Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

champs · Aug 29, 2017

I'm too lazy to follow the ongoing discussion but if Ashley ever revive a past program of hers I wish it'd be Somewhere in Time, still my fave program of hers.

I'm neutral on skaters reusing the same music with revised choreography, it may turn out that the new version gets well received by judges and majority of fans alike but some may prefer the old version. Like I prefer Mao's Chopin SP from 2006-07 far more than from 2013-14. But nothing against her/their decision to reuse it.

desertskates · Aug 29, 2017

Here's a re-do from Ashley I'd be very interested to see: the scrapped Romeo and Juliet program from '13-'14. I know this will never happen for a ton of reasons, but I did really like the program and think that with the maturity and performance ability Ashley developed over the last quad, it would be brilliant.

qwerty · Aug 29, 2017

desertskates said:
Here's a re-do from Ashley I'd be very interested to see: the scrapped Romeo and Juliet program from '13-'14. I know this will never happen for a ton of reasons, but I did really like the program and think that with the maturity and performance ability Ashley developed over the last quad, it would be brilliant.

I'd love to see that too, although perhaps with more effective music edits.

evangeline · Aug 29, 2017

andromache said:
I do think that in front of a figure skating audience - an audience who follows figure skating, so not necessarily an Olympic audience - that it's possible an audience will be less excited if they've seen something several times before. Seeing Yuzu go clean on a program for the first time is a huge thrill, as is seeing Ashley commit 100% to her character and perform to the rafters. But for some fans, the more we see it, the less exciting it is. The responses of audience members in the building matters. They influence scores, though sure, other posters will selectively quote me and mock my saying that fan or audience opinions matter.

From my experience, live audiences generally applaud and enjoy any clean/great performance by any skater, no matter if it's the first or the sixth time they've seen the program clean. Just look at Evgenia Medvedeva and how many times she's gone clean this season--was the audience reaction in the arena after Evgenia's clean performances at Worlds or WTT somehow less enthusiastic than her clean performances earlier in the season? No. I watched Worlds in person last season in Helsinki and can personally attest to the fact that Evgenia received a very loud, enthusiastic standing ovation for her LP even though Evgenia had skated the same program cleanly for the fourth or fifth time that season.

Barb · Aug 30, 2017

gkelly said:
So the referee could look up what they listed last year and this year and see whether they're the same, apply a deduction before the skater ever takes the ice if they are.

However, sometimes the information submitted to the ISU website is incorrect. The skater might have updated it later. That might mean that this year's music is listed as last year's on the website even though the skater has changed music since they last updated the site. Or it's listed as something new when in fact the skater changed their mind since submitting to the site and went back to an old program.

Also sometimes the short and long programs are listed in the wrong spots.

And sometimes the skater might list partial information about the music one year and then add more/better information about the same music the next year.

Or list the same source of the music for both years, but in fact they're using completely different songs from the same musical or movie soundtrack etc. this year than they used last year.

If the music isn't familiar or if the way it's listed on the ISU website is different from the title by which this judge recognizes that music, they still may not be sure.

We are in the 21th century, internet, maybe they could to create a more formal and public datebase, to where the skaters had to personally upload their music/program information, mandatorily. Then in the competition, each skater should inform if they are using a repeated program, I mean, In the same sheet or monitor with the data of the skater for the judges, that they already would have that information. Then at the end of the competition, the judges randomly would chose some skaters to corroborate if the information provided by the skater agrees with the database, If it turns out that the skater is lying, he or she would be severely penalized and also, since the database is public, I do not think that the skaters will risk being exposed as liars because anyone who wants to corroborate the information would have it at hand.

Briony · Aug 30, 2017

The more intense the competition, the more heated this debate is. Does the rule prescribe penalties for repeating programs? This is a blind point of rule.
In addition, competitors have rights to compete when they are protected by media and external environments. This is because figure skating requires a paradox in terms of art and sports. Some Athletes sometimes suffer from various conditions outside of the competition and there is no protection against media coverage. Media attention to them sometimes goes over. Their mentality are not infinite. They want to protect themselves and compete. they follow the rules to show their strengths. Only then can it be a show.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 30, 2017

blueberryhill said:
I got the info from Wikipedia and in my haste I was just looking at the short programs.
Oh wow, when you include the LPs - how many times did he use The Matrix???

He did the Matrix Clubbed to Death (rather appropriate title, lol), 3 times.

