'Radical change' could be on the way | Page 10 | Golden Skate

'Radical change' could be on the way

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Yeah, I can see that could be true.

So what about replacing the audience voting, with all the other skaters in each event voting on a scale of 1 to 10?

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Wouldn't that require the skaters to watch every performance? Also I honestly don't think the skaters are less biased than the audience. They will probably try to improve their own result or bring down rivals with their votes.
 

treblemakerem

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
I'm not sure we'd ever see a quad in a program again if they were worth 0 points on a fall... Falling on one might become more damaging with the new BV/GOE range so it will already make people hesitate a bit on them, but to make a jump worth 0 points when you fall? Any jump even, not just quads. This could demoralize skaters too much the moment a fall happened.

Okay so maybe don't make it worth zero points. But if there's a fall, the points you get should not be more than what you would get for a decent triple. There needs to be more reward for doing jumps you can actually land. Maybe it could be downgraded 2 rotations, so you only get credit for a double if you fall on a quad.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, you could have skaters voting on other disciplines and not their own event.

But you would still have at least as much nationalism and more subjectivity and popularity voting with skaters as with judges. And just as much as with fans, except that the skaters would at least know more about what they're seeing technically than the average fan.
 

singerskates

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Wouldn't that require the skaters to watch every performance? Also I honestly don't think the skaters are less biased than the audience. They will probably try to improve their own result or bring down rivals with their votes.
You missed the words "other skaters". At the Junior and Senior levels, skaters know what is worth a 10 and what is worth a 1. And no one can judge their own program, because you're busy skating it and can't see it while they're skating it. Maybe we should include that no skater from their own country can judge them either.

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Yatagarasu

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
You cannot have either the audience or the skaters voting. This is a sport. No serious sports governing body would ever accept that, never mind the IOC.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
You missed the words "other skaters". At the Junior and Senior levels, skaters know what is worth a 10 and what is worth a 1.

Actually, I doubt they do.

Well, I think anyone, even a non-fan who has never watched skating before, can tell the difference between 10 vs. 1. But if it comes to making distinctions between 5 vs. 7 vs. 9, let alone 6 or 6.5 vs. 7, it really depends on the skater and what they pay attention to.

High-level skaters will know a lot about the technical details of what it takes to achieve what they achieve. With a modest amount of training I'd trust them to award GOEs for elements, and with additional training to serve on technical panels.

But awarding scores of 0-10 for each program component requires having a good sense of what is possible in the sport as a whole, what to expect corresponds to "very good" or "average" or "weak" in terms of the whole range of skating and performance ability among the sport as a whole.

Skaters will have a good sense of the range of ability at their own training facilities and whatever they see from other skaters at events they compete in or attend as spectators. So they might have a better idea of what 1 or 2 or 3 means than fans who only watch elite skaters earning 6, 7, 8, 9, 10s. Especially in terms of Skating Skills.

But they don't necessarily have a good idea of what constitutes average vs. good vs. outstanding presentation or composition or interpretation unless they have made a study of what the top skaters and average skaters are doing and have done in the past.

Fans who follow elite skating closely and also watch all skaters at JGP events and watch skaters below junior level online or at local competitions or on trips to national events, etc., might have a better idea than skaters who are too busy training to spend much time watching. Especially fans who have been following closely for decades, compared to skaters who are still in their teens and have only been skating for barely 1 decade.

Some skaters also play musical instruments or take off-ice dance classes and follow these and other art forms as part of their artistic training or just as a means of entertainment in their off hours. Others are more technically inclined and spend their hours away from the rink at the gym or studying or engaging in other hobbies to relax that don't relate to understanding program components.

So the best qualified current skaters are probably better placed to score PCS than the average fan, but a historically and artistically minded fan who has also studied the PCS rules closely is probably better placed to score PE and CO and IN than the average skater.
 

