Cut down on long program jumping passes

berry8 said:

It is unfair that ISU will cut a throw jump in pairs though...
I mean... why do the side by side spin, the combo spin and the death spiral have to be compulsory in the LP??

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Because there's only one of each, whereas there are already two throws, so cutting one would not eliminate that skill entirely?

Of course, they're not really required -- the only penalty for leaving one out is that you get no points for that slot. But there isn't the option to replace them with something else.

What if the senior pair freeskate requirements were something like
11 elements total
1 each of the following is expected:
*Lift
*Twist lift
*Throw jump
*Side-by-side jump element (solo or sequence/combo)
*Side-by-side spin
*Pair spin
*Death spiral
*Sequence (step sequence or choreographic sequence)

Then there would be three wild-card elements, in which the team could repeat any of the above categories of elements as long as two elements from the category didn't have the same code. It would be allowed to choose two extra lifts for a total of three. But if there are two or more lifts in the program, at least one has to be from groups 1-4 (seniors will never choose groups 1 or 2).

I've always wanted to see something similar for singles as well. Maybe require a minimum of five jump passes, maximum of 7 or 8, and allow additional spins or sequences or other kinds of elements (school figure variation?) for those who choose fewer jumping passes.

The skaters who do fewer passes would likely either
*Be strong jumpers who can combine their most difficult jumps in several different 3-3 (or 4-3) combinations so that they don't need as many passes to max out their difficult jump content
or
*Be weaker jumpers who don't have a full complement of triples to begin with, so their own difficult jump content can be maxed out in fewer passes.

A level 4 non-jump element is going to be worth more in base value than a double lutz, and maybe some of them should be worth more than double axels. Certainly skaters who excel at spinning more than jumps, for example, might benefit in terms of GOE from including another level 4 spin instead of another double axel.

If there were to be a lower limit on the total number of jump elements allowed, it might be advisable to amend the Zayak rule to allow only one repeat (which would encourage the strong jumpers to develop different kinds of combinations aside from 3T as the second jump) and/or to give bonuses based on the difficulty of the second/third jump in a combo (ditto), and/or to give a bonus for using all 6 different jump takeoffs (which would discourage filling the fewer jump passes with nothing but axels, toe loops, and salchows; or nothing but toe loops, flips, and lutzes with one token double axel).

Miller said:

For the women cutting down the number of jumping passes by one might not be a bad idea. If you were to do your full complement of 7 triples (for non-3A skaters) and 2 double axels in 6 jumping passes you'd need to do 3 triple-triples (or 2A-triples), whereas at the moment all the top ladies only have to do 2. It could really act as a separator in terms of athleticism/ability.

At the moment if you were to do 3 triple-triples you get no benefit as your spare jumping pass could only be a 2Lz (assuming you're not going to try for a 3A). However this is only worth 2.1 points compared with the 1.3 say of a 2T it would be replacing. Also the points per GOE are only 0.3 compared with 0.7 of the pass it would be replacing, basically there would be no advantage whatsoever, a flaw in the judging system I would suggest.

However one less jumping pass and the time saved for say a longer choreo sequence/more time for the program to 'breathe' wouldn't be a bad thing, IMO.

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I was going to write something like this as well. It would actually encourage skaters to try more difficult combinations, because the reward gets bigger. For example, Evgenia Medvedeva could leave out the single 3Lo and include a 2A-3Lo-2T combination while keeping the other two Triple-Triple combinations. Or she could jump 3F-3Lo and a 3S-3T-3T combination. Also, the men often have to do a 'simple' 4-2T combinations because of the Zayak rule. Maybe it would encourage them to include a 3-3Lo combination and a 4-3T combination instead.

chapis said:

Just go to watch ice dance, no jumps and only 1 spin.

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This is an excellent response to the complaint that has been lodged. I am going to remember it and use it when circumstance arises.

In short, I'm going to steal it.

Of course, some ice dance teams might skate "too fast" so I'm not sure that would satisfy those who advocate for the athletic "dumbing down" of our sport in favor of artistic posing.

I'm not a fan of this proposal. Cutting down time by :30 doesn't equate to cutting out 1/8 jumping passes. Also, having more jumping passes challenges skaters and encourages them to learn a greater variety of jumps.

chapis said:

Just go to watch ice dance, no jumps and only 1 spin.

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Or exhibitions. :sarcasm:

Another option would be to but a Base Value Cap....

