Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

gravy said:

All due respect, but it really isn't a new trend. I'd say Patrick Chan really spearheaded the trend to reuse programs in the IJS era until well after all the magic has been sucked out. Go back to 2014 when he kept his Elegy short program from the prior season and returned to Four Seasons in his free skate for the third time in his career.

#TrendSetter #NeverGetsTheRespectHeDeserves

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In his early career, Patrick sometimes kept one program and introduced a new one each season. The reason was that his programs were particularly complex requiring more preparation to be ready. The Four Seasons he skated to in 2013-14 was a completely different program choreographed by a different choreographer with different cuts of the music and with different elements and layout. It was a completely different program from the one 8 years earlier and he didn't repeat it after that season. In fact, he skated to a new LP every season during the last Olympic quadrennial except that Phantasia of 2010-11 was retained from an injury shortened previous season in a different quadrennial. And he has been introducing completely new programs every season since his comeback for this quadrennial. He has never done two repeated programs in the same season like what others are doing now and is hardly the strawman to be singled out for ridicule here and now.

Yatagarasu said:

I checked, the posters who went after D/R aren't even posting in this thread, and certainly aren't defending Ashley/Hanyu, so I don't see how we're reached the point where there are double standards.

Regardless of that, the 'unfair' that Hanyu got slapped with, as well as the 'lazy' appellation that first popped up with D/R, is not something that has any place here. Disappointment is one thing, slapping those labels, and factually incorrect statements onto skaters is another. And yes, as far as I am concerned, it's fine for all of them to choose repeat programs.



That has nothing to do with repeating programs. It can be a brand new program, and still have a choreographic element that does not fit the music. In both cases, old or new program, the judges already have an option of marking down the appropriate component. As for an actual repeat of the element, who is going to say how many times is too much? You can only use an IB five times in your career? Two? Three? Four for hydroblade? Six for something else? If you restrict those elements, what about the others? How do you sort those out? Which have a limit, which don't? By what criteria? It's a pandora's box and it's completely unnecessary.

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1) about D/R : it's not because their announcement happened way before others, and therefore was discussed "elsewhere" as opposed to specifically on this thread, that it's not valid. I am not saying you personally said it was bad for them to reuse... what I am saying is that I dislike double-standards. I agree that athletes should pick what they feel most likely will gain them the most points... but i find it very "interesting" when I see people complaining about some skaters and turning a blind eye on others... i have said it many times, and if people still can't hear it, well, too bad.

2) about the elements LOL.. come on. it's the nature of figure skating. I am not one who is about to restrict the number of spread eagles or ina bauer a skater can do... to start, there are only a few jumps that we ought to see in every single programs so yes... it's not like suddenly someone will come up with a completely new set of jumps and steps and spins...

I am talking about innovation here. So sure, if a skater repeats a program, well, the chances that such specific moves are included are high... but I will give you a positive example of how a cool movement can be made cooler : omission of that cool movement.

Here is the entrance of a death spiral in 2016 by I/M which we all loved.... (sorry there is no sound here)

Here is the entrance of the death spiral in 2017... no more cantilever but a spiral which tracy wilson calls " musically superb" and despite the garbage music i have to agree that of course, that entrance is better than the cantilever... so kudos to them for not using the same trick as the year before... and same in their short in 2017... they didn't use the cantilever, which would have been off as they were doing this tango piece.

I wish more skaters would let go of their tricks and focused on the music itself.... YMMV

blueberryhill said:

I disagree, it started with Brian Joubert.

2002-2004 - Time
2005-2007 - Die Another Day
2008-2010 - Rise
2011-2013 - Genesis/Aerodynamic

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I think of The Matrix when I think of Joubert.

Eclair said:

Well, all skater's programs are listed on the ISU's website. We could say, that since the top 5 usually participates in the GP, at their first grand prix event the programs are checked and compared to what they skated last season.

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So the referee could look up what they listed last year and this year and see whether they're the same, apply a deduction before the skater ever takes the ice if they are.

However, sometimes the information submitted to the ISU website is incorrect. The skater might have updated it later. That might mean that this year's music is listed as last year's on the website even though the skater has changed music since they last updated the site. Or it's listed as something new when in fact the skater changed their mind since submitting to the site and went back to an old program.

Also sometimes the short and long programs are listed in the wrong spots.

And sometimes the skater might list partial information about the music one year and then add more/better information about the same music the next year.

Or list the same source of the music for both years, but in fact they're using completely different songs from the same musical or movie soundtrack etc. this year than they used last year.

