Subjective judging

Bluediamonds09 · Jul 14, 2017

I don't know how I'll do it, but I wanted to start a change.org thing in reference to figure skating judging. Before someone shuts down my train of thought, please hear me out.

I have nothing against the skaters. I show no hate to them, I don't think it's right to post things like "ugly" or "cheater". All I'm trying to do is make a change in the way the judges so obviously cheat in this sport. Not calling edge calls. Low balling based on reputation. Etc etc etc....

I'm only one person, and I'm not famous. The only way I can get myself heard is if a lot of fans back me up on this. Skaters spend so much time and money on this sport, it is a shame for the judges to cheat the way they do. If I started something on change.org, I was wondering if a fellow figure skating fans could offer me tips on how to reach a wide audience, how to say what I want to say without being offensive, etc. Surely someone reading this knows some "high-up, big-time skating names/officials " to pass this along to. Please. I do love this sport and hate what it's becoming.

Barb · Jul 14, 2017

people tried with Mirai vs Ashley for the olympics and with Yuna vs Adelina, and Yuna being the biggest thing in korea, it did not work, figure skating is too much subjective.

Violet Bliss · Jul 14, 2017

Everybody wants bad things eliminated and good things and improvements instituted. But grievances vary greatly with different personal and political perspectives. Words like "cheat" and "lowball" are subjective perception based. Sure, everybody is against cheating and lowballing but they all define and see such acts differently.

Accusations and petitions need to be precise and based on clear facts that most can agree on. Ditto suggested solutions.

Ic3Rabbit · Jul 14, 2017

Unless you know the true deep down inter-workings of the sport from a personal level, or secondary personal level, this would be a huge and complete waste of your time. Just sayin' :slink:

gsk8 · Jul 14, 2017

Just a reminder that not allow links to (or promotions of) petitions, surveys, etc. (see Guidelines).

Thanks!

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 14, 2017

I'm not saying there isn't cheating, but missed calls and subjective judging based on reputation aren't necessarily evidence of cheating. Missed calls can result from a tech panel member not being able to see the wrong edge from the camera angle. Reputation judging isn't cheating, either (although it isn't a good thing). Top skaters compete in more prominent events, so the judges are more familiar with their abilities and the nuances in their programs. Judges also have personal tastes that can influence how they view the artistic and interpretative aspects of a performance.

concorde · Jul 14, 2017

I went to a parent seminar awhile back and there was a panel of top level judges that explained to us all about the judging system. Basically there is a set of criteria but it is up to the individual judge how much weight to apply (or not apply) to certain bullets within a criteria. Also consider that with a full set of judges, each is viewing the skater from a slightly different angle and from one end of the judging panel, the views will be completely different. Once all that is taken into account, it is no surprise that different judges score a skater differently.

Judges also need to keep competition notes because if their scores are questioned upon internal review, they have must justify why they gave the score. And from what I can tell, judges do try to police themselves

It was a fascinating discussion!

marusya19 · Jul 14, 2017

Last several years word cheat [by fans of Yuna, for instance] connected only with woman skating and one egde call in one jump. They dont care about ice dance, pair, no. Only one thing make them crazy in judging system. So no. Its not good idea for all figure skating, not like this.

lappo · Jul 15, 2017

If I were to make a petition, I would ask for more research and solutions like this applied to figure skating and other judged sports: http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/3-d-lasers-be-part-gymnastics-judging-2020-tokyo-olympics

The full study for the development of this system was really interesting, unfortunately I don't have it with me.

Skater Boy · Jul 15, 2017

A wise person (my mom lol) once said what is "fair" is when you get what you want or what you think is fair or should happen. Sounds simplistic but if you looked at these forums you can tell. One one person thought was a diamond another thinks was coal. If we had a Golden Skate Olympic podium it would be so large it could house all of Johnny Weir's designer bags. lol. The The notion of fairness is wonderful but practically speaking there are always problems. It seems like ie the "petition" to change that brought us IJS also brought us a whole new slew of challenges.

Ender · Jul 15, 2017

Doesn't ISU use the "cheated take-off" term in their ISU handbook?

Neenah16 · Jul 15, 2017

Bluediamonds09 said:
I don't know how I'll do it, but I wanted to start a change.org thing in reference to figure skating judging. Before someone shuts down my train of thought, please hear me out.

I have nothing against the skaters. I show no hate to them, I don't think it's right to post things like "ugly" or "cheater". All I'm trying to do is make a change in the way the judges so obviously cheat in this sport. Not calling edge calls. Low balling based on reputation. Etc etc etc....

I'm only one person, and I'm not famous. The only way I can get myself heard is if a lot of fans back me up on this. Skaters spend so much time and money on this sport, it is a shame for the judges to cheat the way they do. If I started something on change.org, I was wondering if a fellow figure skating fans could offer me tips on how to reach a wide audience, how to say what I want to say without being offensive, etc. Surely someone reading this knows some "high-up, big-time skating names/officials " to pass this along to. Please. I do love this sport and hate what it's becoming.

