Yuzuru is going to put 5 quads | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Yuzuru is going to put 5 quads

cinnamon

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
So now Shoma as well:

"Uno's plan is to have a fifth quad in his free skate this season after having done four -- two quad toes, a quad flip and a quad loop -- last season.
Such are the demands on top male skaters in an era when the quad ante seems to ratchet up every year."
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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I feel like we are getting to the point where the worthwhileness of Quads needs to be reassessed. Skaters have been learning so much more with technology these days to efficiently position their bodies for jumps and squeeze tight on the rotation until they hit the ice.

The art of doing as big a Triple jump as possible, and completing the rotation entirely in the air before beginning to land, is lost on this new generation of skaters. Jumps are getting so monotone now, it's all just the same kind of whippy action, inherently favoring guys who have little muscle and slight frames. The skillset of doing other kinds of jump timings and showing off an explosive kind of power is not being valued.

It's feeling like it's time to limit the number of Quads and start focusing on quality and also on jump combinations (it's been AGES since anyone has done something like a 3Axel+3Toe+3Loop combo). Those are difficult, distinct skills that deserve to have a place in competition, rather than just how many times you can eek out quad rotations (not to mention so many other non-quad skills that are taking a backseat). Let the guys try to do 2 Quad Lutzes and a Quad Flip if they want to show off the maximum Quad difficulty possible in a program. I really don't think we need to see more than 3 Quads per Long Program and probably not more than 1 in the SP. I'd rather see the guys attempting Quad+3Loop combos in the SP if they want to attempt more difficulty there (the rules need to change to make that worthwhile of course). Especially because the rule about needing to have good preceding movement for the solo jump in the SP is being actively ignored; most guys are just doing a 2nd quad in the SP with very little transition before it, and they aren't getting deducted.
 

Tahuu

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Dec 3, 2014
^^ I wonder if you have forgotten none of your voluminous CoP proposals was considered years ago by ISU, who knows the Olympic Motto better: Citius, Altius, Fortius.
 

Yatagarasu

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Nov 29, 2015
Doing more quads, at the expense of other abilities, doesn't make you faster, higher, or stronger.

I don't think restricting quads is the solution either. Of course we'll have one pass less from next season but in order to encourage work on overall skating, they could raise the PCS ceiling for one and distinguish properly between skaters, instead of as it is now, and IMO, what they could do, is re-assess how jump combinations are being scored. So instead of what we have now, figure out how to rank 4-3 and 3-4, or what you mentioned, 4-3-3, or yes why not, 4-1-4 etc. As it is, there's just not enough incentive to play around in comps (though since this thread started with Yuzu, he does for example during practice). There are other options to limiting quad numbers, which IMO simply goes against the spirit of sport itself.
 

Tahuu

On the Ice
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Dec 3, 2014
Doing more quads, at the expense of other abilities, doesn't make you faster, higher, or stronger.

In terms of figure skating, the progress from 1S in 1920 Summer Olympics to 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz we expect to see in 2018 Winter Olympics does represent faster, higher and stronger.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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I think there's something to be said for testing the ability of competitors to do some high quality Triple jumps. Doing a jump like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9L-uzvKrbk&t=50s - is really a different skill than doing a Quad, even if it might be "easier" as a single standalone comparison. Shouldn't it be important for the athletes to show a variety of skills?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Doing more quads, at the expense of other abilities, doesn't make you faster, higher, or stronger.

I always interpreted "faster, higher, stronger" as referring to an athlete training to become faster and/or higher and/or stronger, in order or to better themselves and be progressively more and more competitive. In order to execute a quad, athletes have had to become faster, higher and stronger than they have been in the past. You can't execute a quad (especially more difficult quads) without improving your speed going into them, achieving height on the actual jump (more than compared to a triple), and mustering the strength to be able to rotate it and land such difficult maneuvers. Not to mention, the mental strength it takes to pull off such a feat.

As Tahuu said, going from a 1S in the 1920 Olympics to 5 different quads in the 2018 Olympics, does exemplify the Olympic motto. Also, the "other abilities" you've alluded to have also progressed over time -- not just jumping.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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You can't execute a a quad without achieving height on the actual jump (more than compared to a triple)

That is false. Sure, the minimum amount of height you need to do a quad is higher than the minimum for a triple, but I was specifically talking about huge triple jumps being lost. You don't need more height to do Quads as compared to a GREAT Triple, you just need more rotation. And that rotation often comes from actually having less muscle, literally being less strong in order to have less mass on your body and thus rotate easier. Look at the physiques of the current guys who are consistently hitting all these quads. Notice anything?

Ask Shoma Uno to do a Triple Lutz with the same quality as Boitano's or to do a Quad Toe. Guess which one is easier for Shoma - the Quad. He actually can't do a Triple Lutz of that quality if his life depended on it, yet he can rotate a "Quad Lutz" (or close to it anyway). Many of the guys have even talked about how the Triples become more difficult to do well when they focus so much on Quads.

