'Radical change' could be on the way

enlight78 · Sep 11, 2017

I think that if the goal is to promote balance of artistry and technical, the easiest thing to do is to increase how many points one can get from program components or reduce the value of all technical elements proportionately. These changes are unfair to good jumpers and they segregate the skaters. For men right now in lp you can get 130 points in Tech but but only 100 PC, just increase the PC to 130 so skaters will have more incentives to focus on the presentation. Or limit jumping passes to something like 6.

Bluediamonds09 · Sep 11, 2017

Or maybe, all that needs to be done is use the scoring system the CORRECT way, and give points where points should be given, and understand that high TES does not equal higher PCS , and give a lifetime ban to judges caught cheating.

Now was that so hard?

Skatefan15 · Sep 11, 2017

These proposals make no sense:noshake:

Suze · Sep 11, 2017

I agree with the majority of responses that this is a BAD idea. Figure skating is special because of this combination of athletic ability with choreography and artistic interpretation. If you separate these two, it will be 1) harder to argue if the Olympics decides to remove figure skating as a winter "sport" and 2) a free-for-all at competitions where judges can pick whoever they want without any real basis - beauty in the eye of the beholder, yea? More like their purse pocket.

I was hoping they had made some technological leap with rinks becoming equipped to autodetect blade edge take-off, touch downs, etc. I think technology is going to be the answer for achieving greater fairness and objectivity in this sport.

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 11, 2017

I wonder if these "radical" proposals have anything to do with the all too common "radical" responses to skater's performances the ISU sees on social media and other figure skating related platforms.

Barb · Sep 11, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Not every skater does Cirque du Soleil contortions. I think we can all agree that the quality of spins are better than in the past if you look at the quality of spins in the field as a whole nowadays versus the quality of spins in the field as a whole under 6.0.

Yeah, there are many skaters who are doing spin positions that are strained and ugly, but most spins have improved -- especially basic positions.

Precisely today I was saying how ugly Evgenia´s positions are, someone answered that it is ok, that the point was to get a difficult position, not to get a ballet position, as far as I know, Sasha, Mao, Shizuka and Satoko are not ballet dancers (they get great positions), so people is accepting easily that while an element is difficult it is not important the aesthetics or the quality of the element. It does not matter that the choreography does not make sense or is ugly, as long as it is difficult because it is plagued with transitions that do not contribute anything to the program and while the jumps are in the second half for extra points.

But I agree that this could hurt the marketing of the sport, because people only understand about jumps, they do not appreciate anything else, that's why ice dance is not popular. Even among fans, most of people are always focused about jumps. People thinks that step sequeces are boring because they think that there is no way this could be aesthetically pleasing, but the reality is that they don´t accept that her/his favorite skater is mediocre with step sequences. There is a reason why step seq of ice dancers look so different from singles.

el henry · Sep 11, 2017

Whatever everyone on this Board may think about the proposals, *no one* and I mean *no one* on this Board is a "casual fan". If you can count revolutions in the air, if you know what edge skaters are taking off from, and whether it's the right one, you are not not not a casual fan. And I mean that in the nicest possible way:agree:

Nor do any of us (and I include my own sweet self in this sample) *know* what does and does not make figure skating popular, unless one of us is running a marketing research firm contracted to the ISU.

However, based on my own sampling of everyone I know and people I've met, my impeccable logic leads me to conclude that the "casual fan", when it comes to jumps, cares about jumps that are landed. Period. They don't care about revolutions, edges, flips, waxels, flutzes and faxels . They think we're funny for using those words (including the one I made up :laugh:

.) And they certainly don't care about "Oh my Laaawwd, we have to jump more revolutions and jump higher, cause it's a SPOOOOOORT". Never, ever, have I heard that, except from fans dedicated enough to frequent figure skating boards. :biggrin:

In my experience, these casual fans care very much about a comprehensive program that includes more than jumps. They want a program that makes sense with the music chosen, they care very much about step sequences, they like to see difficult, intricate, mind-bending spins. Skills which are just as athletic, difficult to master, and admirable as jumps.