EdgeCall

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
If the ISU is willing to make radical changes, have they considered other competition formats? For example, if a duel/knock-out system similar to tennis, parallel slalom or ski jumping was viable in FS, it would bring new aspects into the sport. The IJS points would be unnecessary, there would just be an odd number of judges to decide after each duel who was better. Skating times would necessarily be shorter, maybe something around 1:30. Such a system could replace the SP as a technical challenge, while the IJS could be adjusted for the FS to become the artistic part. At least the competitions would be more diversified than just two programs of the same format and only different scoring.
 

Mango

Royal Chinet 👑🍽️
Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
This is actually what is happening in almost all sports. It's FS that remains in its freak state. Sport is driven by popularity. If there is no popularity then there is no sport. I am perfectly fine with limiting FS to Russia, France, Italy, China, Japan, Korea and North America. Plus some single skaters from other countries. It's big enough.

Cross country skiing is practically limited to Scandinavian and Northern Europe countries, period. There is no point to eliminate Norwegians to make room for Ghana. Alpine skiing is limited to Europe and North America. That's reality. And if there is a talented skier from Tanzania then they have to prove their value by competing against Austrians. It's fair.

I'd rather see twenty Russian or Japanese skaters, than having them eliminated for Turkish or French Samoa skaters who can barely stand straight on ice, in the name of so called "diversity".

That's an elitist attitude. And would not be accepted by the IOC. So if you want figure skating to get kicked out of the Olympics you can push for this path to be pursued. But then, get ready to never see great skaters from nations other than those you've hand picked. Skaters like Javier Fernandez or Denis Ten.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
I'm quite cynical when it comes to figure skating judging, so I think this is not about artistry at all and mostly about the judges feeling they have lost control of the outcomes. The new system would allow judges to more easily hold up politically favored skaters.

Bingo.

You can't do that much manipulation with tech scoring: GOE yes, but either a jump or spin or steps are done correctly or not.

But oh! the manipulation possibilities are ENDLESS with artistry. Endless.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
That's an elitist attitude. And would not be accepted by the IOC. So if you want figure skating to get kicked out of the Olympics you can push for this path to be pursued. But then, get ready to never see great skaters from nations other than those you've hand picked. Skaters like Javier Fernandez or Denis Ten.

I don't see skiing being knocked out of the Olympics. Wrong argument.
And yes, sports is elitist by nature. You have to be young, fit, talented and motivated. How discriminating!!
Sport is about fair and open competition, not about politically correct subjective quotas.
 

EdgeCall

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
I don't see skiing being knocked out of the Olympics. Wrong argument.
And yes, sports is elitist by nature. You have to be young, fit, talented and motivated. How discriminating!!
Sport is about fair and open competition, not about politically correct subjective quotas.

The Olympics were originally revived as an international social gathering to promote peace and mutual respect. Finding out who's "the best" was never its primary goal.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Still one idea is missing: Removing (the) three skaters per country limitation, making the skaters earn their participation in the competitions, rather than being dependent on federations.

This, whether it's a good idea or bad, would truly be a "radical" change. It would basically require the ISU to vote itself out of existence and create a new organization.

The reason is that the "members" of the ISU are not skaters but national federations. Each member pays its dues and gets to send its national champion to the World Championship. This principle has been compromised in various ways (like by minimum tech rules), but that's the core idea.

To change this would require that a majority of the members (small skating federations) would have to vote themselves out of the game. I can't see this happening under the current ISU Constitution.
 
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TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I'd rather see twenty Russian or Japanese skaters, than having them eliminated for Turkish or French Samoa skaters who can barely stand straight on ice, in the name of so called "diversity".

Pardon my delay in responding. I've just been revived from my fainting spell.

Surely you're not referencing the staggeringly beautiful and talented Alissa Agafonova?

True, I've compared her partner to a warthog, but who wouldn't be skating next to her?
 

Mango

Royal Chinet 👑🍽️
Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Poor Alper! :biggrin: Though I'm sure he probably thinks Alisa is beautiful as well.

I'm sorry Manitou but everyone deserves a chance. If that is being politically correct then I'd prefer that to some xenophobic type of organization.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Take a look at the JGP, notice how many Russians get to compete? Taking away the limit of 3, would make every competion a Russian National Competition.

