Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

chapis said:

this is figure skating, do you really think that everything is judged objectively?
Currently, they evaluate things that in my opinion are more subjective than to notice if someone varies their programs and / or their style.
They could start by applying this judgment only to seniors, of whom it is evident that we expect more, since they are the best in the world, who are not doing this like a hobby, but as a career.

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But not all senior skaters are the best in the world. Not all of them are doing it as a career -- in fact the vast majority of senior level skaters spend more on training than they will ever earn back from skating. And getting new programs can be an added expense that would take away from their training funds.

So should there be different rules about what music or choreography skaters are allowed/rewarded/penalized to use at Worlds or Olympics than at the average senior B event? That would be possible but might cause problems for skaters who find themselves qualifying for Worlds without having expected that was possible the previous spring when they chose their programs.

Should there be different rules at Worlds etc. for medal contenders (the best in the world) vs. skaters who are just hoping to make top 24 in the short but don't really expect to get to skate their free programs at that level? That doesn't seem workable.

As I asked in an earlier post, who would be responsible for keeping track of what the skaters did last year or the year before, if this is their first year competing at this level?

Not to mention all the complications of defining exactly what qualifies as "the same" or "new." It's often not an either/or determination, so someone would have to draw an official line somewhere.

Or... you could just leave it up to judges to reward versatility or penalize repetition over the years if they happen to be familiar with a skater's previous oeuvre and to assume that all programs are new this year if they never saw a given skater before.

but isn't it unfair in terms of musical interpretation for a skater to be reusing old material... as of course, they get better and better at connecting with music and audience from skating competition after competition?

or is it the case that judges would be less "moved or touched" as a performance is repeated for second or third year?

Finally, as a performer, progress often comes from new challenges... new programs help skaters to achieve new artistic level.... skaters who reused the same programs may have a lesser learning curve when putting them back on the ice, but they may also not improve as much as skaters challenging themselves with new ideas and concepts.

I follow many other sports... and when we consider the main objective : winning... then it seems logical to repeat programs.....

but as a fan, it is disappointing.. but eh!!!! there are tons of new programs out there to watch... not everyone is doing their old programs.

gkelly said:

But not all senior skaters are the best in the world. Not all of them are doing it as a career -- in fact the vast majority of senior level skaters spend more on training than they will ever earn back from skating. And getting new programs can be an added expense that would take away from their training funds.

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We are not going to pretend now that some skaters do not get advantages using their money. Getting better costumes, better musicians or music editions, managing to pay for choreographies of the best or most prestigious choreographers, afford the luxury of paying for several choreographies that will end up being discarded, managing to pay trips to go to compete wherever they want. I am not saying that it should be forbidden repeat programs or that the skaters are obliged to have only original choreographies, I speak of being given an incentive to those who are original. There are skaters who can´t go to more competitions because of money, what are we going to do? Would we take away points from skaters who can afford to travel to those competitions because it is economically unfair to others?

chapis said:

We are not going to pretend now that some skaters do not get advantages using their money. Getting better costumes, better musicians or music editions, managing to pay for choreographies of the best or most prestigious choreographers, afford the luxury of paying for several choreographies that will end up being discarded, managing to pay trips to go to compete wherever they want. I am not saying that it should be forbidden repeat programs or that the skaters are obliged to have only original choreographies, I speak of being given an incentive to those who are original. There are skaters who can´t go to more competitions because of money, what are we going to do? Would we take away points from skaters who can afford to travel to those competitions because it is economically unfair to others?

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When skaters compete internationally, they represent their federations which send them and pay their travel expenses.

wanted to go here & rant about Ashley repeating MR but posts about concussions really cooled me
if thats the case I totally support her.

So Ashley is repeating her SP for a 2nd time and now is doing MR for a 3rd season? So much for being an artistic skater if she was more versatile with the kind of music and style she skates to she wouldn't need to keep repeating programs.

I don't understand why is skater getting a new program automatically assumed to be challenging themselves artistically? Shouldn't we see the programs first before making such judgment? A new program could easily be an old program disguised as new, or the skater may decide to focus on landing their jumps and start ignoring choreography (lets not pretend that this never happens), where is the artistic development then? What if they use the exact same jump layout and same transitions and only change the step sequence or their upper body movement, are they challenging themselves? is this actually harder than someone repeating choreography but changing the layout?