And since that's what I've heard, and what I know, it must be so!

eace: Does this proposal help that? Beats me. But if it does, then I say go for it:yes:

4everchan · Sep 11, 2017

el henry said:
Whatever everyone on this Board may think about the proposals, *no one* and I mean *no one* on this Board is a "casual fan". If you can count revolutions in the air, if you know what edge skaters are taking off from, and whether it's the right one, you are not not not a casual fan. And I mean that in the nicest possible way:agree:

Nor do any of us (and I include my own sweet self in this sample) *know* what does and does not make figure skating popular, unless one of us is running a marketing research firm contracted to the ISU.

However, based on my own sampling of everyone I know and people I've met, my impeccable logic leads me to conclude that the "casual fan", when it comes to jumps, cares about jumps that are landed. Period. They don't care about revolutions, edges, flips, waxels, flutzes and faxels . They think we're funny for using those words (including the one I made up .) And they certainly don't care about "Oh my Laaawwd, we have to jump more revolutions and jump higher, cause it's a SPOOOOOORT". Never, ever, have I heard that, except from fans dedicated enough to frequent figure skating boards.

In my experience, these casual fans care very much about a comprehensive program that includes more than jumps. They want a program that makes sense with the music chosen, they care very much about step sequences, they like to see difficult, intricate, mind-bending spins. Skills which are just as athletic, difficult to master, and admirable as jumps.

And since that's what I've heard, and what I know, it must be so!eace: Does this proposal help that? Beats me. But if it does, then I say go for it:yes:

I show skating to my non-skating fans... one of them came over for dinner saturday.

I showed her a few of the men from Canadian Nationals...

She gasps at a few things : Nic Nadeau's 4loop, Patrick's 3A and 4t-3t.

She loved basic spins positions compared to the circus ones

She didn't care for jumps UNLESS they were 3A or quads ....

Of course, she didn't like falls...

She thought Nic's 2loop (doubled) look puny and silly.

She really enjoyed big jumps.

In the end, she connected with those two skaters the most because of their jumps and also their musicality. She loved Elvis Nadeau

but when she saw Patrick, she was like.. WOW...

I swear, I didn't put any Patrick love potion in her drink

What I am trying to say here is that yes... you are correct, most people will prefer a good triple lutz compared to a botched quad attempt... my friend, and she is not the first one who goes through my skating shenanigans, disliked falls... she made me stop the program of one skater I won't name here who was falling all over the place.

BUT : she was VERY thrilled about quads because, even if she was like asking what those jumps were and had no idea how hard they were, she could "see" that they are bigger and with more "turns"

So I wouldn't take for granted that people don't care about quads or difficult jumps... even the least trained eye can notice that some jumps are more difficult than others.

One thing she loved : combos....

and another thing that got her attention : step sequences... now... most people in quebec are born with ice skates on... for "hockey purposes" so we have all pretty much skated a few times in our life... but on two feet and forward only LOL... so for her, to see one foot skating in all directions, and twizzles was very impressive... she was like " how do they do that???? omg!!!"

just thought i'd share this in answer to your comment.

As far as I know, we don't know what they will implement yet... so I am waiting for it to happen... in the meantime, i am going to enjoy skating as I know it... until it changes.. once again...

SkaterX · Sep 12, 2017

Seems like a bad idea to me. I don't think skating is exciting enough without the jumps. If this idea of splitting artistic and athletic programs goes through, in the end we'll have purely jumping competitions because no one will want to watch a really long step sequence.

badknees · Sep 12, 2017

Bluediamonds09 said:
Or maybe, all that needs to be done is use the scoring system the CORRECT way, and give points where points should be given, and understand that high TES does not equal higher PCS , and give a lifetime ban to judges caught cheating.

Now was that so hard?

Totally agree!

badknees · Sep 12, 2017

SkaterX said:
Seems like a bad idea to me. I don't think skating is exciting enough without the jumps. If this idea of splitting artistic and athletic programs goes through, in the end we'll have purely jumping competitions because no one will want to watch a really long step sequence.

Yup, agree with this.

badknees · Sep 12, 2017

Wow, a "Smart Rink" would be soooo cool. Oh, but then it would get hacked!

badknees · Sep 12, 2017

kiches said:
If these are the proposed changes the ISU has in mind I have to say that overall I am extremely disappointed. A lot of what was proposed seems to be reactionary to try and mitigate the effects of the judges not using the system properly. On paper I don't have a lot of issues with the structure of the scoring system, but I think the implementation of it needs a lot of work and the changes mentioned in this article seems like it allows more room for variables and doesn't address the implementation issues.

In my mind these are the pros and cons.

Pros:
- Adjusting the BV of jumps. I do think some BV are too high where even -3 GOE still nets you quite a few points. I disagree with lowering it for triples, especially the axel as it seems very few skaters have strong axels.

- Wider spread of GOE - This goes in both my pros and cons. I agree with the intent to award quality and having the GOE increments be tied to BV, but if they want to award quality, they can start doing it now and don't need scoring changes to do so. It's not like we're seeing a ton of people get +3, but we're probably not seeing proper issuing of lower GOE.

Cons:
- Using Boyang's picture for this article, but as Icenetwork is US based I'm not surprised they didn't put Nathan's photo instead, yet they still asked him for a comment any way.

- Separating programs into an athletic and artistic program. The beauty of figure skating is the combination of both aspects. In my opinion, those who have mastery over the technical aspects of their skating (and I don't mean just jumps) are able to afford more energy to focus on the performance, presentation, and their expression in their program. To me the technical and performance aspects of skating are linked in this way, and should remain linked if it wants to continue as a sport in the Olympics.

- Separate medals for both artistry and athleticism, and overall. This is linked to my point above. I'm not sure what purpose an "artistry" medal has in a sport. I imagine there are already artistic skating competitions in existence, so why does these need to be further divided? How exactly are you supposed to measure and score "artistry" objectively? It just sounds like they want to hand out more awards and medals to make people feel good about themselves. It's all very frivolous and about as useless as a pewter medal in my opinion.

- Wider spread of GOE - I think this has more cons than it does pros. I feel that GOE is where we see a lot of inconsistency in judging, expanding the range from -3 to +3 to -5 to +5 seems like you're asking for even more inconsistency and subjectivity. As it stands, it's not as if the judges are using the full breadth of GOE, so what makes them think increasing the range will fix that? I would've preferred to see the the GOE stay within the -3 to 3 range but allow the judges to use 0.5 increments, but I suspect that they're scared people can't handle decimals. I agree with Kori Ade's comments about judges being overly generous on GOE for quads of dubious quality and without preceding steps. I know they recently changed the wording for the requirement into the solo jump in the SP and removed the word "difficult" for the steps before a solo jump. It now says "creative, interesting, original" which is even less definitive and gives more room for interpretation from the judges. They should be working in the other direction to leave as little up to human interpretation during judging as possible.

- Reducing programs by 30 seconds: Why pretend this is part of an attempt at balancing the TES and PCS? I thought this was being done for practical purposes to shorten the length of competitions for TV broadcasts? I also think this will limit an athletes ability to focus on both aspects of their skating.

Overall, these proposals seem very convoluted and illogical, so I had to laugh when Bianchetti said, "markings will be more logical and consistent". Is there any other sport that introduces convoluted scoring rules and changes in an attempt to correct for inconsistencies with judging rather than address the actual judges themselves?

Love this last sentence! Really makes your mind wander back to the last olympics, where high TES made for high PCS. Just think of the results if COP had been used and scored correctly.

noskates · Sep 12, 2017

You know - it was a sport when they were only doing doubles. It was a sport when they were doing triples. Why all of a sudden is it only a "sport" if they're doing quads? There WILL be injuries. There have already been injuries. I'm sorry but Nathen Chen and Boyang are not artistic. I also don't think Hanyu has been deserving of the high PCS he's received. I've been watching figure skating for over 40 years and I do not, unpopularly I'm sure, like the trend that seems to be happening. There needs to be a balance. There currently isn't a balance. Any sport that is judged by humans is going to have its faults. We have many faults now. There is NO consistency and I don't see the IFS or the USFSA or any of the country's federations coming up with anything to change that. Sad.

nipman · Sep 12, 2017

OK, let's do like the diving: replace the SP by a technical performance with 6 jumping passes for men and 5 for women. There will be no limit for the difficulty of each jump, it means you can do anything, from a 2A to a 4T-3T-3R, with various entries and with or without transition between the jumps. No spin or Stsq allowed. Who has the highest technical points (BV + GOE) will win, and 24 best jumpers will be qualified for the FP.

Then in the FP, the number of jumping passes will be reduced to give place to artistic elements. Everything else will be like now. The PCS will weight about 60% of the total score (that means TES ~40% of total score). The one with highest total score will win.

Mango · Sep 12, 2017

This discussion is making me think about what's going to happen to ice dance. If we apply the same rules to ice dance then the SD will end up being an athletic program while the FD will become the artistic program. Well, it's already that way but it would become more official and there'd be no reason for the ISU to even think of considering other styles of FD from what we see at the top now.

xeyra · Sep 12, 2017

I just realized their proposed new Base Values for jumps place them at lower values than they had before 2010. A 4T was worth 9.8 in 2008, and went to 10.3 in 2010, and now they'll lower it to 9.5. Same with all the other quads and triples (except the flip, that one escaped unharmed); all base values will be lower than they were before Vancouver.

euroskate · Sep 12, 2017

I am surprised not surprised to read so much hatred towards ISU and judging :slink:

it´s very easy to say "I dont like that idea" but then just come up with something you think would work icreasing the numbers of spectators and followers!

The Judging System and ist Points were designed to EQUAL OUT technical side and componenets at 50-50 % rate . Since the tecnical side increased so much the last years it does not equal out. so what to do? For me more Logical would be to Change the factor or PCS to increase it´s value again. Then there would not be so much fuss about the iSU reducing quads.

to shorten the program is also because simply one skater takes to Long and to have 24 takes like forever. and noone wants to watch this long. to reduce number of Skaters is not in favor of the smaller countries and also would make the Sport die there. also when there are less elements the judging should be quicker obviosly.
another possibility would be world FINALE A and FINALE B or something like that.

then the last Point. THERE ARE TOO MANY INJURIES LATELY especially in pairs. So of course the sports leaders HAVE TO to something about that.

so please stop the coplaining and come up with good ideas instead

Globetrotter · Sep 12, 2017

As in everything, there is a mix of pluses and minuses with the new proposal.

Plus points:
- Idea of achieving a better balance between PCS and TES scores is conceptually good.
- Reducing the base value of the 4Lz and 4F looks reasonable - if anything, I think they should even be reduced below that of a 4R which does not have a toepick to vault
- Switching the GOE to a defined % of the BV is less arbitrary than trying to explain why +2 on 3Lz is 1.4 but +2 on 3A is +1

Minus points:
- The method of achieving TES and PCS balance by reducing BV throughout is inadequate - why not reduce one jumping pass? Why not increase the PCS factoring?
- High TES contribution is partially due to +GOEs being dished out too easily - if the guidance on GOE award is more strictly implemented, this will make more sense than spreading out the range
- One athletic and one artistic programme feels iffy - FS is a combination of sports and art. Besides, the PCS also has a technical aspect to it, namely the qualitative SS and TR. I will still prefer to stick to a SP and LP with the SP having a set number of defined elements
- Reducing the LP to 4 min seems overly rushed and I am not convinced it will get to more artistry
- Cutting the BV of the 3A to 8.0 - too much, a forward edge launch is more difficult that just a 3.5 turn taken off backward. I say keep the 8.5 - on the ladies end, this gives an extra incentive to earn it

Other points not addressed
- Rewarding difficult combo e.g. those ending with 3R beyond just the sum of BV
- Complex, uninspiring StSq under current rules; will rather define it to either a straight line, circular or serpentine footwork to be completed in say 40s so only those with really good edge work and blade control will achieve level 4 instead of watching the slow painful and full-of-effort StSq to squeeze out a Lvl4
- 10% bonus rule; a tiered bonus to BV (e.g. 5% from 2:30 to 3:00, 7.5% 3 to 3:30, 10% remainder) to me rewards difficulty rather than a flat 10% for jumps after half time

noidont · Sep 12, 2017

I've been to a lot of competitions now. Overall what a lay audience cares about: showmanship, music people can easily clap with, jumps, spins, in that order. Ice dance actually has a special attractiveness because of those luxe costumes. Falls really irk people and bad falls make people go all gaspy. I suppose this is the criteria ISU is thinking about.

'Radical change' could be on the way

enlight78

Bluediamonds09

Skatefan15

Suze

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Barb

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

4everchan

SkaterX

badknees

badknees

badknees

badknees

noskates

nipman

Mango

Royal Chinet 👑🍽️

xeyra

Constant state

euroskate

Globetrotter

noidont

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