'Radical change' could be on the way | Golden Skate

'Radical change' could be on the way

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

Per Phil Hersh, some changes the ISU is considering in order to re-balance the artistic and athletic sides of the sport.

Suggestions include reducing BV for quads, in singles AND pairs.

The most radical idea:

Another change may include replacing the current short program and free skate with what would effectively be an athletic program and an artistic program. Each would award full medals in events like the Olympics and the world championships, and there also would be a full medal for the all-around winner.

(An idea that I think COULD work, with very careful implementation.)

There are also responses from coaches re: the post-2018 30-second reduction for men's LPs, as they discuss how a shorter programs means less artistry, in their opinion.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
ok, yes, I like the idea, it would mean that someone like Mao would continue skating and winning medals :dance:.
 

andromache

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Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Really, a Boyang pic there? That's low.

They need SOME kind of photo.

And scores are cited:

In 2017, each of the top four men had significantly higher TES than PCS, with none getting more than 44 percent of his total from PCS. By percentage, in order of finish, the PCS were: Hanyu, 43.5 percent; Shoma Uno, 44; Boyang Jin, 42; and Nathan Chen, 43.8.

:confused2:

I like Boyang's skating but there's no doubt he started the recent quad revolution (pun not intended). It doesn't have to be a bad thing. He's such a good jumper that he broke the system. That's actually pretty cool.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Can you imagine how disgusting the current situation in FS should be for them that in their desperation propose something like that? they are fans too :laugh: :cry:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
A throw quad salchow being 1 point more than a throw triple flip/lutz? :laugh: Pair throws should be worth MORE and yet, they're scaling them down?!

I think the focus on artistry is admirable, but I don't think the guys will all of a sudden stop doing quads, because they're still worth considerably more than triples.

I think the idea of a technical medal and an artistic medal and an overall medal are a bit suspect... especially the artistic medal which could be easily politicked because it's purely subjective.
 

bytheriver

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

Per Phil Hersh, some changes the ISU is considering in order to re-balance the artistic and athletic sides of the sport.

Suggestions include reducing BV for quads, in singles AND pairs.

The most radical idea:



(An idea that I think COULD work, with very careful implementation.)

There are also responses from coaches re: the post-2018 30-second reduction for men's LPs, as they discuss how a shorter programs means less artistry, in their opinion.

I actually like the idea of creating separate categories. It isn't exactly like this in gymnastics (my area of expertise, haha, kinda), but growing up as a bars and beam specialist, it was always nice to know that I could succeed and win medals in that area even if I wasn't the most well-rounded. It made me more motivated. Not exactly the same, but it did make my career more memorable and successful.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I do find that change radical, mostly because I think the right people are (generally) winning the big events. The artists like Patrick and Hanyu can be vulnerable if they get passed too much technically by the others, and I think that's how a sport should work. I think the single worst thing about figure skating today is how much time the footwork takes away from a program, so I'd welcome any change that made the element more straightforward, so that straight-line, circular, and serpentine sequences looked more like the shape used to describe them.
 

sheetz

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
I'm quite cynical when it comes to figure skating judging, so I think this is not about artistry at all and mostly about the judges feeling they have lost control of the outcomes. The new system would allow judges to more easily hold up politically favored skaters.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
A throw quad salchow being 1 point more than a throw triple flip/lutz? :laugh: Pair throws should be worth MORE and yet, they're scaling them down?!

I think the focus on artistry is admirable, but I don't think the guys will all of a sudden stop doing quads, because they're still worth considerably more than triples.

I think the idea of a technical medal and an artistic medal and an overall medal are a bit suspect... especially the artistic medal which could be easily politicked because it's purely subjective.

Agree on the pairs throws. Ridiculous.

And I don't think the point is to stop the guys from doing quads, but to make those quads not add up QUITE so high.

I like the idea of a technical program and an artistic program, as long as both are still relatively balanced. Like, a technical program be COP points-based (artistry still matters to a certain extent, though perhaps weighted less), and an artistic program in which spins and footwork go back to the old 6.0 system way of being evaluated (not based on difficulty as determined by COP, but on how they look and go with the music), and a few required jumping passes that are worth the value of what is done, so that risky jumps are still encouraged. And no transitions score.
 

xeyra

Constant state
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Jan 10, 2017
ISU: We want to bridge the gap between the artistic and the technical.
Also ISU: Let's make one artistic and one technical program. Yay!
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
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Sep 28, 2013
Suggestions include reducing BV for quads, in singles AND pairs.
I'm betting reduction of quad base values is one change that will come into force.