And he did Matrix Reloaded (different music, but still part of the Matrix trilogy) 1 time.

Over a 13-year senior career, mind you.

Violet Bliss · Aug 30, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
He did the Matrix Clubbed to Death (rather appropriate title, lol), 3 times.

And he did Matrix Reloaded (different music, but still part of the Matrix trilogy) 1 time.

That's an appropriate title too.

Over a 13-year senior career, mind you.

A long reloaded career with Matrix overload.

eta: However, did he ever do both repeated SP and LP in a season?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 30, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
That's an appropriate title too.

A long reloaded career with Matrix overload.

The Matrix Repeated, or The Matrix Overloaded?

Well, at least Joubert (and Chan) waited at least 5 years before deciding to three-repeat a past program.

Violet Bliss · Aug 30, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The Matrix Repeated, or The Matrix Overloaded?

Well, at least Joubert (and Chan) waited at least 5 years before deciding to three-repeat a past program.

Patrick didn't 3-peat a past program. Did Joubert did his last Matrix Clubbed To Death 5 years after the first two? Matrix Reloaded was not a 3-peat. It was either a new program or a 4-peat. I think it was new but it's hard to disassociate it from the Matrix CTD program both because of the music and of the style of the program and his skating.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 30, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
Patrick didn't 3-peat a past program. Did Joubert did his last Matrix Clubbed To Death 5 years after the first two? Matrix Reloaded was not a 3-peat. It was either a new program or a 4-peat. I think it was new but it's hard to disassociate it from the Matrix CTD program both because of the music and of the style of the program and his skating.

I would say Matrix Reloaded was new - it was actually a medley with Last of the Mohicans and Requiem for a Dream (so not entirely a Matrix program). Obviously, the style of skating wasn't different from Joubert's previous programs.

Yes, I should clarify, Chan 3-peated past music, but the program when he brought back Four Seasons was (as mentioned) different cuts, choreo, pretty much a whole revamp, instead of a throwback/repeat. His was an example of repeated/brought-back programs done right -- putting a whole new spin on it, which reflects his evolution since when he first performed it.

Unfortunately for Joubert, his interpretation was pretty much the same, and under IJS as mentioned his spins/footwork suffered and judges started docking him for not having the best interpretation. He was more of a 6.0 skater who flourished under being able to do great elements even if he wasn't particularly elegant or his programs particularly complex compared to some of the top IJS guys.

Blades of Passion · Aug 30, 2017

Jeff Buttle was actually the the first person since Petrenko to repeat SP+LP in the same season (and in the case of the LP, he even watered it down from what it had been the previous season). He did that in 2008 to win Worlds.

OS · Aug 30, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
Jeff Buttle was actually the the first person since Petrenko to repeat SP+LP in the same season (and in the case of the LP, he even watered it down from what it had been the previous season). He did that in 2008 to win Worlds.

Just curious, did that affect his artistic mark at all?

I am actually hoping Hanyu can keep his Seimei/Chopin another 4 years to focus on the quads (4A!?), just to see if finally ISU will consider revise its judging system lol...

Violet Bliss · Aug 30, 2017

OS said:
Just curious, did that affect his artistic mark at all?

I am actually hoping Hanyu can keep his Seimei/Chopin another 4 years to focus on the quads (4A!?), just to see if finally ISU will consider revise its judging system lol...

gkelly · Aug 30, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
Jeff Buttle was actually the the first person since Petrenko to repeat SP+LP in the same season

I highly doubt that. Possibly the first medal contender since Petrenko.

OS said:
Just curious, did that affect his artistic mark at all?

No way of knowing exactly what the judges were rewarding or penalizing. There was certainly nothing in the rules encouraging them to penalize repeated programs.

(There was and is a criterion for Originality in the Choreography, now Composition, component. But it's only one bullet point of several. And I understand it to refer to the concept and structure and specific choices in this program compared to other programs in the history of the sport, to the extent that each judge can put this program in a broader context -- not compared to the same skater's program last year.)

Blades of Passion · Aug 30, 2017

gkelly said:
I highly doubt that. Possibly the first medal contender since Petrenko

Yes gkelly, that is implied. Nobody cares about random Novice, Junior, or bottom tier Senior skaters when talking about these things.

gkelly · Aug 30, 2017

Speak for yourself, please.

Out of curiosity, I've done some research, and here are some examples I've turned up of skaters repeating two programs in the same season.

