough information to compare with unknown skaters on like by like basis.

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Yes. By comparing all of today's performances to the same standard. Not by comparing Skater A to what Skater A did last year and Skater B to what Skater B did two years ago and Skater C to the broader standard only because this is her first year competing at this level.

How they came to deliver what they are able to, degrees of difficulty/quality they are trying to achieve should be just as important what they did.

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Why?

Hence the conundrum of the PCS judging system. You say it doesn't matter, but it clearly does affect the overall impression and add to the score. PCS should not just be skill based, otherwise it is like reducing great paintings to perfect line strokes as long it fit inside the box.

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A contest to determine which painter you want to honor with medals or slots in a gallery show based on artistic merit would have different criteria than a contest to determine who is the most skilled at executing the best and most difficult variety of technical painting techniques in an aesthetically satisfying manner, and both would have different criteria than a contest to determine who should win the contract for painting all the hallway and bathroom and offices in a large office building or who should win the contract for executing the painting of a mural reproducing an already-selected photograph in the office building lobby.

The point of Olympic-style figure skating competition is essentially the second kind of contest listed above: determining who can execute the most difficult and most varied skills with the best quality, in an aesthetically pleasing manner. If it happens to rise to the level of great art, that's a bonus, but it's not the point of the contest.

(Of course no such contests exist in the field of painting. But in theory, painting technicians could put together a competition circuit to determine who is the most skilled.)

In the art contest, it would be perfectly acceptable to leave out difficult skills or whole categories of skills that don't add to the artistic vision, because there the artistry is primary and the technical skills are only means to artistic ends.

The ISU does not hold such contests for skating. They could. Or other sponsors could with or without ISU sanctioning. And that would be the context where your criteria would be relevant.

Awareness of self is the higher learning of developing value in art.

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Great. Promote it in an arts context.

This has been an interesting thread to follow because of the artistry discussion and I kind of hope that gkelly and/or OS will start that thread on PCS/artistry judging because this discussion here gets hidden under a misleading topic. The actual question of repeating or not is perhaps not of such great importance - skaters have been doing it always for varying reasons and we as fans just have to live with it.

I tend to agree more with the take gkelly has on skating and judging artistry and repeating programs etc. than what OS has. After all, figure skating is a competetive sport, albeit one with a very strong artistic leaning compared to eg rhythmic gymnastics. OS rallies for great artistry which does not usually come out even when the competetive element is taken away - shows tend to be much worse in terms of artistry at least in my opinion. Less time and effort used for the choreographies and practicing them, the lack of technical difficulty takes away some of the excitement and glory also.

But in the art dance world there are also competitions where juries judge the contestants on video, in class and on stage (in varying combinations depending on which competition is in question). I have sometimes watched these, but claim no expert knowledge! Usually the contestants perform a routine from a fairly limited repertoire. The first round tends to be classical ballet and - I think - the familiar ballet variations are used to test the technical skill of the dancers as well as their star quality - if you can shine in a group doing the same old Coppelia or Kitri, then you probably have what it takes? In the second round there is sometimes a possibility or even a requirement to select a modern choreography and the choice can be free. This already sounds kind of familiar, right? SP and FS... (Well, at least in some competitions.)

The juries usually consist of groups of dance professionals and their criteria of evaluation is most commonly not explained in any way - I gather they watch the performances and the whole jury discusses the performances and dancers to reach the final results. They can also choose not the give out eg a first prize if the quality of the dancers is not high enough in their minds. Lots of professional, but somewhat subjective judging there. They reach the results by way of discussion and the result is something that the jury can agree upon (I'm sure there are bloody battles behind the scenes, though). They take more time than in skating competitions and are less restricted by rules, but still it is that combination of technical skills and the ability to express emotion and act the part which usually ends on top.

Even in the art dance world, when it is about competition, there are certain ways to test the technical ability and to evaluate the artistry of the dancer, it is not all about the art it is also very much about the technical skills. (And this is perhaps why most of the big ballet competitions center on classical ballet and not contemporary or modern dance? Classical is more about technical virtuosity, modern about freedom and expression?)

In figure skating, only ice dance has resorted to using a set of choreographies to test the skaters' skills (and I guess in a way the school figures did the same thing) and that has been almost abolished now. I don't think that ISu would choose to have competitions where single skaters and pair had to choose from a set of choreographies for SP - even though personally I think that would be absolutely amazing to watch.

Repeat programs could work in that way for some skaters - gkelly's list above was interesting to watch in that respect. But on the other hand if the repeated program was already performed to perfection, why do it again?

E

eppen said:

But on the other hand if the repeated program was already performed to perfection, why do it again?

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To win another medal (especially in an Olympic year when a once-every-4-years medal is up for grabs)?

Or just to get best possible competitive results at whatever level the skater has so far achieved by using a program they're comfortable with and know judges appreciate?

Or to (try to) repeat on a larger stage a successful performance that hardly anyone got to see? If a perfect performance happened at a national competition in a small country, or a sectional competition in a larger skating country, or at a senior B event, with 100 people in the audience and no video, isn't there every incentive for the skater to try to repeat it at Worlds?

To share their masterpiece with a larger audience in an Olympic year?

Even if there was a perfect performance at Worlds with less than 1 million TV viewers, why not try to repeat it at the next Olympics where many millions might be tuning in?

