'Radical change' could be on the way | Page 11 | Golden Skate

'Radical change' could be on the way

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I am perfectly fine with it. Others will have to step up to compete and that's a good thing. Nothing should come for free.

It's important to make skating well rounded so that it grows in popularity in countries where it's not as big. Obviously the top 100 Russian juniors could beat someone from a small country but allowing only the best to compete is a hindrance to the globalization of the sport, which is arguably more important.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
It's important to make skating well rounded so that it grows in popularity in countries where it's not as big. Obviously the top 100 Russian juniors could beat someone from a small country but allowing only the best to compete is a hindrance to the globalization of the sport, which is arguably more important.

Personally, I don’t care about “globalization” of figure skating. I want to see the best of the best, wherever they are from. If they are all from Russia, or from Japan, or from Venezuela, so be it.
I understand about Olympics having own rules, that’s fine. However, the World Championships is about the best. No enforced “diversity” or “equality”. The best, period.
 

madison

Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
Personally, I don’t care about “globalization” of figure skating. I want to see the best of the best, wherever they are from. If they are all from Russia, or from Japan, or from Venezuela, so be it.
I understand about Olympics having own rules, that’s fine. However, the World Championships is about the best. No enforced “diversity” or “equality”. The best, period.

Or they can make a mixed rule of representation: take the best figure skaters (regardless of country of origin) and then impose a quota of skaters from countries where figure skating is underdeveloped.
 

sailormoon

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Country
Japan
It is planned to reduce more than 10% of the base value of a quadruple jump and short and free programs will be replaced by technical and artistic ones, for which medals will be awarded separately. I think these change will be made to undermine the dominance of quad jumpers such as Yuzuru and Nathan, which will give more winning opportunities for artistic skaters like Patrick Chan.
 

madison

Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
It is planned to reduce more than 10% the base value of a quadruple jump and short and free programs will be replaced by technical and artistic ones, for which medals will be awarded separately. I think these change will be made to undermine the dominance of quad jumpers such as Yuzuru and Nathan, which will give more winning opportunities for artistic skaters like Patrick Chan.

It depends what they understand through technical and artistic program.... in a way now the short program is more based on the tech aspects, whereas the free program on the artistic part.... I personally don't believe in a radical change and that radical change could work.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
However, the World Championships is about the best. No enforced “diversity” or “equality”. The best, period.

That's what you want it to be. You're not alone in your desire.

However, historically, that has not been what the World Figure Skating Championships "is" about.

Worlds had always welcomed at least one skater from each member federation.

Sometimes there were cuts after school figures/compulsory dances. And cuts after short programs, which are still in effect. Some years there were qualifying rounds, the scores or placements from which did or didn't carry over to the final results for those who made it to the final. But until just a few years ago, every single ISU member federation was allowed to enter one skater/team per discipline in the first competition phase of the World Championships. In that sense "World" meant "open to the whole world."

Recently the use of minimum technical scores has restricted entry to skaters who have demonstrated a minimum level of technical mastery, well below what it takes to contend for medals. The limits have as much to do with keeping the fields small enough that they can save the expense of holding qualifying rounds as they do with ensuring a minimum skill level.

So there is no move to allowing more than 3 skaters per federation per discipline.

"Best of the best" is what the Grand Prix Final is for. If the goal is to give more opportunities to showcase more of the best skaters in the world at a high-profile prestigious event, maybe the answer would be to expand the Grand Prix Final to include two warmup groups worth of skaters in each discipline, and to expand the weekly Grand Prix events themselves to three warmup groups worth.
 

madison

Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
I don't like the proposal to separate the technical and the artistic part. The idea is to mix these 2 and to create a unitary programme.
Who will watch only elements: jumps after jumps and only artistic part: steps, maybe?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I don't like the proposal to separate the technical and the artistic part. The idea is to mix these 2 and to create a unitary programme.
Who will watch only elements: jumps after jumps and only artistic part: steps, maybe?

For the 100th time, they are not being separated, should this direction be taken. "Technical program" simply means skating as it already exists under the current scoring system and "Artistic program" means a program with less required jumps and no levels on footwork and spins.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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United-States
For the 100th time, they are not being separated. "Technical program" simply means skating as it already exists under the current scoring system and "Artistic program" means a program with less required jumps and no levels on footwork and spins.

Hmm...that sounds alright to me. Can we shorten it up a bit too ;)
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
For the 100th time, they are not being separated, should this direction be taken. "Technical program" simply means skating as it already exists under the current scoring system and "Artistic program" means a program with less required jumps and no levels on footwork and spins.

But aren't there already avenues for fans of this type of skating? Shows and galas?

Personally, I tend to watch competitions and skip galas. Why wouldn't other kinds of fans skip the competitions and watch shows and galas.

I share your nostalgia for those kinds of programs - I often watch older classic performances. I wish more were widely available before 1970 or so.

But I'm not interested in watching current competitions full of 1970's content.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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France
But aren't there already avenues for fans of this type of skating?

No, there aren't. Competition means competition. Shows and galas are not competition and have no rules at all.

The artistic programs are not going to have "1970's" content, a full range of Triples will be needed.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
No, there aren't. Competition means competition. Shows and galas are not competition and have no rules at all.

The artistic programs are not going to have "1970's" content, a full range of Triples will be needed.

Honestly and sincerely, I am not trying to pick a fight.

But it sounds as though you are advocating for competitions/championships/medals for skaters who are unable to achieve the highest technical levels in the sport.

Again emphasizing that I love old-school skating, I am wondering how this fits with the concept of sport. Art? Sure. Serious sport? I don't see it.
 

Lota

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Wow, don't know how I've managed to miss this thread but wow... those are some really bad ideas :palmf:

While I obviously don't know a quick fix to the problems the sport has, the one (really abstract) thing I really notice right now is the disbalance between the technical and artistic components of the sport. If those are supposed to be around 50/50 then... well... they're not. I don't think there should necessarily be an active "stop" to the quads and the technical growth, but there should be a much better balance. With the way scores are given out now, the skaters are discouraged from perfecting the elements they have and encouraged to try far more difficult things, however badly performed (once again, encouraging difficulty in and of itself is not a bad thing at all). But there should be a chance for a well-performed artistically and well-executed technically program to be close in points to a poorly performed but more technically challenging program. They are not close enough in my opinion. You are always better off with a technically difficult but artistically "lesser"program (unless you have a complete fiasco with your jumps). Obviously, a champion should be able to masterfully combine both the technical and the artistic aspects. But from the skaters' point of view, I don't see much point in working a lot on the artistic aspect if the one that is really valued is the technical one. I have no idea how to fix that though. Mark the well-executed elements higher and badly-executed ones lower?

It's also interesting to think about whether the sport needs a new system or just a complete mental restart with this one (with a few minor changes made), where the judges really think which elements actually deserve +3, maybe the BVs of some elements are changed, etc.

tl;dr There is no balance between the artistic and technical aspects of the sport, imo. Either change the judging system somewhat, or change the idea of the sport being half this half that.
 

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~
Medalist
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
I'm quite cynical when it comes to figure skating judging, so I think this is not about artistry at all and mostly about the judges feeling they have lost control of the outcomes. The new system would allow judges to more easily hold up politically favored skaters.

Man, that is like the most upvoted post I've ever seen here so far. I quite agree. Artistry alone is pretty subjective, and given how much PCS have already swayed scores away from what they really should have, a program based entirely on PCS is basically a free-for-all depending on the people scoring it.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I am wondering how this fits with the concept of sport. Art? Sure. Serious sport? I don't see it.

Figure skating is not only a sport and it's no less "serious" to grow as a performer and artist while still being an athlete. The level of training and talent needed to achieve a brilliant performance while doing jumps, spins, and footwork is immense. The skills needed to achieve such a thing are being pushed further and further out of current figure skating, as people in the current scoring system care less about creating the most pleasing form possible and the most exciting choreography possible, all while giving a perfect interpretation of the music.

Some of those skills are largely technical anyway, such as doing a brilliant spiral sequence. The combination of flexibility, core strength, and edge control that's required to do a great spiral sequence is no longer measured in figure skating anymore. It was killed off. Michelle Kwan never would have been Michelle Kwan without this technical ability that was used in an artistic manner, creating some of the most emotional and sweeping choreographic moments ever produced in the sport.

Creating different modes of competition is not so different than what exists in other sports. In swimming you have the backstroke, the breaststroke, the butterfly, and the normal mode. Plus the relays, and different lengths of laps for all of those different modes. Should the freestyle swimming competitions all be cancelled just because a normal forward stroke is "easier" than doing butterfly stroke?
 

rabbit1234

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
For example

Correlation between falls or deductions with PCS of KOLYADA 's FP
Mikhail KOLYADA

85.90 25th Ondrej Nepela Trophy deduction 3.00
81.42 Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2017 deduction 2.00
89.00 ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017 deduction 4.00

He is doing the same choreography and performance of the same program in a short period of time.

As the number of falls increases, the PCS score gets higher.:shocked:
There are three falls and updating PCS's personal best is strange.:roll5:
Is this because it was held at KOLYADA 's home country?

The situation of GOE is similar.
For the same element of the same competitor, one judge evaluates to +2, while the other judge evaluates to -2 frequently happens.

I think that broadening the discretion of opaque judges such as PCS and GOE will lead to making the competition opaque and political.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Personally, I don’t care about “globalization” of figure skating. I want to see the best of the best, wherever they are from. If they are all from Russia, or from Japan, or from Venezuela, so be it.
I understand about Olympics having own rules, that’s fine. However, the World Championships is about the best. No enforced “diversity” or “equality”. The best, period.

How exactly is it the *World* Junior Championships if like 90^ (or whatever) entries are from 3 or 4 countries?

If we think of Olympic sports like diving where China is dominant would it be fair to have the majority of World championship entries be from there? Or women's hockey should it just be A, B, C and D teams from USA and Canada and forget everyone else? Should the NBA be allowed to send 8 Dream teams of US players to every Olympics and monopolize the podium?

Look at Russian Senior Nationals, where pretty much a 3-3 is standard and think about how many countries have skaters that are just trying to get consistent triples on their own. We would never see them compete at a World Championship if only the best skaters (all countries combined with no cap on entries per country) were allowed to compete.
 
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