People who are suggesting penalties need to answer those questions as well as the questions gkelly have been asking over and over again, if you want fairness then suggest fair solutions. your feeling we can accept and respect but they can not be a criteria for scoring, because that is exactly what being unfair is.

Do notice that for each repeat discussed here there are people who are happy about it and others who are upset, so there is no such thing as "people" will think this or that, and I can say the exact same thing about new programs. We do not all have the same opinion neither do the judges, and there is no one opinion that is more valuable than others.

The "penalty" for a repeat shouldn't be automatic - it is context-dependent. I do think that in front of a figure skating audience - an audience who follows figure skating, so not necessarily an Olympic audience - that it's possible an audience will be less excited if they've seen something several times before. Seeing Yuzu go clean on a program for the first time is a huge thrill, as is seeing Ashley commit 100% to her character and perform to the rafters. But for some fans, the more we see it, the less exciting it is. The responses of audience members in the building matters. They influence scores, though sure, other posters will selectively quote me and mock my saying that fan or audience opinions matter.

During an Olympic year this kind of thing matters a heck of a lot less though, because Olympic audiences aren't your typical skating audience. They aren't fans who have seen it all before or followed the sport.

Though I do think there will be a judge or two over the course of the season who decide they're bored with Ashley as Satine or Yuzu's Chopin and give them a lower PCS. Skating is subjective, and I'm sure there are judges out there who agree with some posters here that repeating programs so much merits lower scores.

I regret ever posting what I did about Ashley reusing MR. The only source I got it from was a TSL tweet. I have no proof. Just like I have no proof on Gracie.
TSL has been MIA since the end of last season. Who knows if they're even in the middle of all the off-season action?
I can't wait til the season really begins and I can find out for sure.

I'm absolutely annoyed by the number of repeats we will face next season, but I'm also against banning repeating completely

There have been programs in the past, for example Ashley's moulin rouge, that needed a second season to turn out into the masterpiece it eventually became. I wouldn't want to miss that.
Still, I believe this sheer number of repeats next season is not what is wished for in figure skating, therefore I propose the following rule changes:

- skaters who finished in the top 5 at worlds last season must get at least one new program the following season.
this way, skaters with a low income don't have to break a leg to afford new choreography, as the top 5 at worlds usually have some kind of sponsoring going on to sustain new programs and costumes every season
also, this enables the skater to keep one program to polish it

- skaters who finished in the top 5 at worlds last season are allowed to repeat, if injury or the likes prevent them from getting a new program or performing their programs less than three times past season.

- skaters in the top 5 who still repeat their programs even if there is no valid reason to do so (like injury), receive a penalty of -1 in every PCS category. So if someone would have scored a 10 in CH, then it's only a 9 then.

- skaters in the top 5 who just use different music, but 90% of their choreography stays the same, also should receive a penalty of -0,5 in every PCS category.

- threepeats are forbidden for skaters who placed in the top ten at last season's worlds.

A few issues got conflated here. It is not about any particular skater, but about giving proportionate reward which certainly will determine someone's strategy to compete under a point lead system.

Competitors should have complete freedom to follow ANY strategy INCLUDING repeating programs OR if they want to up the difficulty of their choreographic programs etc.. The point is what is the proportionate reward?

PCS is capped system so it is the gap score that separate skaters that approximate risk/reward unlike under TES where is uncapped.

This is made complicated by a PCS guideline that seems disingenuously rewarding artistic side of the sport in recognising difficulty and quality, and does not, in fact, work in practice under the current capped system when you have top 5 virtually tied at in the mid 9s out of 10 already, but the difficulty, risk/reward, effort of their program can shapeshift year by year on a relative basis, and execution quality can vary competition by competition but they hardly ever show up on the score.

What motivation is there than for any elite skaters already getting 9s in PCS to up anything other than up their technical, which they are certain to be rewarded for it?

This affects the lower rank skaters less because there is always room at the top in PCS when they are in their 5s, where as the elite skaters maxed out already, thus effort does not equal the reward.