No, a Russian National Competition is one where only Russians can compete. Nobody was talking about JGP events, we were talking about the World Championships. If 7 Russian ladies can qualify for the World Championships, then they should be competing there. The competition should be about ALL of the best skaters in the world competing. It doesn't matter what country someone comes from.

The only argument I can see to the contrary is that limited spots might make the skaters in a crowded country more competitive, since there is currently less opportunity for them to go to Worlds. I don't find this to be a wholly convincing argument, though, because there are only 3 podium spots available anyway. Everyone wants to be on the podium and will fight to get there.

As a compromise, you could institute a sliding scale on the minimum score needed for each athlete to qualify for Worlds. For example, 100 points minimum for a country to qualify 1 skater, 110 for 2 skaters, 120 for 3 skaters, 130 for 4 skaters, 140 for 5 skaters, etc (these numbers are just a representation).
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Take a look at the JGP, notice how many Russians get to compete? Taking away the limit of 3, would make every competion a Russian National Competition.

I am perfectly fine with it. Others will have to step up to compete and that's a good thing. Nothing should come for free.
 

Sweet Dream

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
I am not against any reform on the current scoring/judging system, but to have some technical champion, artistic one and the all-around at the same event? Such exteme ideas sound really crazy! How many World/Olympic Champions will be turned out by such possible crazy change? What Champion has more net value, to be exact? Honestly, All of them are only sportsmen, not the so-called "Artists on Ice", so please think things over before moving forward.
 

DorYiu

Let’s go crazy
On the Ice
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
i think one of the things here, if I may, is that there is always comments saying... bleh... quads... who cares.... well there are amazing high, well rotated, textbook quads.... that are just as beautiful than the triples... but with one more turn.... and I think that it makes skating even more exciting when such jumps happen... same with a gorgeous triple axel with lots of ice coverage.

So the issue here is not jumps nor quad jumps.. it's bad jumps....

one simple solution : do like diving or aerials.... punish more for jumps that are not landed on one foot... punish more for jumps that turn into falls... then skaters will take less risks and quality will be better... at the same time, those with gorgeous 3A or gorgeous quads will still be able to shine and keep the enthusiasm of fans alive.
...

Well said, really well said :clap:

I still remember for the first time, when I saw a well executed quad successfully landed in front of me, I feel SO excited, it's beautiful and it's powerful! Quad definitely have its value in the program (so is other jumps), and I enjoy spins and steps as well, music, gesture , facial expressions , because all of it is what makes the program complete.

I understand that's they first change the rules and increase the BV of quads in order to push for quads, now they have achieved the purpose, so I think ISU should think about ending the 'promotion period' for quads, and stop rewarding for falls. The top man have proven that quads are possible, and the rewards is huge (if you manage to land it). So even if fall = zero, there will still be future skaters keep challenging quads in order to get to the top. But with the big risk that comes with fail to land a quad, they will have to make sure they have higher success rate in landing the quad in competition before they put it into the program.

As I am typing this, I suddenly start to realise why they want to have an artistry program and a technical program... because it is understandable that some skaters were just not designed to do quads, but they are still awesome skaters... :hopelessness: (it doesn't mean I think it's fine to the separation of the artistry & technical program.)
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States

I don't get why some people say jumps in figure skating are the thing that attracts audience.


I could not agree more. Not long ago I showed some of my favorite recent programs to a friend who doesn't watch figure skating regularly and her comment was, "Oh, so it's all about the jumps now." She had always considered it a well-rounded sport that required both athleticism and artistry.

:agree: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :agree:

When one 'thumbs up' just isn't enough!
 

singerskates

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
If the ISU is willing to make radical changes, have they considered other competition formats? For example, if a duel/knock-out system similar to tennis, parallel slalom or ski jumping was viable in FS, it would bring new aspects into the sport. The IJS points would be unnecessary, there would just be an odd number of judges to decide after each duel who was better. Skating times would necessarily be shorter, maybe something around 1:30. Such a system could replace the SP as a technical challenge, while the IJS could be adjusted for the FS to become the artistic part. At least the competitions would be more diversified than just two programs of the same format and only different scoring.
The ISU has a jumping competition already and it's not very popular.
 
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