Should skaters also cut out spins to do more Quads? No spin is worth more than 5 points at most after all, so that must mean the best spin of all time is super easy to do as compared to a Quad. Nevermind that nobody in the past 7 years has shown a spin as great as what Lambiel was capable of.

Also, the "other abilities" you've alluded to have also progressed over time -- not just jumping.

Performance and Interpretation has pretty much just gone down.
 

daphna

On the Ice
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Mar 6, 2004
YAY for bringing back SEIMI! it is Yuzu's signature piece, I nerver get tired of watching 2015NHK and GPF (-:
 

Li'Kitsu

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Joined
Dec 29, 2011
That is false. Sure, the minimum amount of height you need to do a quad is higher than the minimum for a triple, but I was specifically talking about huge triple jumps being lost. You don't need more height to do Quads as compared to a GREAT Triple, you just need more rotation. And that rotation often comes from actually having less muscle, literally being less strong in order to have less mass on your body and thus rotate easier. Look at the physiques of the current guys who are consistently hitting all these quads. Notice anything?

Mhm, I don't think I can agree with that. If you look at the "top 6 men" (= Yuzu, Javi, Patrick, Shoma, Nathan, Boyang) I don't see the same correlation you do. Out of the younger ones, Boyang is the leanest one, and he has the biggest jumps between them (his 4Lz is huge!). Shoma has by far the smallest jumps, but he is rather "stocky" by comparison. Out of the 3 veterans, Yuzu is by far the leanest, but his jumps are huge (even bigger then those of the others, IMO).

That aside, I agree with the point that great triples aren't being rewarded enough compared to lacking quads (or badly done quads being over rewarded). But that's because of bad judging and the judges just throwing +GOE at everything that is kind of a quad, whereas triples seem to be rarely allowed to get +3, no matter how good they are. And that just makes no sense.
When I was in Helsinki, one of the jumps I loved the most was Mikhail Kolyadas SP 3Lz. He did it in front of my corner and it was huge, the amount of air time he has left after finishing the rotation is amazing. That looked a lot more impressive to me - from an athletic stand point as well - than small quads with eeked out rotation.
 

liv

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Oct 12, 2015
"Performance and Interpretation has pretty much just gone down."

Just for interest, compare all the Olympic gold medallists from 1984 to 2014. Can we say Yuzu's interpretation and performance was worse than Petrenko, or Urmanov? Was Hamilton's better than Kulik or Yagudin? Boitano and Plushenko, etc.,?

I think the guys are going to be improving again in every department, now that they have those quads. It seems like people said the same things when triples started showing up... where is the artistry? Remember the huge build ups into 3As that compromised big parts of programs? Not anymore. Soon these quads will be woven into the fabric of the program, just like the 3s are, and everything else will come along ascwell.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
That is false. Sure, the minimum amount of height you need to do a quad is higher than the minimum for a triple, but I was specifically talking about huge triple jumps being lost. You don't need more height to do Quads as compared to a GREAT Triple, you just need more rotation. And that rotation often comes from actually having less muscle, literally being less strong in order to have less mass on your body and thus rotate easier. Look at the physiques of the current guys who are consistently hitting all these quads. Notice anything?

Ask Shoma Uno to do a Triple Lutz with the same quality as Boitano's or to do a Quad Toe. Guess which one is easier for Shoma - the Quad. He actually can't do a Triple Lutz of that quality if his life depended on it, yet he can rotate a "Quad Lutz" (or close to it anyway). Many of the guys have even talked about how the Triples become more difficult to do well when they focus so much on Quads.

Should skaters also cut out spins to do more Quads? No spin is worth more than 5 points at most after all, so that must mean the best spin of all time is super easy to do as compared to a Quad. Nevermind that nobody in the past 7 years has shown a spin as great as what Lambiel was capable of.

Performance and Interpretation has pretty much just gone down.

Yes, I was referring to the fact that the minimum height in order to execute a quad must be higher. That's not to say that triples can't have height to them either. The point was, the athlete needs to jump higher than they have before in order to be able to execute tougher maneuvers. A skater can be the fastest rotator but if they get insufficient speed and height or develop the strength to control the landing they will not be able to execute a quad - which is obviously a much harder maneuver. The same way a triple requires way more athleticism and height than sufficiently necessary to execute a double.