TontoK said:

Well, as long as we're all agreeing to get rid of things we don't like... let me get my list in.

No more Biellmann spins.
No more A-spins (butt spins)
No more than one Tano or Rippon jump per program.
No more ladies skating in pants.
No more men skating in sequins or feathers.
No more of those ridiculous tights that stretch over the boot.
No more fan spirals if your name is not Sasha Cohen.

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No more skating soon. People on GS are diehards. But skating has changed and not necessarily for the good depending on who you are. It is so hard to understand the judging system And arguably the more objective the scoring system tried to become the more complicated and more subjective. First, GOE's were to distinguish quality but they are prone to human frailities as they decide the levels of the GOE's. Second, the values and content of a program keep changing which also hurts the validty of skating as a sport. Where in running the time is the time.Now we have some elements taken out or added to programs as mandatory and jumps for example have changed value over the years and not even proportionality. ie. a loop has gained value compared to a flip. Likewise the toe loop and salchows have also increased. And odd spins or positions and sometimes superflous movements are valued to get more points now hence why ugly bielemans, dog peeing positions and awkwardspirals are added to programs. Add to the fact that scoring system does not really allow to differentiate great skating skills (PCS) because a quad can easily make that up and you have messed up scoring system which is only of interest to those who will take to the time to understand it and not the average watch the olympics only skating which people is the majority. The majority, meaning those not on these boards, has no idea the difference between a toe versus edge jump let alone why a lutz is valued so much more than a toe loop. We/I love skating. But being objective skating is a mess and then while skating may be pretty big in Japan in big marketing n ations like USA it is not so hot compared to the past. A solid female American has yet to emerge. Sure they have medal contenders - Wagner, Gold and Chen but non e stable enough to call no. 1. Men has always been in the back seat to ladies. They do have a charismatic Brown but one slip from him with his limited jumps he could be down in 15th or lower. Chen has a chance but has failed to show the personality of a Brown. Dance they are solid medal favourites but not great personalities for marketing and forget pairs where it is a gong show of changing partners and medicore skating with no real personality or charisma. So when you keep saying No more... it might be no more skating if we continue this "downward spiral" excuse the pun

May it be possible that someone post a link to the ISU communication about the new regulations for 2018/2019.

I would rather they eliminate one jumping pass in the men's long program and keep the 30 seconds. If we want programs to have better choreography and room to breathe, that extra time is necessary.

I also think that the layback spin should be turned into non-leveled spin, emphasizing the position of the layback, speed, centering, and arc in the back. Right now, the layback spin is just a Bielmann spin with added stuff.

Or maybe no more old boring people who still think Kwan was the best skater ever ranting nonstop.

I watch figure skating for spectacular moves. Jumps. Tano and rippon variations, the more the merrier. Quads. Acrobatic lifts. And so on.
If i want to watch artistry, you know, I just go and watch some ballet.

Come on, folks. If YOU don't like something, it doesn't mean everybody else doesn't like something.


Sorry folks, just keep getting annoyed by all the rants and complains over here. Just because your own favorites cannot do the top technical content, maybe that just means they should improve their technical skills, and not just * remove all jumps because too many jumps*, *remove all tanos because they cannot tano - the moment our faves can tano, we will love tano* and so on...

Personally I think that in general the men tend to do a better job than women with including interesting choreography between the elements. There are probably several reasons for this. And of course it's only a general trend: there are women have great choreography and men who do nothing but jump.

But to the extent this is true and is related to the relation between the number of elements and the program time...

What if both men's and women's programs were set at 4:15 +/- 10 seconds, with 7 jump elements maximum?

I would like to see the foot work sequence shortened and limited in time. If a skater only had say 20 seconds or whatever for that element they would really have to fly to cover the ice and do it well with speed. Good turns with flow! Flowing deep edges!

Which would make it a lot harder to earn level 4. Even if they redefine what's required for level 4. Which might be a good thing in that it would really separate those who can do difficult turns in both directions and several on one foot, with upper body movement, with ease from those who need to separate those skills and add setup time to accomplish the turns.

And then the Patrick Chans of the world would have more time for transitional moves outside the sequence.

trains said:

I would like to see the foot work sequence shortened and limited in time. If a skater only had say 20 seconds or whatever for that element they would really have to fly to cover the ice and do it well with speed. Good turns with flow! Flowing deep edges!