Surya Bonaly
1994 SP
1995 SP
original 1993-94 FS
She ditched it to go back to the previous year’s Four Seasons program later in the season, but then brought it back the next year:
1994-95 FS

Kazakova/Dmitriev
1997 SP
1998 SP
1997 FS
1998 FS
Same two programs, two years in a row

Elvis Stojko
1998 SP
2002 SP
1994 FS
2002 FS

Totmianina/Marinin
2000 FS
2004 SP
2002-03 FS
2003-04 Grand Prix FS

Elena Sokolova (program list)
2006 SP
2007 SP
2006 FS
2007 FS

All world medalists, though not necessarily in the frame at the time of these repeats.

Not always the exact same cuts or choreography, but then, we don’t know yet whether any of the 2018 repeats will be either.

And some programs weren’t used for whole seasons (the first year and/or the second year) . . . again, we don’t know yet whether any of the 2018 repeats will be either.

Li'Kitsu · Aug 31, 2017

OS said:
Just curious, did that affect his artistic mark at all?

I am actually hoping Hanyu can keep his Seimei/Chopin another 4 years to focus on the quads (4A!?), just to see if finally ISU will consider revise its judging system lol...

The ISU already stated they will revise the judging system - and it's is actually already Hanyus fault. Try to push some system breaking onto someone else, okay?

Also, I'd guess it was stated in this thread already, but focusing on the jumps is likely not the only reason Yuzu decided to go back to old programs. His LP last season (Hope&Legacy) wasn't well received, to the point where he and his team thought about ditching it for Worlds. They probably don't want to risk having another program with bad reception in the Oly season. Of course everyone takes the risk of a program not being received well every time they go for a new one, but the deciding factor here is that it's Oly season. That one season people care about FS and were the skaters go for the biggest most important price of them all - the OGM (honestly, I wished the OGM wasn't rated so highly compared to WC & all that, but what can we do). Buttom line: no, I doubt we'll see him keeping his programs even further than this season. Even if he goes for the 4A.

And even more than that: even if he kept his programs until he retires, I doubt it would make the ISU change their rules. And it shouldn't.

Altie · Aug 31, 2017

Li'Kitsu said:
The ISU already stated they will revise the judging system - and it's is actually already Hanyus fault. Try to push some system breaking onto someone else, okay?

Also, I'd guess it was stated in this thread already, but focusing on the jumps is likely not the only reason Yuzu decided to go back to old programs. His LP last season (Hope&Legacy) wasn't well received, to the point where he and his team thought about ditching it for Worlds. They probably don't want to risk having another program with bad reception in the Oly season. Of course everyone takes the risk of a program not being received well every time they go for a new one, but the deciding factor here is that it's Oly season. That one season people care about FS and were the skaters go for the biggest most important price of them all - the OGM (honestly, I wished the OGM wasn't rated so highly compared to WC & all that, but what can we do). Buttom line: no, I doubt we'll see him keeping his programs even further than this season. Even if he goes for the 4A.

And even more than that: even if he kept his programs until he retires, I doubt it would make the ISU change their rules. And it shouldn't.

In this interview, Hanyu explains why he brought back Ballade, over Let's go Crazy, which was his first intention.

skylark · Aug 31, 2017

gkelly said:
Out of curiosity, I've done some research, and here are some examples I've turned up of skaters repeating two programs in the same season.

Not always the exact same cuts or choreography, but then, we don’t know yet whether any of the 2018 repeats will be either.

And even the same or almost the same choreography can be developed and tweaked to create something different, something deeper, or alternatively a lighter touch, etc. It can all be interesting and, most importantly, effective.

Li'Kitsu said:
His LP last season (Hope&Legacy) wasn't well received ..... They probably don't want to risk having another program with bad reception in the Oly season. Of course everyone takes the risk of a program not being received well every time they go for a new one, but the deciding factor here is that it's Oly season.

All of this is also true of Ashley Wagner, with both her last season's Sweet Dreams SP and her Muse FS.

I should add that we still don't know if Ashley is going back to MR; it hasn't been confirmed or announced. In fact, it's quite possible that she and her team are taking a longer time and going through the process of working it through before taking a decision.

Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

champs

desertskates

qwerty

evangeline

Barb

Briony

CanadianSkaterGuy

Violet Bliss

CanadianSkaterGuy

Violet Bliss

CanadianSkaterGuy

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

OS

Sedated by Modonium

Violet Bliss

gkelly

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

gkelly

Li'Kitsu

Altie

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

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