A fair contest in theory should be all inclusive, including able to reward someone who decide they wish to skate a great new program that can showcase their improved skating skills with increased level of difficulty in choreography that is superbly musical, mature, intelligently and emotionally well delivered relative to the rest of the field including some who did not bring anything new and were in fact made easier compare to last year. This is not possible under the current scoring system. Or at least to the degree it deserves to make any meaningful differences.

andromache said:

The "penalty" for a repeat shouldn't be automatic - it is context-dependent.

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What kind of "context" would that be?

Seeing Yuzu go clean on a program for the first time is a huge thrill, as is seeing Ashley commit 100% to her character and perform to the rafters. But for some fans, the more we see it, the less exciting it is. The responses of audience members in the building matters. They influence scores, though sure, other posters will selectively quote me and mock my saying that fan or audience opinions matter.

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If that last part is directed partly at me - I'll repeat what I said before: audience in attendance =/= internet folks commenting on these decisions before we've even seen the programs in their possibly new versions. Plus, if you'd like to be on the safe side, maybe you should kind of bring on some arguments that proof your point, instead of just repeating it and stating it as fact. I'd still think something like Evgenias LP last season is rather an example for fan opinion not being that influential on the judges marks. (Although, it has to be said, live audiences I was part of appreciated Evgenia well enough. Fan voices on the internet though, not so much).

And honestly, if Yuzu skating a program clean will just get "less exciting" for audiences the more we see it... that's hardly his problem. And I doubt it as well.

^^Given how difficult the layout the top men are doing, I don't think it's that easy to have absolutely clean programs. A good performance is already enough for the audience to be happy.

4everchan said:

but isn't it unfair in terms of musical interpretation for a skater to be reusing old material... as of course, they get better and better at connecting with music and audience from skating competition after competition?

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So Hanyu, Ashley and everyone else who are repeating programs have a special dispensation where they are allowed to do this and others are not?

The only way this can be "unfair" is if everyone did not have the same opportunity, yet they do. We are back to the exact same nonsensical argument that we have with tano, rippons and backloading. Skaters choose what they're going to do. They choose new or old programs, they choose to shift most of their jumps to the second half, they choose to use tano or rippon in their jumps.
Everyone has the same rules being applied and the same opportunities and if they choose not to take some of those, for whatever reason, that is their choice.

or is it the case that judges would be less "moved or touched" as a performance is repeated for second or third year?

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This is a sport that has a set of rules outlined for the judges to use when scoring. There is nothing in the current set of rules that either forbids repeated programs or incurs a penalty for the same. As such, the judges need to apply those rules when scoring skaters, so if the program is skated well, they need to score appropriately, even if they have seen the same program a dozen times.

All of that without actually even getting into the argument that has been repeated here several times - a well performed piece is a well performed piece, or we'd be watching an opera/play and hearing a musical piece once or twice. We do not because it is not about repetition, it is about quality of work.

andromache said:

The "penalty" for a repeat shouldn't be automatic - it is context-dependent.

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Yes, that's not open to manipulation at all. But then this is what you'd like so not surprised at the suggestion.

Skating is subjective, and I'm sure there are judges out there who agree with some posters here that repeating programs so much merits lower scores.

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You can certainly hope for that. They are also certainly welcome to lower the scores of a skated program based on something that does not exist as a criteria in the ISU rules. Of course, every action has a reaction, something to keep in mind.

Yatagarasu said:

All of that without actually even getting into the argument that has been repeated here several times - a well performed piece is a well performed piece, or we'd be watching an opera/play and hearing a musical piece once or twice. We do not because it is not about repetition, it is about quality of work.

You can certainly hope for that. They are also certainly welcome to lower the scores of a skated program based on something that does not exist as a criteria in the ISU rules. Of course, every action has a reaction, something to keep in mind.

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Actually, "originality" and "creativity," along with "individuality," appear in IN, PE, and CH components. Those are very fluid terms, and the ISU does not define them. However, I think a judge could easily think that a re-used program is less original and creative than it was when it first appeared, and score it accordingly. Some judges will disagree and continue to reward those programs. This is a subjective sport, and some judges interpret the scoring rules very differently from others. If this were not the case, then we could just have computers assign scores based on objective criteria and no one could argue about scoring anymore. It's not black and white.