...Coupled with the also-proposed simple "% of base value" for calculating GoE bonuses.

Then, with the already-agreed future change to the GoE range (-5 to +5, instead of -3 to +3)...

...there would be a lot more emphasis on quality and GoE (and not just for quads!)

Quality > Quantity
(or at least - Quality fights back, against Quantity!)

PS.
Whoever holds the WR when such things come to pass... could end up holding it forever: extraodinary quality/GoE would probably be required for all jumps, just to earn the same points that skaters earn right now for the same elements... and then they are handicapped by 30 seconds less time to do it in, in the FS... and one less jumping pass to score points with...! o_O
 

4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
:hopelessness:
lowering values on quads for pairs???? oh please...

artistic and technical programs with their own medals? and how would that add up in the complete skater for the all-event? seriously...

so the all around winner would be even more subjective than before as there would be more subjectivity in awarding points for the artistic event.... let's enjoy this year while we still have figure skating.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
They need SOME kind of photo.

And scores are cited:



:confused2:

I like Boyang's skating but there's no doubt he started the recent quad revolution (pun not intended). It doesn't have to be a bad thing. He's such a good jumper that he broke the system. That's actually pretty cool.

Yeah, unfortunately he stands the most to lose from this. Even if he improves his skating that much more, I don't ever see the judges giving him PCS comparable to the other guys. IMO, a Worlds/Olympic podium should have the best technician somewhere on it. This will only allow more artistic guys to worry less about better jumpers because the points will be held back.

Also that percent of the total from PCS varies from competition to competition.

If you ask me, skaters getting 42-44% of their score from the artistic mark and 56-58% for technical ability is fine. This effort to minimize TES will only distance the top skaters from everyone else, and "save them" from sloppy skates, placing them above "lesser" opponents who skate lights out but don't have the clout/artistry.
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
A throw quad salchow being 1 point more than a throw triple flip/lutz? :laugh: Pair throws should be worth MORE and yet, they're scaling them down?!

Sometimes sports do this when they don't want to encourage a particularly dangerous path of development. When Lu Xuan introduced the one-armed giant swing in women's gymnastics on uneven bars, it was purposely given a lower difficulty level than it was worth. And we do not see the element in women's gymnastics today.

I could see this happening with the pairs quad throws. The injury rate among the top pairs has been very high. There isn't a team doing those quad throws that hasn't been out or injury-hampered over the past couple years. Many teams have scaled back. And others are trying them while purposely landing on two feet. If the judges don't want to see a bunch of two-footed throws outscoring clean triples, then that is OK with me. And it is OK with me if I don't have to worry about Sui/Yuko/Peng/Aliona/etc. as much as I have over the past couple seasons.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I could see this happening with the pairs quad throws. The injury rate among the top pairs has been very high. There isn't a team doing those quad throws that hasn't been out or injury-hampered over the past couple years. Many teams have scaled back. And others are trying them while purposely landing on two feet. If the judges don't want to see a bunch of two-footed throws outscoring clean triples, then that is OK with me. And it is OK with me if I don't have to worry about Sui/Yuko/Peng/Aliona/etc. as much as I have over the past couple seasons.

I think increasing the value of the quad twist could be a fair compromise, as I don't think it has the injury record of quad throws.
 

NaVi

Medalist
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
"Everything is possible," Bianchetti wrote. "At the moment, it is absolutely too early to say anything. The intention is to have three different medals: one for technical, one for artistic and one all-around, but how it will be for sure is impossible to say now."

This will only work if they go all the way...

1. Perform under show lighting.
2. Add more time... at least 3:30.
3. 4 Jump Passes, 1 step sequence, 3 or 2 spins, 1 or 0 spiral/choreographic sequence
4. Ordinals with Literate judging... i.e., judges should articulate why they're judging in a certain way.
5. And I would allow ties but I know the Olympics doesn't like that.

And I disagree with the idea of giving 3 medals... just give 2. One for an artistic skate and another for the all-around main event. The artistic skate's main functions should be to be a fun attraction in itself(in comparison to the SP) and set the skating order for the all-around freeskate which should have more prestige.

I fear they just want to give out more medals for what is an SP without making any real adjustments.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
I think increasing the value of the quad twist could be a fair compromise, as I don't think it has the injury record of quad throws.

the quad twist's value is quite high compared to the triple, considering the difference between the quad throws vs triple throw..

also, twist bring a lot of injuries as well.. shoulders for the guys... and many concussions happened on twists.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Anyway, any radical change should be announced with enough time. Like 8-10 years. Current skaters have been training and preparing themselves all their life for one kind of competition.
 
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