If the music isn't familiar or if the way it's listed on the ISU website is different from the title by which this judge recognizes that music, they still may not be sure.

The skater may list a movie soundtrack when they're using a specific song or other piece of music that existed under its own name long before the movie was made. Or list the title of an aria when the judge only knows the name of the opera it comes from, or vice versa. Etc.

And remember, not all skaters speak English at all. Not all judges who do recognize a piece of music know it by the same title as the skater does.

So just relying on what's listed online will often be inaccurate. And unless last year's program was especially memorable or familiar, we can't count on the referee (or whoever) to hear this year's music once the skater actually performs it and realize "Hey, that's not what was listed on the website!"

Since the judges would deduct the PCS points, they should check it.

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When? They don't hear what the skater is skating to this year until the program starts. They put their component scores into the computer immediately after the program ends while the tech panel is reviewing elements, or some judges might even put them in while the program is still in progress. Within minutes, the scores are finalized.

And we certainly don't want the judges to have access to the Internet on the judges' stand while they're judging. That would open up so many cans of worms unrelated to music repeats.

Should judges each attend the practices where the skaters' music is played (regardless of whether the skater actually performs the program at the time) and make mental notes about what the music is this year, and then go back to the hotel and look up last year's programs?
They're not allowed to bring written notes about the skaters to the judges' stand. So they would have to rely on memory.

Yatagarasu said:

That has nothing to do with repeating programs. It can be a brand new program, and still have a choreographic element that does not fit the music. In both cases, old or new program, the judges already have an option of marking down the appropriate component. As for an actual repeat of the element, who is going to say how many times is too much? You can only use an IB five times in your career? Two? Three? Four for hydroblade? Six for something else? If you restrict those elements, what about the others? How do you sort those out? Which have a limit, which don't? By what criteria? It's a pandora's box and it's completely unnecessary.

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Some skaters have signature elements that fans expect to see from them, with variations if possible, in every program. Especially casual fans who only watch once a year or once every 4 years and remember specific skaters as "the guy with the [insert move here]"

"Variety" is one of the criteria for the Transitions component. So if a skater keeps using the same transitional move many times in the same program at the expense of not using other kinds of moves, they'll suffer for the overuse there, and possibly under Composition as well. (Or be rewarded under Composition if repeating different variations on spirals or spread eagles or split jumps throughout the program helps tie it together thematically.)

Similarly, if the moves enhance the music and the choreography they can be rewarded under Composition, under Interpretation, under element GOEs. If the moves have nothing to do with the music, they won't get those rewards and might suffer in the CO and IN scores accordingly.

There's certainly no way for judges to keep track whether any of the highlight moves the skater performs tonight is an exact repeat from last night's SP or last year's program unless it was especially memorable (for good or for bad reasons), and the judge actually watched the previous performance(s).

andromache said:

She does! It just depends on the individual relationship. I think there was a bit of bad blood between Phillip Mills and Ashley Wagner at one point, so I think that's at least contributed to why she hasn't gone back to a Phillip Mills programs since 2013-2014.

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No, Mariah's programs this year are choreographed by someone else. Last year's programs were choreographed by Rohene, and Mariah had been training them for several months before she switched coaches, to Rafael. It was great to see Raf and Rohene in her K&C together!

In Ashley's recent "Ask Me Anything" (Reddit), she said, in answer to 'why not do Black Swan again,' that the program wouldn't even work for the current competitive requirements. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/6smpdt/want_to_get_inside_the_mind_of_an_elite_olympic/

She didn't say which requirements, but two things leap out at me: 1. Her jump layout has changed significantly; she's doing 3Loop-1Lo-3Sal now, and 3F-3T. You can't just paste different jumps in, without changing the transitions, tempo, and re-cutting the music probably;

2. She did a long, very effective spiral sequence. The ladies don't do those long sequences any more, spirals are very short compared to what they were in 2012, because weren't spirals even a required element back then?

But I totally agree with what you said earlier about going back to work with the choreographer to add transitions, tweak moves, etc. To keep the resonance and spirit of the original, I'd think it would be important to do so.

Violet Bliss said:

I think of The Matrix when I think of Joubert.

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I got the info from Wikipedia and in my haste I was just looking at the short programs.
Oh wow, when you include the LPs - how many times did he use The Matrix???

And everyone knew at the time that the reason why Joubert had so many repeats was because he had a very difficult time finding vehicles that were right for him that he could sell well with his limited range. Even the ones that he did well, lost it's effect after every subsequent use. He skated in the wrong period because now people would celebrate him for being smart for repeating so much.