Yes, that's not open to manipulation at all. But then this is what you'd like so not surprised at the suggestion.

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Please refrain from making personal attacks based on assumptions about me that don't even make sense. Thanks .

Li'Kitsu said:

What kind of "context" would that be?

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Like anything subjective in figure skating, it all depends on the individual audience and individual judges. :confused2: I do not think there should be any sort of mandatory penalty for repeating music or programs, but if any individual judge doesn't like it, or if Ashley doesn't get a standing ovation from Moulin Rouge because a particular audience is bored, we could see it reflected in the scores. Scores are subjective. Many factors matters.

If that last part is directed partly at me - I'll repeat what I said before: audience in attendance =/= internet folks commenting on these decisions before we've even seen the programs in their possibly new versions. Plus, if you'd like to be on the safe side, maybe you should kind of bring on some arguments that proof your point, instead of just repeating it and stating it as fact. I'd still think something like Evgenias LP last season is rather an example for fan opinion not being that influential on the judges marks. (Although, it has to be said, live audiences I was part of appreciated Evgenia well enough. Fan voices on the internet though, not so much).

And honestly, if Yuzu skating a program clean will just get "less exciting" for audiences the more we see it... that's hardly his problem. And I doubt it as well.

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If you do not think that audience reaction matters, then how do you explain the higher PCS that skaters seem to get performing in front of home audiences than when performing in front of foreign audiences? Is it cheating or politics? IMO, the most innocent and obvious explanation is that home crowds make it way easier for a skater to bring the house down, and that level of emotion in an arena full of people is going to impact judges' perception of the program, and yes, inflate their scores. It's simply how emotion works. How many opinionated internet fans are in any given audience is a whole other issue and not one I'm really interested in - moreso in the reaction of live audiences.

Eclair said:

Still, I believe this sheer number of repeats next season is not what is wished for in figure skating, therefore I propose the following rule changes:

- skaters who finished in the top 5 at worlds last season must get at least one new program the following season.
this way, skaters with a low income don't have to break a leg to afford new choreography, as the top 5 at worlds usually have some kind of sponsoring going on to sustain new programs and costumes every season
also, this enables the skater to keep one program to polish it

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OK.
Of course, that allows skaters who finished 6-7-8 last year, or who won two years ago but had an off year last year, to repeat programs. If it's such a big advantage to repeat, then that advantage plus a significant penalty to top skaters who repeat should result in skaters cycling in and out of the top 5 each year, especially the 3-4-5 slots.

Which will be more fun for the audience than seeing the same skaters doing the same programs on the podium/in the final group each year. But is it sporting?

- skaters who finished in the top 5 at worlds last season are allowed to repeat, if injury or the likes prevent them from getting a new program or performing their programs less than three times past season.

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Who keeps track? What counts of "performing their programs less than three times"? Do nationals or other domestic competitions count? What about senior B event? What about performing the program with full jump content in a show?

- skaters in the top 5 who still repeat their programs even if there is no valid reason to do so (like injury), receive a penalty of -1 in every PCS category.

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Including Skating Skills and Transitions? Really?

What if they added more transitions this year after they got comfortable with the basic layout of the program? Should that score really go down?
What if they're skating with more speed and confidence born more from the validation of their first top-5 finish last year than from the the fact of a repeat program?

- skaters in the top 5 who just use different music, but 90% of their choreography stays the same, also should receive a penalty of -0,5 in every PCS category.

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How do you define "90% of their choreography"? Who keeps track?

- threepeats are forbidden for skaters who placed in the top ten at last season's worlds.

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Again, who keeps track?
Year 1: Skater didn't make it out of their nationals. Or competed on the JGP but weren't old enough for seniors and maybe didn't make it to Jr. Worlds.
Year 2: Skater debuts at Worlds with a promising 10th-place finish, with a program hardly anyone had seen before outside of their home country even though it's the second year they're using it. The program was well received.
Year 3: Skater competes in their first Grand Prix with a new program, but it just isn't working for them. After trying to tweak it and getting more and more frustrated, they decide to go back to the comfortable program for this year's Worlds -- which may be only the 2nd internationally televised competition ever they've skated it at.

gkelly said:

whole post

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All of your questions are excellent points, and exactly why I think rules regarding repeating programs or choreography would do more harm than good. Judges are human beings who love figure skating as much as we do, and they can make their own decisions regarding what is "original" or "creative" versus what is stale or overdone. A program as beloved as Ashley's Moulin Rouge or Hanyu's Chopin can seem boring and unoriginal after three seasons. To someone else, those programs might be better than ever, with new life re-infused into them because of whatever changes they've made, and seem very creative. Judges will have different opinions. And that's okay.

Eclair said:

I'm absolutely annoyed by the number of repeats we will face next season, but I'm also against banning repeating completely

There have been programs in the past, for example Ashley's moulin rouge, that needed a second season to turn out into the masterpiece it eventually became. I wouldn't want to miss that.
Still, I believe this sheer number of repeats next season is not what is wished for in figure skating, therefore I propose the following rule changes:

- skaters who finished in the top 5 at worlds last season must get at least one new program the following season.
this way, skaters with a low income don't have to break a leg to afford new choreography, as the top 5 at worlds usually have some kind of sponsoring going on to sustain new programs and costumes every season
also, this enables the skater to keep one program to polish it

- skaters who finished in the top 5 at worlds last season are allowed to repeat, if injury or the likes prevent them from getting a new program or performing their programs less than three times past season.

- skaters in the top 5 who still repeat their programs even if there is no valid reason to do so (like injury), receive a penalty of -1 in every PCS category. So if someone would have scored a 10 in CH, then it's only a 9 then.

- skaters in the top 5 who just use different music, but 90% of their choreography stays the same, also should receive a penalty of -0,5 in every PCS category.

- threepeats are forbidden for skaters who placed in the top ten at last season's worlds.

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I personally don't like rules that only apply only to a subset of the participants, but I will not argue this as it is a preference.

Can you please define what qualifies as a "new program" in your scenario? and also explain why the skating skills and transitions marks should get a deduction when someone repeats a program? I am curious about your reasoning behind this

Whenever someone mentions lowering scores for repeated programs, as a rule or because judges might be as tired of them as the public (this public being the internet-dwellers who follow everything, not the one at home who tunes in for Worlds or Olympics), I wonder if they forget there's a really big pool of international judges to score competitions and most of them will probably not have seen a program more than once if at all? So they're being asked to automatically deck points in PCS on a program they might have never seen skated before and might think was amazing, just on the principle of 'fairness' to others?

Yatagarasu said:

post.

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if you go back in the thread, i was one of the first posters here to say i understood as an athlete why Hanyu is repeating his programs... and also, that as a fan, who cares if I am not happy or not as what is important for his team is to find the best vehicle to win.

My recent post was built with two rhetorical and opposing questions, exposing why this topic is still debated after several pages because it does create an odd situation. I remember how many complaints Duhamel and Radford got for earlier in the season when they announced reusing Muse, even if it's supposed to have been revamped by Kerr. .but now, some of these same fans are supportive with other skaters reusing programs..... double-standard.... people complained because that's the program they won WC with... and they shouldn't reuse it... oh really???? they are trying to find the best vehicle to win... but people complain... so why is not okay for them but fine for others?

I think that we are in an odd situation this year with so many skaters reusing older programs and it goes with something people have been mentioning about for a long time : quaddity vs quality. Or substance vs style. Why even bother with music if it's a race to who has the most quads landed in 4 minutes... ? There is less and less research invested in programs, less and less innovation.... How many times will we get to see an hydroblade, a cantilever, any gimmicky choreographic movement that sometimes doesn't even work with the music? Is that necessary?

Look at gymnastics : for the floor exercise : women do use music... men don't .... men just tumble, no dance choreography. Are skaters sending this message if music is kept for more than one season? Style has become secondary?

I agree with one thing : it's available for everyone to repeat or not. But the truth here is that some fans are more lenient and forgiving when some athletes do it than others... I mentioned D/R, well it was worse with Salé and Pelletier when they brought back love story they got a lot of flack for it...

I do not like double standards, that is all. Same with scrutinizing jump quality/rotation for specific skaters but giving a pass to others.