Cut down on long program jumping passes

LeReveur · Jun 16, 2017

Though I will be on holiday soon and likely not checking into this thread often if it goes anywhere, I wanted to post an idea:

Cut down the number of required elements. More specifically/worded a different way, limit the number of jumping passes in the long program for singles skaters. Yes, one can argue the IJS was invented to up objectivity, and perhaps one way of thinking is that the more that is judged, the more quantifiable things become, but skating is not a 100m sprint. There's subjectivity anyway and numbers don't tell the whole story, so why not appease people like me who miss creativity and more emphasis on skating. I like jumping, but there's too much. I like footwork, but not lots and lots of footwork that is prescribed to be so long. As for spins, I don't have strong feelings on more/fewer spins.

For years, skating has gone in the direction of being too frenetic and "adding up points"-based (my opinion, of course). I really do think it's now at an extreme where I enjoy far fewer programs than I did in the past, especially without a broad pro scene.

Another thought that comes to mind is: why have so many jumping passes in the long program in the first place? There are six different jumps and yet men have eight jumping passes (ladies seven). Why would I want to see jumps repeated? I'd rather see interesting choreography. Also, with so many jumping passes, programs get cluttered and mistakes become less meaningful in final placements. For example, if men had six jumping passes and a man fell on two jumps, he would be penalized more than falling twice during eight jumping passes. I would rather see quality than quantity. It's not about expecting clean programs but cleanER programs. You missed your quad salchow? Well, that's too bad for you. Show me your next attempt next outing, not in this program.

Sure, lots of people can throw out reasons against this, including people who actually care about world records and personal bests; I'm sure they would say, "But then no one could ever reach that record." Still, I thought it would be interesting to let me fingertips do some thinking-to-forum work and put these ideas out there.

TheCzar · Jun 16, 2017

You can't do that because that is literally the basis of the sport (minus the fact that they don't do figures anymore). FS is a sport that is based on the points achieved from spins, footwork, choreography and jumps. Otherwise cutting down the jumps with single skaters- they may as well call it quits and do ice dance. The whole point of single skating is to push their scores by landing as many jumps and combinations as possible and at the highest difficulty. Plus that's part of the thrill of this sport. Why would you take that away from the athlete? Furthermore- I honestly would find a 4-minute routine with no jumps bloody boring, especially with this crop of millenial single skaters.

It's like telling NBA players that they are only allowed to attempt a couple of 3-pointers at each game because it sucks whenever the shot misses.

What they need to do to level out the field IMO is to make at least 3 jumping passes mandatory in the first half of the program, one being a combination. That way there's no risk of a program being unbalanced due to skaters maxing out points by putting all of their jumps in the second half.

andromache · Jun 16, 2017

Won't there be one less jumping pass in men's LPs after this upcoming season?

karne · Jun 16, 2017

andromache said:
Won't there be one less jumping pass in men's LPs after this upcoming season?

Yes, but I think that also comes with 30sec less skating too, right?

mrrice · Jun 16, 2017

karne said:
Yes, but I think that also comes with 30sec less skating too, right?

Have I been on Mars....... Are the shortening the LP time limit down to 4:00? Is this just an idea? What will happen to bonus and back loading of programs?

Krunchii · Jun 16, 2017

Yeah they are cutting down the men's program by 30 seconds and taking away a jumping pass.

Personally I really dislike this proposal, for men, it's like what, a 3S or 2A? They don't take long to set those up at all, certainly not 30 seconds, I think their programs will become more cramped and more rushed. Especially as men push for more quads, which take longer to set up.

asp11 · Jun 16, 2017

mrrice said:
Have I been on Mars....... Are the shortening the LP time limit down to 4:00?

That's my impression, too. I could be wrong, though.

Seren · Jun 16, 2017

I get what you are trying to say- but decreasing the allowed difficulty in skating will not help the sport. At all.

That said, I think there is an argument to continue to refine the distribution of points. But jumping is still a huge part of what makes skating a sport.

gmyers · Jun 16, 2017

Only if there's one less spin and maybe 2 less spins and no more choreo things

el henry · Jun 16, 2017

I agree with the proposal.