Of course if the skater feels they have nothing more to accomplish or to communicate by repeating the performance, then they might prefer to take on a new challenge.

Skater's choice.

wow, the posts are so long in this thread

So it's confirmed that Ashley is repeating Hip Hop and Moulin Rouge? An Olympic virus going around?

Maybe we should revive the compulsory dance but put it into single skating. Everyone skates the same program to the same music with the same steps and same jumps, so the focus can be on who masters the tech and interprets the music the best.

all that said:

Maybe we should revive the compulsory dance but put it into single skating. Everyone skates the same program to the same music with the same steps and same jumps, so the focus can be on who masters the tech and interprets the music the best.

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I think skaters are under an extreme amount of pressure and an Oly year is just over the top pressure.
If Ashley feels comfortable with Moulin Rouge I say go for it. The music fits her style and it has served her well.

KwanIsALegend said:

I think skaters are under an extreme amount of pressure and an Oly year is just over the top pressure.
If Ashley feels comfortable with Moulin Rouge I say go for it. The music fits her style and it has served her well.

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She should feel extremely comfortable. These programs together will make a 5-peat.

I think at this point it may be easier to list who isn't repeating a program/ skating to a warhorse. I get that's it's the Olympics, but part of creating that moment is to have unique and original moment. Hard to do when people have already replayed your program for years.

frida80 said:

I think at this point it may be easier to list who isn't repeating a program/ skating to a warhorse. I get that's it's the Olympics, but part of creating that moment is to have unique and original moment. Hard to do when people have already replayed your program for years.

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There are people and then there are P.E.O.P.L.E..

Violet Bliss said:

There are people and then there are P.E.O.P.L.E..

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And then there are judges.

Violet Bliss said:

She should feel extremely comfortable. These programs together will make a 5-peat.

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No, a 3-peat. In all fairness, I don't think we can count the first Hip Hip Chin Chin or the first Moulin Rouge as repeats.

Maybe Ashley wants to go with a known quantity, in order to concentrate her efforts on skating clean. She's entitled to choose programs that showcase her skating and interpretation talents best. As is every skater.

andromache said:

I see some fans in here trying to have it both ways.

1. I'm so excited to see Seimei again! It was the best program ever, and I'm glad he is doing something he is comfortable with that we know people will appreciate.

2. Yuzuru is putting in just as much effort into "re-working" Seimei as someone who does a completely new program.

Um, if Seimei is going to basically be an entirely new program, why are you so excited to see it "again"? If it's going to be soooooo completely re-worked, how are we so sure that he will be as comfortable with it as the original? If that's the case, wouldn't it just be easier to get music from a new source? There are plenty of Japanese music sources that have gone unused by figure skaters, and many of them might not even be too different from Seimei, and will have plenty of mass appeal.

Skaters don't owe us anything and they can decide to do whatever they want - but we as fans are completely within our rights to be disappointed. We don't owe skaters our undying love and appreciation.

I'm usually 100% on board with skaters repeating a program, especially in an Olympic season when it's important to know what works and what doesn't work for such a huge, mainstream audience - but repeating two in one season goes a little beyond the pale for me, especially since he's already done the SP two season already. If Ashley Wagner was repeating Hip Hip Chin Chin AND Moulin Rouge, I think this entire board (Ashley fans included) would be dragging her choice through the mud.

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Dude, can you predict some other things too?

Moulin Rouge from Ashley was never as good choreographically as it should have been. I'd love to see a better version but the problem is...I don't think she will actual take it to where it should be.

Mango said:

Dude, can you predict some other things too?

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I found one

FCSSp4 said:

I wouldn't mind Ashley repeating both her programs from the 2015-2016 season bec she's so good at interpretation that I wouldn't put it past her to be more than capable to pull it off (her FS at Worlds '16 gave me goosebumps regardless of the UR calls unclear edges), but if there's anyone I have faith in to capture La La Land, it would be her. Given how concussions have been a problem in the past for Ashley, I'd completely understand. Everyone has their reasons why they choose the programs they do.

I think if people were a lot more understanding for these hardworking people, we'd learn to be more appreciative of their contribution to the sport.

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Here's a quote from Ashley's interview in July.


http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/...lks-concussions-costumes-collisions-body-2017

I am not expert but I think she really needs muscular memory.
In my job, I do some procedures with my hands, I have noticed that what I do physically I do it more in automatic after several practices, my brain can to think of other things and my hands will automatically finish the job, she really needs 1 or 2 years to master it?, especially considering that her programs are not the most difficult ones?, I'm sorry but it does not seem a very credible excuse to repeat a program for the third time. We have even seen her avoid zayak in some competitions.

I am not saying that she has not those problems, surely she has some difficulties about it, but I don´t think that is the reason to change the program.

I have to admit, I was pretty surprised to see that Ashley will do Moulin Rouge again. It's good that she recognizes that LaLa land wasn't working early on in the season so she can avoid the panic and rush she had while switching programs mid season in 2014. It works for her and everyone should feel they are putting their best stuff out there in an Olympic year.
But... I'll admit I'm a little bummed we won't see LaLa Land. Jackie Wong's The Making Of video was really fun to watch, and I would have liked the chance to see the result of the process.