4everchan said:

Brian skated in the perfect period for him... come COP, he couldn't keep up.

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He did skate under COP; 10 out of 13 seasons as a senior under IJS.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

He did skate under COP!

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I know. I did remove my post because I forgot he did well from 2004-2006... after that though, he was losing a lot of points on steps and spins. His style, was much more suited for 6.0

4everchan said:

I know. I did remove my post because I forgot he did well from 2004-2006... after that though, he was losing a lot of points on steps and spins.

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True that.

skylark said:

In Ashley's recent "Ask Me Anything" (Reddit), she said, in answer to 'why not do Black Swan again,' that the program wouldn't even work for the current competitive requirements. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/6smpdt/want_to_get_inside_the_mind_of_an_elite_olympic/

She didn't say which requirements, but two things leap out at me: 1. Her jump layout has changed significantly; she's doing 3Loop-1Lo-3Sal now, and 3F-3T. You can't just paste different jumps in, without changing the transitions, tempo, and re-cutting the music probably;

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Very true.
Which underscores that just keeping the same music does not necessarily mean keeping the same choreography. Learning a brand new program to the exact same music can be more challenging than keeping pretty much the same choreography to new music.

2. She did a long, very effective spiral sequence. The ladies don't do those long sequences any more, spirals are very short compared to what they were in 2012, because weren't spirals even a required element back then?

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Spiral sequence was a required element until 2010. Since then, the free skate has required a Choreographic sequence.

In 2012, IIRC, it was required that the choreo sequence in the ladies' FS include at least one spiral and the choreo sequence needed to be placed later in the program than the step sequence. Those requirements are no longer true.

So a program from 2017 might violate the 2012 rules. A program from 2012 wouldn't violate 2017-18 rules, but it also might not maximize the skater's point earning potential under the current rules. (Not to mention their current skill set.)

skylark said:

In Ashley's recent "Ask Me Anything" (Reddit), she said, in answer to 'why not do Black Swan again,' that the program wouldn't even work for the current competitive requirements. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/6smpdt/want_to_get_inside_the_mind_of_an_elite_olympic/

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Black Swan wouldn't be hard to bring back. The spiral sequence in that program exactly serves as the "choreography sequence" element these days and there's no reason the footwork sequence couldn't be changed for the new rules. The jump elements are fine too, she would just change the solo 3Loop and 3Sal in that program to her current 3Loop+3Sal combo and then a Double Axel.

She most likely just doesn't want to repeat something from her old choreographer. Either that or she is truly not smart at all about understanding structure and choreography.

Violet Bliss said:

I think of The Matrix when I think of Joubert.

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I think of this when I think of Joubert.

gravy said:

I think of this when I think of Joubert.

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Holy Cow!!!! I always thought he looked good in his costumes but, I never knew he had a body like that under it!

blueberryhill said:

Oh wow, when you include the LPs - how many times did he use The Matrix???

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The limit does not exist.

gkelly said:

.

So a program from 2017 might violate the 2012 rules. A program from 2012 wouldn't violate 2017-18 rules, but it also might not maximize the skater's point earning potential under the current rules. (Not to mention their current skill set.)

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Yes, exactly. You said it much better than I did. And let me clarify, all that (hmmm) about jumps and spirals was just me speculating. Ashley didn't say anything about jumps or spirals or any other particular elements.

gravy said:

I think of this when I think of Joubert.

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I'll be in my bunk.

Blades of Passion said:

Black Swan wouldn't be hard to bring back. The spiral sequence in that program exactly serves as the "choreography sequence" element these days and there's no reason the footwork sequence couldn't be changed for the new rules. The jump elements are fine too, she would just change the solo 3Loop and 3Sal in that program to her current 3Loop+3Sal combo and then a Double Axel.

She most likely just doesn't want to repeat something from her old choreographer. Either that or she is truly not smart at all about understanding structure and choreography.

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Let me again clarify that Ashley said nothing at all about changing jumps or spirals. That was only me speculating.

But I do think that if she ever did consider re-using that program ... which again, I re-iterate, she didn't ... it would be desirable and also more respectful to the original choreographer to return to him so that they could re-work it together. And that wouldn't happen. She speaks respectfully of Phillip Mills, but as andromache said, that was a strained relationship at the end. To Ashley's regret, as she said in her 2013 TSL interview.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D39dmCQ2ciY
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdFwnh-JB5o

gravy said:

I think of this when I think of Joubert.

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:luv17: