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Thread: Yuzuru is going to put 5 quads

  1. #91
    Bona Fide Member Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    That is false. Sure, the minimum amount of height you need to do a quad is higher than the minimum for a triple, but I was specifically talking about huge triple jumps being lost. You don't need more height to do Quads as compared to a GREAT Triple, you just need more rotation. And that rotation often comes from actually having less muscle, literally being less strong in order to have less mass on your body and thus rotate easier. Look at the physiques of the current guys who are consistently hitting all these quads. Notice anything?
    Mhm, I don't think I can agree with that. If you look at the "top 6 men" (= Yuzu, Javi, Patrick, Shoma, Nathan, Boyang) I don't see the same correlation you do. Out of the younger ones, Boyang is the leanest one, and he has the biggest jumps between them (his 4Lz is huge!). Shoma has by far the smallest jumps, but he is rather "stocky" by comparison. Out of the 3 veterans, Yuzu is by far the leanest, but his jumps are huge (even bigger then those of the others, IMO).

    That aside, I agree with the point that great triples aren't being rewarded enough compared to lacking quads (or badly done quads being over rewarded). But that's because of bad judging and the judges just throwing +GOE at everything that is kind of a quad, whereas triples seem to be rarely allowed to get +3, no matter how good they are. And that just makes no sense.
    When I was in Helsinki, one of the jumps I loved the most was Mikhail Kolyadas SP 3Lz. He did it in front of my corner and it was huge, the amount of air time he has left after finishing the rotation is amazing. That looked a lot more impressive to me - from an athletic stand point as well - than small quads with eeked out rotation.

  2. #92
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    "Performance and Interpretation has pretty much just gone down."

    Just for interest, compare all the Olympic gold medallists from 1984 to 2014. Can we say Yuzu's interpretation and performance was worse than Petrenko, or Urmanov? Was Hamilton's better than Kulik or Yagudin? Boitano and Plushenko, etc.,?

    I think the guys are going to be improving again in every department, now that they have those quads. It seems like people said the same things when triples started showing up... where is the artistry? Remember the huge build ups into 3As that compromised big parts of programs? Not anymore. Soon these quads will be woven into the fabric of the program, just like the 3s are, and everything else will come along ascwell.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    That is false. Sure, the minimum amount of height you need to do a quad is higher than the minimum for a triple, but I was specifically talking about huge triple jumps being lost. You don't need more height to do Quads as compared to a GREAT Triple, you just need more rotation. And that rotation often comes from actually having less muscle, literally being less strong in order to have less mass on your body and thus rotate easier. Look at the physiques of the current guys who are consistently hitting all these quads. Notice anything?

    Ask Shoma Uno to do a Triple Lutz with the same quality as Boitano's or to do a Quad Toe. Guess which one is easier for Shoma - the Quad. He actually can't do a Triple Lutz of that quality if his life depended on it, yet he can rotate a "Quad Lutz" (or close to it anyway). Many of the guys have even talked about how the Triples become more difficult to do well when they focus so much on Quads.

    Should skaters also cut out spins to do more Quads? No spin is worth more than 5 points at most after all, so that must mean the best spin of all time is super easy to do as compared to a Quad. Nevermind that nobody in the past 7 years has shown a spin as great as what Lambiel was capable of.

    Performance and Interpretation has pretty much just gone down.
    Yes, I was referring to the fact that the minimum height in order to execute a quad must be higher. That's not to say that triples can't have height to them either. The point was, the athlete needs to jump higher than they have before in order to be able to execute tougher maneuvers. A skater can be the fastest rotator but if they get insufficient speed and height or develop the strength to control the landing they will not be able to execute a quad - which is obviously a much harder maneuver. The same way a triple requires way more athleticism and height than sufficiently necessary to execute a double.

    The sport aspects have improved. And programs while may not be as artistic (to you and some others) that's what happens when the sport aspect evolves. Even adding triple jumps from doubles made less of a focus on the more artistic aspects of a program and greater emphasis on athleticism. I guess I also missed the part in the Olympic motto that says "faster, higher, stronger, performancier, interpetrationier".

    Also re: spins there have been excellent spinners who execute spins with better basic positions, tougher variations and in some cases greater speed than Lambiel - Jason Brown and Yuzuru Hanyu are ones that come to mind. Especially on the ladies side the spins have improved in difficulty and creativity. This being said, Lambiel's spinning was still ahead of his time, and few even compare, but it's not like he hasn't ever been matched or exceeded in spinning. Certainly if you look at the men's field of his day and prior, and the men's field today, the quality, difficulty and variety of spins has improved in the field as a whole.

  4. #94
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    A well executed quad that is powerful, high, with nice air position, secure landing, and a beautiful running edge IMO is art.. Even better if it is placed to highlight a moment in the program and worked perfectly with the music

    I would love to have Boyong's 4Lz framed on my wall. If only they would make the technology to have Harry potter like moving pictures

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neenah16 View Post
    A well executed quad that is powerful, high, with nice air position, secure landing, and a beautiful running edge IMO is art.. Even better if it is placed to highlight a moment in the program and worked perfectly with the music

    I would love to have Boyong's 4Lz framed on my wall. If only they would make the technology to have Harry potter like moving pictures
    They have digital photo frames that support GIFs too. They're a pretty penny (at least $500 with a quick Googling)... but Boyang is worth it!

    And yes, I agree - beautiful quads especially effortless ones like Hanyu/Jin/Fernandez/Chan/etc. can execute are arguably works of art and not just feats of athleticism.

  6. #96
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    Hanyu is very smart. Reusing a program will give him the edge to add these extra hard elements. I think Chan should have done the same if he had any chance.

  7. #97
    I believe in my predictions Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv View Post
    "Performance and Interpretation has pretty much just gone down."

    Just for interest, compare all the Olympic gold medallists from 1984 to 2014. Can we say Yuzu's interpretation and performance was worse than Petrenko, or Urmanov? Was Hamilton's better than Kulik or Yagudin? Boitano and Plushenko, etc.,?

    I think the guys are going to be improving again in every department, now that they have those quads. It seems like people said the same things when triples started showing up... where is the artistry? Remember the huge build ups into 3As that compromised big parts of programs? Not anymore. Soon these quads will be woven into the fabric of the program, just like the 3s are, and everything else will come along ascwell.
    If we have the quality of quad like this every time: https://68.media.tumblr.com/ac5165e6...czkco3_500.gif

    I think people wouldn't mind against such quads. But the majority of quads don't look that smooth. I think quads should not be discouraged. However, the judges and specialists should encourage quality more than what they're doing. The way they're judging now makes people feel like good quality and bad quality are getting the same scores. So the rumor about quads getting lower BV after the Olympic, with the range of GOE up to 5 sounds nice to me.

    If the quad BV is lower 2 points, then badly executed quads will get less scores than they're getting right now. And good quality quads will get good GOE. The point is will judges apply it correctly...

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Hanyu is very smart. Reusing a program will give him the edge to add these extra hard elements. I think Chan should have done the same if he had any chance.
    Well, Chan wants to bring something new to the table. Two new somethings, actually - both an SP and a FS. Chan wants to (presumably) end his Olympic career not by showcasing what his skating has already been but rather showcasing what his skating has become. That might not be a winning strategy compared to the other guys playing it safer/smarter by reusing old programs that they already know work well for the judges. But he's committed to showcasing programs and a side of his skating people haven't seen before - which would be a win for him - plus it could prove smart as well in that these programs contrast well against the warhorses and repeats that others are opting for. It's a bit of a gamble doing 2 brand new ones, when repeating one past well-received program would be easier (of course, repeating two past successful programs would be even easier) but so far the reception of these new programs has been pretty positive. He might not have 5-6 quads at the Olympics to put him in gold contention, but he can wow the crowd just the same.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Well, Chan wants to bring something new to the table. Two new somethings, actually - both an SP and a FS. Chan wants to (presumably) end his Olympic career not by showcasing what his skating has already been but rather showcasing what his skating has become. That might not be a winning strategy compared to the other guys playing it safer/smarter by reusing old programs that they already know work well for the judges. But he's committed to showcasing programs and a side of his skating people haven't seen before - which would be a win for him - plus it could prove smart as well in that these programs contrast well against the warhorses and repeats that others are opting for. It's a bit of a gamble doing 2 brand new ones, when repeating one past well-received program would be easier (of course, repeating two past successful programs would be even easier) but so far the reception of these new programs has been pretty positive. He might not have 5-6 quads at the Olympics to put him in gold contention, but he can wow the crowd just the same.

  10. #100
    GS Supporter ruffledgrouse's Avatar
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    Godspeed to all our crazy boys

    Sidenote: SEIMEI'S BACK!

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffledgrouse View Post
    SEIMEI'S BACK!
    As good as it was originally, I've always thought Seimei had the potential to be even better. As Brian Orser said, that program deserves to be at the Olympics. Can't wait to see what Yuzu and Shae have done with it.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sydney Rose View Post
    As good as it was originally, I've always thought Seimei had the potential to be even better. As Brian Orser said, that program deserves to be at the Olympics. Can't wait to see what Yuzu and Shae have done with it.
    I agree. I honestly think Hanyu hasn't reached his full potential with Seimei even when he broke WR with it. I feel there will be more. As for the quality, I do think he will find a way to bring out the best quality he can, even more than what he has done ever before.

  13. #103
    Skating is Art, if you let it be Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Mhm, I don't think I can agree with that. If you look at the "top 6 men" (= Yuzu, Javi, Patrick, Shoma, Nathan, Boyang) I don't see the same correlation you do. Out of the younger ones, Boyang is the leanest one, and he has the biggest jumps between them (his 4Lz is huge!).
    Boyang's 4Lutz is huge, but look at his 3Lutz in the same program. It's quite small and not very flowing. The effort is clearly not being put on quality Triples, rather on just making sure to rotate as much jump content as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And programs while may not be as artistic (to you and some others) that's what happens when the sport aspect evolves. Even adding triple jumps from doubles made less of a focus on the more artistic aspects of a program and greater emphasis on athleticism.
    The rules need to evolve. I'm not going to write a whole thesis paper yet again in this post, but if figure skating isn't keeping the artistic qualities intact, then it's inherently hurting itself. Also, the artistry in skating didn't diminish when Triples became the standard. It just got better, in part because the jumps themselves were adding extra flavor and excitement. I don't see extra quads adding flavor or excitement anymore. There's almost no risk to even doing them, since you get so many points for bad Quads. Even if the rules on scoring the Quads change, that still doesn't fix the problem of inherently overrewarding one type of skill. There's always going to be breaking point somewhere that needs to be monitored in order for balanced to be maintained.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Also re: spins there have been excellent spinners who execute spins with better basic positions, tougher variations and in some cases greater speed than Lambiel - Jason Brown and Yuzuru Hanyu are ones that come to mind.
    Jason has done great spins but for my money no guy has done a spin as magnificent as Lambiel's combination spin at the end of his 2007 program. And more to the point, nobody is even trying to. Scratch spin isn't worth a level so people just ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Especially on the ladies side the spins have improved in difficulty and creativity.
    I can't agree with improved creativity at all. When everyone is just putting 4 difficult variations in spins (the definition of which is limited by the rules, so many great types of spins are now extinct), 2 of which must be on different feet for change-foot spins, it becomes quite predictable what skaters are doing to do. Just look at the Laybacks. It's all the same thing now, almost never any actual variation. No usage of the body positions and movements to create a unique texture that is specifically tailored to the music. Speaking of variation, so many skaters do the exact same spins in their SP's and LP's. That isn't creativity. Lucinda Ruh's spins were creative. What people are doing now is mechanical.

  14. #104
    Dorks, Inc. xeyra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Jason has done great spins but for my money no guy has done a spin as magnificent as Lambiel's combination spin at the end of his 2007 program. And more to the point, nobody is even trying to. Scratch spin isn't worth a level so people just ignore it.
    What about Deniss Vasiljevs? What do you think about his spins, particularly this?

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