The sport aspects have improved. And programs while may not be as artistic (to you and some others) that's what happens when the sport aspect evolves. Even adding triple jumps from doubles made less of a focus on the more artistic aspects of a program and greater emphasis on athleticism. I guess I also missed the part in the Olympic motto that says "faster, higher, stronger, performancier, interpetrationier". :sarcasm:

Also re: spins there have been excellent spinners who execute spins with better basic positions, tougher variations and in some cases greater speed than Lambiel - Jason Brown and Yuzuru Hanyu are ones that come to mind. Especially on the ladies side the spins have improved in difficulty and creativity. This being said, Lambiel's spinning was still ahead of his time, and few even compare, but it's not like he hasn't ever been matched or exceeded in spinning. Certainly if you look at the men's field of his day and prior, and the men's field today, the quality, difficulty and variety of spins has improved in the field as a whole.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
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Dec 4, 2016
A well executed quad that is powerful, high, with nice air position, secure landing, and a beautiful running edge IMO is art.. Even better if it is placed to highlight a moment in the program and worked perfectly with the music :luv17:

I would love to have Boyong's 4Lz framed on my wall. If only they would make the technology to have Harry potter like moving pictures :eek:hwell:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
A well executed quad that is powerful, high, with nice air position, secure landing, and a beautiful running edge IMO is art.. Even better if it is placed to highlight a moment in the program and worked perfectly with the music :luv17:

I would love to have Boyong's 4Lz framed on my wall. If only they would make the technology to have Harry potter like moving pictures :eek:hwell:

They have digital photo frames that support GIFs too. They're a pretty penny (at least $500 with a quick Googling)... but Boyang is worth it! :biggrin:

And yes, I agree - beautiful quads especially effortless ones like Hanyu/Jin/Fernandez/Chan/etc. can execute are arguably works of art and not just feats of athleticism.
 

Skater Boy

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Feb 24, 2012
Hanyu is very smart. Reusing a program will give him the edge to add these extra hard elements. I think Chan should have done the same if he had any chance.
 

Ender

Match Penalty
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May 17, 2017
"Performance and Interpretation has pretty much just gone down."

Just for interest, compare all the Olympic gold medallists from 1984 to 2014. Can we say Yuzu's interpretation and performance was worse than Petrenko, or Urmanov? Was Hamilton's better than Kulik or Yagudin? Boitano and Plushenko, etc.,?

I think the guys are going to be improving again in every department, now that they have those quads. It seems like people said the same things when triples started showing up... where is the artistry? Remember the huge build ups into 3As that compromised big parts of programs? Not anymore. Soon these quads will be woven into the fabric of the program, just like the 3s are, and everything else will come along ascwell.
If we have the quality of quad like this every time: https://68.media.tumblr.com/ac5165e6bb21c2004b5c1adf229e5660/tumblr_ovaq6vCFEC1sdczkco3_500.gif

I think people wouldn't mind against such quads. But the majority of quads don't look that smooth. I think quads should not be discouraged. However, the judges and specialists should encourage quality more than what they're doing. The way they're judging now makes people feel like good quality and bad quality are getting the same scores. So the rumor about quads getting lower BV after the Olympic, with the range of GOE up to 5 sounds nice to me.

If the quad BV is lower 2 points, then badly executed quads will get less scores than they're getting right now. And good quality quads will get good GOE. The point is will judges apply it correctly...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Hanyu is very smart. Reusing a program will give him the edge to add these extra hard elements. I think Chan should have done the same if he had any chance.

Well, Chan wants to bring something new to the table. Two new somethings, actually - both an SP and a FS. ;) Chan wants to (presumably) end his Olympic career not by showcasing what his skating has already been but rather showcasing what his skating has become. That might not be a winning strategy compared to the other guys playing it safer/smarter by reusing old programs that they already know work well for the judges. But he's committed to showcasing programs and a side of his skating people haven't seen before - which would be a win for him - plus it could prove smart as well in that these programs contrast well against the warhorses and repeats that others are opting for. It's a bit of a gamble doing 2 brand new ones, when repeating one past well-received program would be easier (of course, repeating two past successful programs would be even easier) but so far the reception of these new programs has been pretty positive. He might not have 5-6 quads at the Olympics to put him in gold contention, but he can wow the crowd just the same.
 

4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
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Well, Chan wants to bring something new to the table. Two new somethings, actually - both an SP and a FS. ;) Chan wants to (presumably) end his Olympic career not by showcasing what his skating has already been but rather showcasing what his skating has become. That might not be a winning strategy compared to the other guys playing it safer/smarter by reusing old programs that they already know work well for the judges. But he's committed to showcasing programs and a side of his skating people haven't seen before - which would be a win for him - plus it could prove smart as well in that these programs contrast well against the warhorses and repeats that others are opting for. It's a bit of a gamble doing 2 brand new ones, when repeating one past well-received program would be easier (of course, repeating two past successful programs would be even easier) but so far the reception of these new programs has been pretty positive. He might not have 5-6 quads at the Olympics to put him in gold contention, but he can wow the crowd just the same.

:agree2::cheer2::agree2::cheer2::agree2::cheer2:
 
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