Jumps does *not* equal "difficulty". Reducing jumps is not reducing the "difficulty" of the sport. It does not make it "unfair" to those who want to jump, it makes them (perhaps) develop other skills. IMHO, the athleticism and skill needed for spins, steps and choreo are far more impressive than speeding down the ice and flinging yourself in the air for an extra revolution in a jump.

But every time something like this is proposed, it's a sport, it's a contest, how dare you interfere with/reduce/impede the "progress" of the sport, progress I tell you, and only the strong survive (let's cue some Jerry Butler, why don't we) ya dee ya dee ya dee. Yawn :bed:

Those arguments won't convince me and my arguments won't convince those who feel otherwise. I can only hope somewhere down the line someone "in charge" gets convinced that jumps are not the end-all and be-all of figure skating. My hopes are not high.

GF2445 · Jun 16, 2017

I had a thought, in the long program, instead of limiting the amount of jumping passes (7 in women and 8 in men), limit the amount of rotations in the air a skater can do in a program- so a skater can do any number of jumps, any kind of jumps (as long it does not break zayak rules) they want. It might make free programs 'freer'

Just for reference, at this years world's
Yuzuru, Boyang and shoma rotated 38 times in the air in the free program
Nathan 39.5 times etc....

Of course there are faults in this idea, but its fruit for thought about to remove the constraints that are currently placed on the long program.
Thoughts?

TontoK · Jun 17, 2017

Well, as long as we're all agreeing to get rid of things we don't like... let me get my list in.

No more Biellmann spins.
No more A-spins (butt spins)
No more than one Tano or Rippon jump per program.
No more ladies skating in pants.
No more men skating in sequins or feathers.
No more of those ridiculous tights that stretch over the boot.
No more fan spirals if your name is not Sasha Cohen.

LeReveur · Jun 17, 2017

TheCzar said:
You can't do that because that is literally the basis of the sport (minus the fact that they don't do figures anymore). FS is a sport that is based on the points achieved from spins, footwork, choreography and jumps.

This highlights one of my main points. Even with the IJS points game for jumps (and other elements, I know, but don't jumps garner the most points/make up the bulk of TES points?), the current system still has performance, composition, and interpretation of the music as being judged... but I really feel they're quite neglected by many.

I guess another point is that skating seems to struggle with its identity, for judges, skaters, and fans alike. The way judged "things" are weighted does currently allow for TES to usurp the second mark total, but it seems some people want the max for TES/components to be equal, some people want components to count for less, and some may have other ideas altogether. The fact is that skaters skate to music, so I find it dishonest to pretend like jumping is the main thing they do.

I was not aware of a change to the length/jumping passes for men's LPs. When was that made clear?

Interesting comments from everyone.

el henry · Jun 17, 2017

TontoK said:
Well, as long as we're all agreeing to get rid of things we don't like... let me get my list in.

No more Biellmann spins.
No more A-spins (butt spins)
No more than one Tano or Rippon jump per program.
No more ladies skating in pants.
No more men skating in sequins or feathers.
No more of those ridiculous tights that stretch over the boot.
No more fan spirals if your name is not Sasha Cohen.

And we agree

Butt spins and Bielmanns :disapp::disapp::disapp:

Except I'm never advocating *get rid of* jumps, or that folks shouldn't get a thrill from thosehigh, wide, awe-inspiring extra revolutions (I'm not being snarky, the description is meant to be sincere) just that it's not "better". Whatever that is.

And no more man spirals unless your name is Jason Brown. In which case you get +10 GOE :biggrin:

Seren · Jun 17, 2017

el henry said:
I agree with the proposal.

Jumps does *not* equal "difficulty". Reducing jumps is not reducing the "difficulty" of the sport. It does not make it "unfair" to those who want to jump, it makes them (perhaps) develop other skills. IMHO, the athleticism and skill needed for spins, steps and choreo are far more impressive than speeding down the ice and flinging yourself in the air for an extra revolution in a jump.

But every time something like this is proposed, it's a sport, it's a contest, how dare you interfere with/reduce/impede the "progress" of the sport, progress I tell you, and only the strong survive (let's cue some Jerry Butler, why don't we) ya dee ya dee ya dee. Yawn

Those arguments won't convince me and my arguments won't convince those who feel otherwise. I can only hope somewhere down the line someone "in charge" gets convinced that jumps are not the end-all and be-all of figure skating. My hopes are not high.