Accusing the judges of cheating is a very serious matter and you better have proof of wrongdoing before making any public statements about it. You need real proof, not just the opinions and feeling of people on the internet.

You must be careful or you may end up damaging the reputation of the sport more than helping it this way.

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 15, 2017

lappo said:
If I were to make a petition, I would ask for more research and solutions like this applied to figure skating and other judged sports: http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/3-d-lasers-be-part-gymnastics-judging-2020-tokyo-olympics

The full study for the development of this system was really interesting, unfortunately I don't have it with me.

The one improvement that I think should be made is larger tech panels and more cameras at Worlds and Olympics. It probably isn't practical for smaller events, but I also don't think it is critically important that the calls be perfect at GP's or Senior B's. However, the skaters' legacies are defined by results at the two biggest events, so I'd at least like to see the obvious errors called at those competitions.

ragdoll · Jul 16, 2017

The only judging that can be improved is the technical by doing everything possible for the panel to be able to spot any mistakes. Figure skating is partly a subjective sport though and the artistic side of it will always be subjective. Judges are people and people have feelings and different tastes. What and also whom appeals to one won't appeal to another just as it is at any internet forum, TV or live audience and therefore will never be "fair" in the eyes of the fans. Some are more in favour of the artistic and some of techical ability and that makes it difficult in a sport where both are to be taken into account. Some people (and therefore judges) are charmed by the personality and looks of one skater and others by that of another skater which is also a factor that will always have an impact.

OS · Jul 16, 2017

Subjective judging is part of a human judged sport.

It is therefore of critical importance to put together a balanced judging panels of high quality well-experienced individuals at the highest level, where credible individuals selected from a diverse range of national, social, cultural, geographical background where their universal objectivity can be at least balance out individual subjectivity, otherwise figure skating might have well be another insular beauty pageantry contest selected by the sponsors, and not an Olympic standard sport entails fair level field of competition. Good aesthetics and great artistry don't change over night when it is judged to be otherwise, it should able to stand up to scrutiny.

The same scrutiny should be no different than how the jurors selection can be scrutinised and selected before an important decision in the court of law. ie/ It should not be a panel put together by rich lobbyists/sponsors to pass incentivised rules/slants that only favours them.

jenaj · Jul 16, 2017

Judging can never be made completely objective. That is why it is called judging. Judges need to be free, or as free as possible, from conflicts of interest. That means they should receive nothing of value from any of their federations. I know they are not paid, but they do receive travel expenses and other perks, and as far as I know, the federations pay these. Also the federations should have no role in who gets to judge. I personally think that judges should be paid for their time and travel by the ISU. Each federation would contribute to a fund used for this purpose but would have no say-so in how it is used. And judges caught cheating should be banned for life.

mrrice · Jul 16, 2017

jenaj said:
Judging can never be made completely objective. That is why it is called judging. Judges need to be free, or as free as possible, from conflicts of interest. That means they should receive nothing of value from any of their federations. I know they are not paid, but they do receive travel expenses and other perks, and as far as I know, the federations pay these. Also the federations should have no role in who gets to judge. I personally think that judges should be paid for their time and travel by the ISU. Each federation would contribute to a fund used for this purpose but would have no say-so in how it is used. And judges caught cheating should be banned for life.

Judging will always be subjective and there's really no way around it. The COP has helped but, there's no way to get past the training and the environment in which the judge was trained. Though I live and was trained in California, my ballet and dance training was IMO, very Russian because that's where my teacher was from. We saw Balanchine Ballets along with pieces by Twyla Tharp. Athletics were important but, they were not as important as "The Performance" and "The Connection" between the performer and the music. That is where I would differ from other judges on the panel. Unless Patrick Chan falls on his head, he is the best performer that is currently skating today. Hanyu, Javi, and Nathan have their moments but, IMO, Patrick is still the king. Look out for Mikhail K. of Russia as I think he is really coming into his own.

That being said, I couldn't imagine cheating as I think it's beneath me. I would be prepared to justify my numbers and let the chips fall where they fall.

cl2 · Jul 16, 2017

drivingmissdaisy said:
The one improvement that I think should be made is larger tech panels and more cameras at Worlds and Olympics. It probably isn't practical for smaller events, but I also don't think it is critically important that the calls be perfect at GP's or Senior B's. However, the skaters' legacies are defined by results at the two biggest events, so I'd at least like to see the obvious errors called at those competitions.

I definitely agree with having more cameras and more angles. I don't get it, isn't it embarrassing to the ISU when the audience gets to see footage from media cameras clearly showing a wrong edge, whereas judges are purposefully prevented from seeing those footage?

Subjective judging

Bluediamonds09

Barb

Violet Bliss

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

gsk8

drivingmissdaisy

concorde

marusya19

lappo

Skater Boy

Ender

Match Penalty

Neenah16

drivingmissdaisy

ragdoll

OS

Sedated by Modonium

jenaj

mrrice

cl2

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