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I agree for the most part, but I think variations in speeds should still be allowed, so skaters can stop or slow down-speed up for dramatic effect. What I really hate is when the step sequence is choreographed so the skater "back tracks" and turns around back toward where they started to squeeze more steps in.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Or exhibitions. :sarcasm:

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The original poster is asking more skating, the exhibitions usually does not show much skating unless your name is Mao Asada.

trains said:

I would like to see the foot work sequence shortened and limited in time. If a skater only had say 20 seconds or whatever for that element they would really have to fly to cover the ice and do it well with speed. Good turns with flow! Flowing deep edges!

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I see what you are trying to accomplish with this idea but I'm afraid it would limit skaters more than anything. The step sequence is really important- this is FIGURE skating after all. I'm afraid this would just lead to sloppier footwork in an attempt to still get a level 4 and unfairly punish skaters who are really spectacular at footwork by limiting them.

Skater Boy said:

\
And odd spins or positions and sometimes superflous movements are valued to get more points now hence why ugly bielemans, dog peeing positions and awkwardspirals are added to programs. Add to the fact that scoring system does not really allow to differentiate great skating skills (PCS) because a quad can easily make that up and you have messed up scoring system which is only of interest to those who will take to the time to understand it and not the average watch the olympics only skating which people is the majority.

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Skater Boy's post trimmed for brevity.

I agree with you on the point of ugly positions earning additional credit. It's ridiculous.

I also agree with you on your sentiments regarding PCS. But, by far the greatest unjustified reward goes to those with technical deficiencies.

One way to tighten things up is to toughen up on technical judging. By that, I mean the judges should be unforgiving on improper edge takeoffs and landings, pre-rotations, under-rotations, etc. Unforgiving = zero points.

A season or two of that would let the real cream rise to the top.

TontoK said:

Skater Boy's post trimmed for brevity.

I agree with you on the point of ugly positions earning additional credit. It's ridiculous.

I also agree with you on your sentiments regarding PCS. But, by far the greatest unjustified reward goes to those with technical deficiencies.

One way to tighten things up is to toughen up on technical judging. By that, I mean the judges should be unforgiving on improper edge takeoffs and landings, pre-rotations, under-rotations, etc. Unforgiving = zero points.

A season or two of that would let the real cream rise to the top.

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I agree with this. I miss the days where the TES scoring (GOE's) were unbelievably strict to the point getting 130 points in ladies and 180-190 points for men were massive. What I don't understand is that GOE's these days are almost giveaways for the top skaters, and non-existent on the earlier skating groups. It's as if the judges are making magic happen for the sake of making magic happen. Many times this season and the previous season I found myself confused as to why a single skater got their points, where in fact what they did in their performance did not merit such.

mrfarmer said:

I agree with this. I miss the days where the TES scoring (GOE's) were unbelievably strict to the point getting 130 points in ladies and 180-190 points for men were massive. What I don't understand is that GOE's these days are almost giveaways for the top skaters, and non-existent on the earlier skating groups. It's as if the judges are making magic happen for the sake of making magic happen. Many times this season and the previous season I found myself confused as to why a single skater got their points, where in fact what they did in their performance did not merit such.

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GOEs are awarded based on a set of specific bullet points, for jumps and spins and steps. Getting high GOE on a jump or a spin that doesn't look particularly eye pleasing is not wrong according to the code of points, because if they match bullet points, they should be given the points for it. It does seem, though, that quads and triple axels are much more likely to be given GOEs for the bullets they match than many other triples. I don't think I see a lot of triples in men getting full GOE, even if they were to match the number of bullets required for it. If someone manages to have full GOE on a 3Lz in the second half, which would be 8.70 points, that would still be less than a base value of a 4T in the first half. The difficulty of doing quads is already being rewarded in the base value, so it confuses me why we see so few non 3A triples being rewarded. And yet, it's rare to see GOEs above 1.50 (that's around a +2 avg.) for a non-3A triple.

I agree earlier skating groups don't get as many GOE. Sure, most of the time it is because those earlier skating groups have less technically proficient skaters compared to later groups, but you can see even differences between the second to last and the last groups of a competition. For all that the bullet points for GOEs should make it more objective, judging does seem to be rather subjective and it does seem GOEs start flowing more at the upper echelons and can be somewhat dependent on skating order too.

I say make both men/women do half their elements in the first half. While I am impressed by any skater who can still move after two minutes I do not like it when they throw everything in the second half.