I agree with you in many ways but while jumps don't equal difficulty, they are a large part of what makes skating difficult. I am an adult skater and have been skating since I was a child and I think that back outside brackets are just as difficult as the axel.

Skating needs to find a balance, it has lost that balance over the last few years. But simply removing jump passes isn't going to fix it. I don't know what the answer is.

DexterK · Jun 17, 2017

Haha, and over here I am wishing that spirals and Biellmanns are required so that the most beautiful positions get rewarded and those without get penalized...maybe then Yuzuru, among many many others, would make his Biellmann easier on the eyes. I'll take a layback if it is like Adam's.

I can't help it, I've got impossibly high expectations for everyone and their flexibility.

Miller · Jun 17, 2017

For the women cutting down the number of jumping passes by one might not be a bad idea. If you were to do your full complement of 7 triples (for non-3A skaters) and 2 double axels in 6 jumping passes you'd need to do 3 triple-triples (or 2A-triples), whereas at the moment all the top ladies only have to do 2. It could really act as a separator in terms of athleticism/ability.

At the moment if you were to do 3 triple-triples you get no benefit as your spare jumping pass could only be a 2Lz (assuming you're not going to try for a 3A). However this is only worth 2.1 points compared with the 1.3 say of a 2T it would be replacing. Also the points per GOE are only 0.3 compared with 0.7 of the pass it would be replacing, basically there would be no advantage whatsoever, a flaw in the judging system I would suggest.

However one less jumping pass and the time saved for say a longer choreo sequence/more time for the program to 'breathe' wouldn't be a bad thing, IMO.

jimini · Jun 17, 2017

I don't mind 7-pass programs for the ladies, but 6 could be doable without cutting out difficulty. It would mostly just cut out the unnecessary second 2As most women do.

Example: Tara Lipinski's Olympic season program had only 6 passes including 3 combos, 7 triples, and only one 2A.

Barb · Jun 17, 2017

LeReveur said:
Though I will be on holiday soon and likely not checking into this thread often if it goes anywhere, I wanted to post an idea:

Cut down the number of required elements. More specifically/worded a different way, limit the number of jumping passes in the long program for singles skaters. Yes, one can argue the IJS was invented to up objectivity, and perhaps one way of thinking is that the more that is judged, the more quantifiable things become, but skating is not a 100m sprint. There's subjectivity anyway and numbers don't tell the whole story, so why not appease people like me who miss creativity and more emphasis on skating. I like jumping, but there's too much. I like footwork, but not lots and lots of footwork that is prescribed to be so long. As for spins, I don't have strong feelings on more/fewer spins.

For years, skating has gone in the direction of being too frenetic and "adding up points"-based (my opinion, of course). I really do think it's now at an extreme where I enjoy far fewer programs than I did in the past, especially without a broad pro scene.

Another thought that comes to mind is: why have so many jumping passes in the long program in the first place? There are six different jumps and yet men have eight jumping passes (ladies seven). Why would I want to see jumps repeated? I'd rather see interesting choreography. Also, with so many jumping passes, programs get cluttered and mistakes become less meaningful in final placements. For example, if men had six jumping passes and a man fell on two jumps, he would be penalized more than falling twice during eight jumping passes. I would rather see quality than quantity. It's not about expecting clean programs but cleanER programs. You missed your quad salchow? Well, that's too bad for you. Show me your next attempt next outing, not in this program.

Sure, lots of people can throw out reasons against this, including people who actually care about world records and personal bests; I'm sure they would say, "But then no one could ever reach that record." Still, I thought it would be interesting to let me fingertips do some thinking-to-forum work and put these ideas out there.

Just go to watch ice dance, no jumps and only 1 spin.

berry8 · Jun 17, 2017

I am glad that the duration of the LP will be reduced...
My relatives think that LPs are a bit too long

It is unfair that ISU will cut a throw jump in pairs though...
I mean... why do the side by side spin, the combo spin and the death spiral have to be compulsory in the LP??

Cut down on long program jumping passes

LeReveur

TheCzar

andromache

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

mrrice

Krunchii

asp11

Just a dedicated fan - not a skater

Seren

Wakabond Forever

gmyers

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

GF2445

TontoK

Hot Tonto

LeReveur

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Seren

Wakabond Forever

DexterK

Miller

jimini

Barb

berry8

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